New spells discussion thread.

[meyers]

The Shadowknight Runic: Scream of Horror rules and I can definitely see that becoming a permanent fixture in my spell bar. It's various benefits (huge oh shit aggro) are exactly what the class needed, giving someone huge aggro for a very short amount of time. I would almost prefer it to be self only so that I wouldn't have to bother toggling targets in a heated situation. The recast of 6 minute 66 seconds is icing on the cake.

On the other hand, unless the pet summoned by Runic: Agent of Kaezul is really rad, I can't see myself using that at all. 50 spell AC is not worth keeping a free buff/spell slot, especially since it only lasts 2 ticks. Of course, this could all change depending on the pet's abilities.

My grouping spell set generally looks like:
Terror of Kaezul
Terror of Marlow
Deflux
Wave of Enfeeblement
Vortex of Death
Shout of Agony
Voice of Kaezul
Death Peace

I can easily see myself dropping Voice for Scream of Horror, but I would be hard pressed to swap the runic pet in for any of those. I want to stress yet again that my opinion could easily change depending on the actual abilities on the pet.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about well then you can wait for the post above me to update!!!

 

[Xach]

You should post what the spell does.

 

[Eustace]

For the ranger spells...the quiver looks ok. It may be preferable in some situations over other quivers already available, or it may not. It really all depends upon aggro.

As for the pet spell, it's a horrible idea. The idea that it goes along with ranger lore also doesn't fly, as most people are confusing rangers with druids in that aspect. Rangers are hunters. Hunters protect the forest against poachers by killing them. Hunters protect the forest against disease by killing diseased animals. A caring hunter does not bandage a wounded animal, he simply ends their suffering faster by finishing them off. With that stated, an ancient form of firefist would definately be more in line with the class than a buff that's going to severely detract from the main reason people take rangers into raids - dps. The dps lost from the ranger casting a rune on a pet is not going to increase overall raid dps by keeping that pet alive longer, especially if the pet is taking melee damage from rampage, whirlwind, pulling aggro, etc.

As an aside, the mana cost for that spell is really high for the class. We have more important things to waste mana on, like Icerend, during a fight. (My icerend>your pet's DPS during the time it takes to beat off that 2k rune on a raid mob.)

 

[Severien]

The purpose of the ranger spell is to give them a reason to be on the raid. Their contributions thus far are limited as all they can really do to help the raid is to cast an annoying +attack buff that really only they want, and to add dps. And you can easily add a different dps class to achieve the same thing.

This spell is to give them their niche.

The whole part where Rangers are often the highest melee dps in the game (situational) and can often do it out of AoE range obviously doesn't merit a raid spot...
Keeping someone's pet alive is an ass niche to be in. You can just keep that niche to yourself, I'll roll a rogue if it gets pushed on the class.

Also plenty of classes besides Ranger can benefit from Predator and request it often.

 

[Dzillon]

Im removing my statement if Shelter of the Ancients is not raidwide-pet . For some reason I thought it was all the pets in the raid on range ; but if its only one pet it's really not interesting enough I admit.
I think the first version of the Shelter line, that BST & RNG were supposed to get , were raidwide-pet, wasn't it ?

 

[Eustace]

Now if we could get off the "you're made for dps just don't move an inch bitch" I wouldn't mind. So what, rangers shouldn't use Chloroblast ever either ?
EDIT : actually you might not be pleased to hear that so just don't use it when it comes out.

I actually had Ratkon chew me out in a group for icerending instead of healing him. Had I to do it over again, I would continue icerending as before.

The purpose of the ranger spell is to give them a reason to be on the raid. Their contributions thus far are limited as all they can really do to help the raid is to cast an annoying +attack buff that really only they want, and to add dps. And you can easily add a different dps class to achieve the same thing.

This spell is to give them their niche.

Xach, many people request CotP and actually get mad if they're ignored. As for their niche, Rangers are ranged melee dps classes. This is why I say "A meleeing ranger is an afk ranger." There are many, many instances where I can out-range AOE's and do max dps. I never get hit by whirlwind on raids. I never get hit by rampage on raids. However, there is a price to pay: You have to keep hitting the range attack key. It's not a job for the lazy.

I for one will never, ever stopping hitting my range key or detarget a raid mob to cast rune on someone else's pet. The only way I would ever use this is if I could throw on the lvl 4 fire pet that pops out of the torch you get from the flameseer, to help lowbies level up. Using this spell on a raid would detract from my primary role in a raid: providing ranged melee dps at maximum efficiency.

Every other mained ranger I have spoken with in game agrees with me that this is a really horrid idea, and we would all prefer a better firefist - even if nothing on it was improved but a longer duration.

 

[Severien]

I'd be happy with a raidwide buff that makes mobs have a chance to avoid AEs because then I can set it and forget it instead of burning valuble mana and time spent off-dps every 30 seconds. It may not do much to help the ranger (which seems like a good idea to include in a ranger spell) but at least its not negatively impacting my DPS and it makes pet classes happy. If its going to be a rune with a recast I have no interest in it even if it hits an entire raid in an entirely different zone.

 

[Eustace]

After careful consideration, I'd like to suggest that the quiver proc have a very large -aggro attached to it on proc or just by having the buff up, preferably both. -ac and -atk both cause a massive amount of aggro, and that's the last thing we want. I already can't use Quiver of the Sun in groups or raids: it's a kite-only buff. That quiver proc wouldn't convince me to use another other than flame or ice, as per now.

 

[Dzillon]

I actually had Ratkon chew me out in a group for icerending instead of healing him. Had I to do it over again, I would continue icerending as before.

Wouldn't have changed that we wiped that day.

 

[Eustace]

Wouldn't have changed that we wiped that day.

We didn't wipe, I ended up tanking all 5 mobs with no problem, but that's beside the point. The point here is that if we look over the list of spells, all other classes except rangers here get a boost in one way or another. Both spells listed for rangers will actually inhibit the class except in very rare situations. This is due in my belief to a misunderstanding of what roles rangers currently fulfill and to where they class is heading.

From a role-play perspective, rangers are guardians of the forest because that's their livelihood. They hunt by stalking and stealth, which is why male rangers get the title "Prowler" from AA's. In battles, rangers are the archers. They look for and point out weak places in opponent's armor. They mow the enemy down before they can rush the gate with a battering ram or place their ladders on the city walls. Despite this, rangers never kill in the forest or on the battlefield without an idea of what's going on. They don't take down a buck in his prime with a harem of does because that negatively impacts the sustainability of the food source from the forest. (See Martin Longbow from Feist's Riftwar and Serpentwar sagas.)

Were I to suggest new ranger spells from a pure RP aspect, I'd have two things in mind: A single-cast very large AC/ATK debuff and a new group-wide camo that nothing could see through and rooted/silenced the group for its duration. Those are both in-line with the role rangers currently play and would positively benefit the role-play aspect of the class.

 

[Noktar]

I think both ranger spells are very good as they are now and I would def be happier with a ranger on a raid then I am now. And I am already quite happy to have them.

 

[Xach]

Xach, many people request CotP and actually get mad if they're ignored. As for their niche, Rangers are ranged melee dps classes. This is why I say "A meleeing ranger is an afk ranger." There are many, many instances where I can out-range AOE's and do max dps. I never get hit by whirlwind on raids. I never get hit by rampage on raids. However, there is a price to pay: You have to keep hitting the range attack key. It's not a job for the lazy.

I for one will never, ever stopping hitting my range key or detarget a raid mob to cast rune on someone else's pet. The only way I would ever use this is if I could throw on the lvl 4 fire pet that pops out of the torch you get from the flameseer, to help lowbies level up. Using this spell on a raid would detract from my primary role in a raid: providing ranged melee dps at maximum efficiency.

Every other mained ranger I have spoken with in game agrees with me that this is a really horrid idea, and we would all prefer a better firefist - even if nothing on it was improved but a longer duration.

So, what you're saying is you're happy playing a class that is easily replaced by caster dps?

 

[cyryllis]

I'm not even a ranger and I think its an extremely poor idea for a spell- and no Id never replace our rangers with caster dps....because if a caster runs out of mana on a long fight- oh shit....if a ranger runs out of mana- who cares? No one, because their dps is still insanely sweet and its nice to not have to heal them....they kind of stand off in the distance and do their thing most of the time.


How about let them get a self only buff that has a ranged lifetap proc that heals pets raid wide if you insist on saving those little pieces of crap?

 

[robopirateninja]

It's not a job for the lazy.

I for one will never, ever stopping hitting my range key or detarget a raid mob to cast rune on someone else's pet.

Oh, OK.

Right now rangers add almost no utility to raids. With the changes to rampage, nobody but a tank should be getting hit by it, casters can dps from range and a rogue or monk will do WAY more damage on a fight where you're worried about casters going oom. The only time a ranger is the preferred dps option is on an incredibly long fight that also makes heavy use of whirlwind or has a large short-range aoe. The only real benefit a ranger adds to other classes is CotP, which is used by rangers, some rogues, and probably nobody else. (This becomes more and more true the higher you raid as you accumulate various clickies, need empty slots for debuff(s) or it becomes necessary to run additional resist buffs, potions, etc.)

These spells make a ranger better worth a raidslot, but yes, you may have to press more than one button to play a raiding ranger in the future.

 

[Eustace]

So, what you're saying is you're happy playing a class that is easily replaced by caster dps?

Spell dps and melee dps are two completely different ballgames. If you want to kick the rogues and rangers out of the raid so you can max out your total of 3 possible wizards and 3 possible mages be my guest, but don't complain to me when all your dps goes OOM and the mob still isn't dead because it keeps reflecting spells.

Xach, there may be a chance that someone who has mained nothing other than a ranger up to the high end on SoD knows a bit more about the class than you do. From experience, I can say that the primary role of a ranger in a raid is to provide, specifically, ranged melee dps. In groups, I primarily do the same thing although there are times when I am asked to tank. I most certainly do not want to see rangers put into play on SoD more as a pseudo-tank class despite the fact that I can easily pull aggro from nearly any warrior or SK in almost any situation.

Quiver of the Sun is currently not used in groups or raids by rangers because of the massive amount of aggro it causes with the blind proc, and the new quiver proc spell will be even worse in that regard. It is a kiting only buff. The new quiver proc will also only be used while kiting by any sensible ranger, and even then it's less likely to be used because it does less damage per proc than quiver of the sun. If you think it's a great idea to give rangers a spell that's so situational we can only use it when we plan to have the mobs chasing us, hooray for you.

The pet rune is kind of a slap in the face. The old AOE evasion bit for pets was tolerable, even though that particular spell would NEVER have a constant spot on the spell gem list of any ranger who was focused on doing max DPS in a group or a raid. The new proposed pro-pet spell is absolutely ridiculous. If you guys really think it's so fantastic, let's give that one to beastlords and mages, and instead of giving them a new pet spell, give rangers a pet spell that summons a giant floating crossbow that can follow us around and range attack when we do (idea credit for the ranger pet goes to Praxes).

One of the responses I keep seeing to this is, "If you don't like the spell, just never use it!" Here's a better idea: Why waste the time coding in two spells that nobody's going to use? If those two spells go in as stated here, I for one will never scribe them because they're both an insult to rangers, unless I can throw the pet rune on level 1 pets.

I think the real problem here is as Drello once told me, "Congratz, you found a way to make rangers not suck." Rangers don't suck if you actually take the time to get to know the class, which very few people have done on SoD. However, there's a general fear that anything done to give rangers a boost will overpower them because they're already borderline OP if they're fairly geared and in the hands of someone who knows how to work the class.

2 hour duration firefist. 'Nuff said.

 

[Eustace]

Oh, OK.

Right now rangers add almost no utility to raids. With the changes to rampage, nobody but a tank should be getting hit by it, casters can dps from range and a rogue or monk will do WAY more damage on a fight where you're worried about casters going oom. The only time a ranger is the preferred dps option is on an incredibly long fight that also makes heavy use of whirlwind or has a large short-range aoe. The only real benefit a ranger adds to other classes is CotP, which is used by rangers, some rogues, and probably nobody else. (This becomes more and more true the higher you raid as you accumulate various clickies, need empty slots for debuff(s) or it becomes necessary to run additional resist buffs, potions, etc.)

These spells make a ranger better worth a raidslot, but yes, you may have to press more than one button to play a raiding ranger in the future.

Uh...yeah. I out-dpsed Onikitsu 90% of the time in raids with Ruin. And what utility do rogues bring to a raid?

CotP is requested by Bards, Beastlords, Monks, Rogues, and Paladins. Yes, I said Paladins. Additionally, I've had mages and necros request that I recast CotP because they didn't have their pets out.

And while it's true that you may be raiding Sanctum now, keep in mind that I was raiding t10 with Ruin before you even had access to UT, Tyrone.

 

[robopirateninja]

If you're out dpsing a rogue he's a bad rogue or your gear isn't on par. (or you're referring to before ranger dps was balanced?) Rogues add utility from lockpicks and traps, but their primary raid contribution is, and is supposed to be melee dps. The role of the ranger is being expanded to make them competitive with classes that can do more dps better.

I can't look at everyone's buffbars but I'm stunned that beastlords, bards and paladins don't have better things to do with their buffslots.

And while it's true that you may be raiding Sanctum now, keep in mind that I was raiding t10 with Ruin before you even had access to UT, Tyrone.

What does this even mean? Tier 10 IS sanctum, and I don't think you ever raided it, and even if it wasn't how would that be relevant to anything I said?

 

[Nodnal]

Uh...yeah. I out-dpsed Onikitsu 90% of the time in raids with Ruin.
And while it's true that you may be raiding Sanctum now, keep in mind that I was raiding t10 with Ruin before you even had access to UT, Tyrone.

I am not sure where this came from, but I don't think I read anywhere that Tyrone claimed to know more because of his raid knowledge, or say anything to provoke this statement.

However, rangers are amazing and can be great offtanks as well as great ranged DPS (Flarewynd+Nightmare arrows is stupid DPS).

Anyways, this thread is getting way off topic. The new spells in Kunark will be adding utility (even if its bad, see also: lots of classes who get bad Runics) and won't add much to making classes straight out better.

If people have suggestions on what rangers spells should be added, or how to make the current developing ones to be better, then they should contribute, otherwise, it is really just a waste of everyone's time.

As a person who plays a necro, I would love to have a class that helps my pet out. Cigarettes is great DPS and helps with aux tanking or just pure DPS during the raid. On some fights, I cannot keep him up with just taps and mend, and clerics don't have the time or mana to heal him. Having a spell that protects pets is nice, but I think it should be boosted a bit more (could also give a small hot to the pet while the buff is on them, etc.)

 

[Eustace]

The role of the ranger is being expanded to make them competitive with classes that can do more dps better.

I can't look at everyone's buffbars but I'm stunned that beastlords, bards and paladins don't have better things to do with their buffslots.

Adding in either of those spells will not expand rangers in any way, shape, or form. The fact that you so positively believe this is the case simply shows how little you actually know about rangers.

I reiterate the above statement in response to your idea of what buffs are actually valuable and what buffs aren't. You simply have no idea what you're talking about, and are trying to legitimize your position spawned of fantasy and ignorance with your current position in the game. I'm sure you know a great deal about being a wizard and what buffs work for you, but don't presume to know a ranger like Eustace knows rangers.

 

[Notpit]

Bah you are both wrong!

COTP is exactly what melee DPS need. That is the kind of spell that makes us more useful to the raid.

But dangit Eustace! Stop complaining about the pet buff. That will make Rangers more valuable to a raid. Yes, it may not increase your dps, but it helps the raid. Just like my COTB is not to help ME in the raid. But it is a big help to the caster DPS players. Trying to keep pets alive during AE can be very difficult and takes time from the pet classes while they frantically try to heal their pets instead of DPSing.

Even Cujo needs some love from time to time.

Lore wise, sheesh, do any spells make sense? I dunno and don't really care since no one is roleplaying on the server.