Tradeskill Armor

[moghedancarns]

Maybe you should think outside the box a little. Because for an int caster losing a few mana points here but gaining some hps and agi or sta in return might let them avoid low hp aggro that causes them to die with half of their overly augged mana bar still full.

 

[Tempus]

I love how you assume that every plate class only cares about ac, and that a casters only concern is mana. Maybe you should think outside the box a little. Because for an int caster losing a few mana points here but gaining some hps and agi or sta in return might let them avoid low hp aggro that causes them to die with half of their overly augged mana bar still full. Or maybe, that paladin wants a little more CHA so that his spells are resisted less thusly allowing him to maintain aggro better, or that bard so that his mez's are resisted less. So what one class may consider a nerf on an item may actually be a *gasp* upgrade for another class. Basically you are jumping to conclusions and crying wolf without really stopping to considering what I am trying to accomplish here.

Maybe you could quote the whole thing next time, and not work so hard on being an ass. The SS armor is overpowered with RAW mana considering you can pile another 60mana on to each item with augs. What you quoted was one example on one item I was looking at, and I am pretty sure I never said that every item will be reduced in mana and given ONLY HPS AGI OR STA. That was one example. Some may get more cha, others may get more int. Also, you claiming that any stat but int cha and mana is useless to casters is pretty much a silly, silly assertion.

 

[Spiritplx]

Even if agi and sta are not as good as int/wis/cha, it does not mean these stats are useless for casters. I am sure the Devs will do a fine job at picking which stats will go with which armor, and make the armor still appealing for all casters to use. It really isn't something to be too concerned about.

 

[smadcatc]

Is it reallly safe to assume all tradeskilled armor has 2 x eq augs? I mean if they are balanced around that, then everything augged with HQ and lower would become too underpower?

 

[Syalara]

For SS, Deepmetal, and Imphide, yeah thats a safe assumption.

 

[robopirateninja]

Is it reallly safe to assume all tradeskilled armor has 2 x Game augs? I mean if they are balanced around that, then everything augged with HQ and lower would become too underpower?

its safe to assume that they can be, and should be balanced for that

 

[Tempus]

its safe to assume that they can be, and should be balanced for that

Well said.

 

[moghedancarns]

I merely quoted the relavent portion of the post. I did not alter the arrangement, other than removing unrelated portions, and did not, by the process of removal, alter your meaning or implications.

As such, I was not trying to be an ass, I was demonstrating a difference. An assumption, as I understand it, is generally an unfounded speculation based on rumor or heresay... a jump of thought without a logical link. I, instead, have theories extrapulated from your own wording. I felt that there was a difference. That was my only reason for posting the quote. I think you are wrong and you think I am worng, and I doubt any wordplay will change that. If it were instead another random player and we were both trying to sway the opinion of yourself, I would continue... but the situation as it is... I conceeded defeat in this issue several days ago.

However!

I request to retain the right to mock and belittle those of the cheerleader attitudes whom have taken to taunting the defeated. Granted, I conceed that choosing to parody the words of a Dev in my mocking might have been a poor choice, but I am hoping that the fact that I was provoked will be considered a mitigating factor.





Additionally, and most importantly, I want to protest this Legacy era tactics of requesting a nerf of items of which a person or guild may no longer have a use, but with which others can progress to another tier. This may be only one such request, but as it is successful, I expect to see many more, and I have no doubt in my mind in exactly under what purpose this request was made.

 

[Spiritplx]

When I made this post, many of my guildmates were still using shadowsilk...so I am not entirely sure what you mean. The armor is unbalanced. I do not care what tier you are at. If you look at it and honestly think it is balanced, then you really have not seen the itemization in the game.

And yeah, I guess I am a cheerleader because I am agreeing with a Dev who agreed with me. Okay...

 

[Tempus]

Additionally, and most importantly, I want to protest this Legacy era tactics of requesting a nerf of items of which a person or guild may no longer have a use, but with which others can progress to another tier. This may be only one such request, but as it is successful, I expect to see many more, and I have no doubt in my mind in exactly under what purpose this request was made.

This was already being looked at by staff before this thread even started. I have already stated this at least one time prior to this in this thread.

Also, I thought that maybe I could come into this thread and prevent people from thinking that "OMG NERF" was going to happen, because frankly it isn't. While the raw mana of some items will be reduced the over all power of each set is not taking a massive blow. You and a few others have chosen to try and blow this way out of proportion and cry "OMG NERF! OMG NERF!" over and over again without really trying to look at the topic objectively. Our goal is not to make you have a bad day, and to nerf pre-raid or non-raid casters to hell and back, but rather to bring the ALL OF THE HIGH END TS ARMOR into their proper place among the strength of the raiding tiers. In doing so it is paramount to keep in mind that you can double augment them, and add 60 raw mana, 30 raw hps or 10AC to any item if that is your choice.

Lots of the pre-raid people who will be wearing this armor will not be stat capped so taking from the raw mana and hps and pushing it into stats will be even less of a blow to them. I am not going to lie to you and say that some items will not be less powerful than they are now, but they will all still be viable alternatives to low end raid armor after we are done tweaking them.

 

[stramatus2]

As long as there is still a discussion on this I may as well add my .02. As one of only two deepmetal crafters who actively sell product in game, I have had more than a few customers pose concerns to me about all the plat they are putting into clothing themselves in DM armor while the ominous threat of an unknown change in power looms. I can also empathize with up-and-coming DM smiths (and for that matter, SS and Imp Hide tailors) who have toiled long and hard at mining and smithing (sacrificing in-game time they could have used to level) at the prospect of finally reaching DM level, only now to learn that the "pizzaz" of the armor (and with it, no doubt, the demand) will be lessened. The sexiness of DM armor, like it or not, is in its HP/AC/Mana, not in its resists and stats. Reduce those, and whether the armor is suddenly more balanced or not won't amount to a hill of beans (rightly or wrongly) for the melee class looking for a leg-up in HP, AC and Mana.

Further, from a smithing perspective, it takes long hours of farming, mining and combining--not to mention leveling in brewing and pottery--just to make one piece of DM armor, even at 250 smithing. I have to say that it was the currrent state of DM--and the current state only--that prodded me along to 250; and that includes the two times I simply dropped out of the game for several months at a time along the way due to the tediousness of mind-numbing combines and losing far more plat than I actually made till I reached 250. (Cue the violins)

One commenter made a fair point about the runes. I realize that slots will not be removed. However, runes are carefully chosen by each player in an attempt to "balance" his own stats. Some prefer more HP/AC/ and Mana (in fact, the majority), but others choose STA, STR, WIS, CHA, or something else to augment it. Once the change takes place, it will certainly disrupt the balance already achieved by each player, who (if he is to compensate) must now remove both runes on every piece he feels he needs to rebalance (can't remove just one aug). So the 6k aug problem persists.

Here is my suggestion for a solution. Leave the current DM armor as it is (players have worked hard to attain it), and simply remove DM ore from the game. The extintion of the ore will run its course and the crafting of DM will become lore. Replace the ore with something else; for example:

Dorro's Notes: "During my explorations of Dalaya, I came to hear of a strange type of Ore encountered in the Towers of Agony, also known as the Plane of Torment. At first, no viens of the stuff were found, but some of the local guardians seemed to hold on to the stuff, and I managed to acquire some, and subsquently make ingots out of it with the help of Coal and Stabilizer. The ingots were strangely unwilling to be formed into the shapes I desired, and in fact, initially seemed to know what they wanted to be themselves! Whereas at first the only objects I managed to make out of this Twisted Ore was a Shortsword and a Warhammer, further manipulation of it using a molten core seemed to tame it, and it became malable in my forge. What's even stranger is that veins of the ore suddenly and inexplicably developed in First Ruins just as the last of the deepmetal ore expired."

The devs will do as they like, and we will all adjust accordingly. But since the thread asks for suggestions, here is mine (fwiw).

Neiv Metalcrafter
65 Warrior / Foreseen
250 smithing

 

[Tempus]

As long as there is still a discussion on this I may as well add my .02. As one of only two deepmetal crafters who actively sell product in game, I have had more than a few customers pose concerns to me about all the plat they are putting into clothing themselves in DM armor while the ominous threat of an unknown change in power looms. I can also empathize with up-and-coming DM smiths (and for that matter, SS and Imp Hide tailors) who have toiled long and hard at mining and smithing (sacrificing in-game time they could have used to level) at the prospect of finally reaching DM level, only now to learn that the "pizzaz" of the armor (and with it, no doubt, the demand) will be lessened. The sexiness of DM armor, like it or not, is in its HP/AC/Mana, not in its resists and stats. Reduce those, and whether the armor is suddenly more balanced or not won't amount to a hill of beans (rightly or wrongly) for the melee class looking for a leg-up in HP, AC and Mana.

Further, from a smithing perspective, it takes long hours of farming, mining and combining--not to mention leveling in brewing and pottery--just to make one piece of DM armor, even at 250 smithing. I have to say that it was the currrent state of DM--and the current state only--that prodded me along to 250; and that includes the two times I simply dropped out of the game for several months at a time along the way due to the tediousness of mind-numbing combines and losing far more plat than I actually made till I reached 250. (Cue the violins)

One commenter made a fair point about the runes. I realize that slots will not be removed. However, runes are carefully chosen by each player in an attempt to "balance" his own stats. Some prefer more HP/AC/ and Mana (in fact, the majority), but others choose STA, STR, WIS, CHA, or something else to augment it. Once the change takes place, it will certainly disrupt the balance already achieved by each player, who (if he is to compensate) must now remove both runes on every piece he feels he needs to rebalance (can't remove just one aug). So the 6k aug problem persists.

Here is my suggestion for a solution. Leave the current DM armor as it is (players have worked hard to attain it), and simply remove DM ore from the game. The extintion of the ore will run its course and the crafting of DM will become lore. Replace the ore with something else; for example:

Dorro's Notes: "During my explorations of Dalaya, I came to hear of a strange type of Ore encountered in the Towers of Agony, also known as the Plane of Torment. At first, no viens of the stuff were found, but some of the local guardians seemed to hold on to the stuff, and I managed to acquire some, and subsquently make ingots out of it with the help of Coal and Stabilizer. The ingots were strangely unwilling to be formed into the shapes I desired, and in fact, initially seemed to know what they wanted to be themselves! Whereas at first the only objects I managed to make out of this Twisted Ore was a Shortsword and a Warhammer, further manipulation of it using a molten core seemed to tame it, and it became malable in my forge. What's even stranger is that veins of the ore suddenly and inexplicably developed in First Ruins just as the last of the deepmetal ore expired."

The devs will do as they like, and we will all adjust accordingly. But since the thread asks for suggestions, here is mine (fwiw).

Neiv Metalcrafter
65 Warrior / Foreseen
250 smithing

This was already being looked at by staff before this thread even started. I have already stated this at least one time prior to this in this thread.

Also, I thought that maybe I could come into this thread and prevent people from thinking that "OMG NERF" was going to happen, because frankly it isn't. While the raw mana of some items will be reduced the over all power of each set is not taking a massive blow. You and a few others have chosen to try and blow this way out of proportion and cry "OMG NERF! OMG NERF!" over and over again without really trying to look at the topic objectively. Our goal is not to make you have a bad day, and to nerf pre-raid or non-raid casters to hell and back, but rather to bring the ALL OF THE HIGH END TS ARMOR into their proper place among the strength of the raiding tiers. In doing so it is paramount to keep in mind that you can double augment them, and add 60 raw mana, 30 raw hps or 10AC to any item if that is your choice.

Lots of the pre-raid people who will be wearing this armor will not be stat capped so taking from the raw mana and hps and pushing it into stats will be even less of a blow to them. I am not going to lie to you and say that some items will not be less powerful than they are now, but they will all still be viable alternatives to low end raid armor after we are done tweaking them.

Please, please read what I say carefully before you draw incorrect conclusions. Look these are not OMG MASSIVE changes. I doubt very seriously anyone will need to completely re-augment eery single piece of armor they have. You are just taking the "what if" worst case scenario you can think of, and throwing it out there. Hell one of the best things we are looking at with this is to give the DM chain its own stats and not just make it a mirror image of the plate with less ac.

Also of note is that I am a 220ish blacksmith, and have consulted with a few 250 smiths and tailors about what we are looking at doing. So I am not ignoring nor oblivious to the effort, money and time invested in skilling up a tradeskill.

 

[stramatus2]

Please, please read what I say carefully before you draw incorrect conclusions. Look these are not OMG MASSIVE changes.

Kelyin, I'm beginning to think you must have a hotkey with that statement. Not everyone you click the hotkey on has failed to read what you've said, and I think you've been called on that before. You're coming across as unneccesarily defensive. Please read carefully what I said. I did not say these would be "OMG MASSIVE changes." I simply stated the fact that those who already have the armor, and who bought it for the HP/AC/Mana, are NOT going to be excited about buying more if these things are reduced by whatever amount. You're looking at this from a purely technical perspective, and I think shortsightedly so. There is an economic factor to this. I am a businessman in game and a business owner in RL. I understand what motivates people to buy a product. It's my job to know these things. I also understand what becomes a disincentive for them when you take away something they've come to expect. You apparently either don't understand that, don't fully appreciate the ramifications of it, or don't care about it. That's fine; it's your call to make. I chimed in to give at least that perspective on it because it is something I understand. Calm down. :tinfoil:

I doubt very seriously anyone will need to completely re-augment eery single piece of armor they have. You are just taking the "what if" worst case scenario you can think of, and throwing it out there.

But I didn't say "every single piece"; I said "every piece he feels he needs to rebalance" (again, following your own good advice would help here). That may be every piece (depending on the player; I've personally changed ALL mine out at least twice for balancing purposes); we just don't know yet, because the exact upcoming changes are still unknown. It will no doubt be different from player to player. But let's just say only half the pieces need to be re-auged. That represents an additional 3k+ in (re)augs. That's not an insignificant economic ramification for a player.

Hell one of the best things we are looking at with this is to give the DM chain its own stats and not just make it a mirror image of the plate with less ac.

(applause) This is a much needed change. I'm not against a change. But I like my solution better since it better meets perceived needs and psychological expectations.

Also of note is that I am a 220ish blacksmith, and have consulted with a few 250 smiths and tailors about what we are looking at doing.

I wasn't consulted. I officially feel slighted :hmph:

So I am not ignoring nor oblivious to the effort, money and time invested in skilling up a tradeskill

Glad to hear it. :dance:

Neiv Metalcrafter
65 Warrior / Unforeseen
250 Smith and Deepmetal Crafter extraordinaire

 

[stramatus2]

Also of note is that I am a 220ish blacksmith, and have consulted with a few 250 smiths and tailors about what we are looking at doing

Just for the record, there's a big difference between consulting with a 250 smith, and consulting with a 250 smith who actively makes and sells deepmetal armor to the Dalaya public. Perkins is retired; Grizabella is retired; Nasta is acive, but co-owns a 250 smith (Sorun) with Gladis (which effectively means neither one experienced the gruelling hell of taking a smith to 250 on his own); there are a couple of smiths who make DM for their guildies but not for the public. Outside of that, there's me. I don't know what 250 smiths you consulted with, but I doubt many of them would have the selling experience required to address the economic concerns I just raised.

Neiv Metalcrafter
65 Warrior / Unforeseen
250 Smith and Deepmetal Crafter

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

When I made this post, many of my guildmates were still using shadowsilk...so I am not entirely sure what you mean. The armor is unbalanced. I do not care what tier you are at. If you look at it and honestly think it is balanced, then you really have not seen the itemization in the game.

So has it become more unbalanced since it was originally introduced? If not, why didn't you make this post earlier, when you were wearing almost a full set of the unbalanced deepmetal? Whether it is unbalanced or not, your timing is not very altruistic.

Just for the record, there's a big difference between consulting with a 250 smith, and consulting with a 250 smith who actively makes and sells deepmetal armor to the Dalaya public. Perkins is retired; Grizabella is retired; Nasta is acive, but co-owns a 250 smith (Sorun) with Gladis (which effectively means neither one experienced the gruelling hell of taking a smith to 250 on his own); there are a couple of smiths who make DM for their guildies but not for the public. Outside of that, there's me. I don't know what 250 smiths you consulted with, but I doubt many of them would have the selling experience required to address the economic concerns I just raised.

Pretty sure Tempus has consulted with at LEAST both Gladis and Nasta, and the fact that they skilled up together (and that Gladis is no longer as active in the market) in no way detract from them having the selling experience required to address your economic concerns.

 

[Spiritplx]

So has it become more unbalanced since it was originally introduced? If not, why didn't you make this post earlier, when you were wearing almost a full set of the unbalanced deepmetal? Whether it is unbalanced or not, your timing is not very altruistic.

I never had more than 1 or 2 pieces of deepmetal, actually. I had discussed this issue with several people and just had not gotten around to posting it. HOWEVER, with all of the recent higher end item nerfs coming along (which was AFTER i was done wearing deepmetal) then the TS armor needs to also be brought back in line. Otherwise you use it too long, and skip over various raid items. If the vast majority of raid items get nerfed, I don't see how a re-balancing of dropable armor would be an issue.

Also, I am pretty new to this server (been here for about 6 months) and I have thought it has been unbalanced ever since I started. But, you did catch me. My main goal to this game is to make it harder for people to advance so I can be the only one who raids high end zones. After I get all of the lower tiered items nerfed I can finally quit this game.

 

[stramatus2]

Pretty sure Tempus has consulted with at LEAST both Gladis and Nasta, and the fact that they skilled up together (and that Gladis is no longer as active in the market) in no way detract from them having the selling experience required to address your economic concerns.

Perhaps; but it sounds like you're simply assuming that (1) he spoke with them, and (2) he spoke with them about the economic concerns I raised. I see no reflection of knowledge of those concerns in any of the prior discussion on this. And I did not raise the issue of skilling a smith only halfway vs. skilling a smith all the way to 250 as primarily a support for the economic concern, but rather as a point of perspective: Will the difficulty level required to skill up a smith to 250 be worth the effort to the up-and-coming smith whose sole motivation for doing endless and mindless combines is the prize of being able to craft an armor as attractive as deepmetal? Someone who has skilled a toon up only halfway to 250 really can't have the same perspective.

with all of the recent higher end item nerfs coming along (which was AFTER i was done wearing deepmetal) then the TS armor needs to also be brought back in line. Otherwise you use it too long, and skip over various raid items.

So what? Why can't a player have the option of chosing between looting a raid item, or working his tail off to buy a slightly better item that is craftable? I really don't get the injustice part about it. Tradeskilling is a lot of hard work, and the end craftable product should be worth the effort. Farming plat is a lot of hard work and the end buyable product should be worth the effort. Not every chooses to raid--or even can choose to raid because of RL demands--and so your perspective is flawed, because it focuses on raiding and completely ignores non-raiding players and guilds. Someone who chooses to raid should start out with lower gear than the highest craftable gear since the end result of raiding, once he advances through the tier progressions, is an armor that ends up being 5x better than any craftable armor available on the server.

If you really want to talk about balance, here's an idea: Allow us crafters to make armor that is comparable to higher raid-tier armor--and make it correspondingly expensive to make and buy--so that we can accomodate family guilds and other non-raiding guilds who would then have a rare item to shoot for. But to compare tier-1 raid gear to deepmetal is, in my opinion, faulty from the start. The target audience is different; and the tier-1 raiders will surpass deepmetal soon enough without having to fuss about whether dm is overpowered. Will some raiders buy it anyway and consign raid items to "gratz rot"? Of course; but that already happens anyway because all raiding guilds I know of at that level contain a mixture of seasoned veterans (who already have higher-tiered raid gear) and those who are just starting out and don't have the plat to buy craftable armor anyway. It's usually the non-raiding players that come to me, not the raiding players.

 

[Spiritplx]

I do not think that having the Planes and other higher end zones dropping tradeskill items is a bad idea, however, that is for a totally different thread.

If you think that ALL items (raid/tradeskill/higher end dropable) should not be taken into account for balancing items, then you are completely wrong. Just because you do not raid does not mean you are entitled to extremely powerful gear, that actually does not make any sense at all. Sure tradeskills are hard work, but so is everything else in this game. Farming platinum, exping, tradeskills, raiding, and any other form of advancing your character is hard work, tradeskills are not the exception.

So again, my point is that all items should be taken into consideration when re-balancing other items. It should not be compared to just other tradeskill items or dropable gear. Just because you may not raid doesn't mean a lot of people who do raid and use this armor don't miss out on other items because of it. When it trivializes items that are "harder" to get (harder is subjective, but I would say getting 18 people together to kill a raid target is harder than individual farming) it just does not make any sense.

 

[moghedancarns]

So this thread, all of the ideas in it, was 100% your idea. It's not coming from any other source.

Items that you do not wear, never wore very much of, do not affect you at all... they SUDDENLY bothered you enough to spend... what... an hour typing out the OP?

It has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with the all the posts of raid competition that have cropped up in the last few weeks. Totally a coincidence? How about the "Right to Farm for Charms" newbie exploitation front? Totally never popped into your mind?





And before you reach for the "the staff was already talking/thinking/considering about this problem" hotkey ((nice one, Niev)), LOTS of things have that status, and hold that status for years. How long have the wyvernfang armor quests held that status? They aren't the oldest by a logn shot, just the first thing that popped into my mind. Why is THIS issue getting the fast track?

 

[robopirateninja]

:tinfoil:

Felyn is in Steel, nobody in shadowsilk is taking mobs from him.

The items are too powerful, when it's a toss up whether to use TS armor or a tier 5+ raid drop, something is amiss, so sorry.