Tradeskill Armor

[Spiritplx]

So this thread, all of the ideas in it, was 100% your idea. It's not coming from any other source.

No, I had spoken with many members from the community and even to some staff in passing about how TS items needed to be looked at.

Items that you do not wear, never wore very much of, do not affect you at all... they SUDDENLY bothered you enough to spend... what... an hour typing out the OP?

They didn't suddenly bother me, but I suddenly made a post about it. How else did you want me to not suddenly bring it up? Like I said, I am still sort of new here, and saw the flaw a few months into my gaming experience. I like to do research before randomly making suggestions, sorry.

It has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with the all the posts of raid competition that have cropped up in the last few weeks. Totally a coincidence? How about the "Right to Farm for Charms" newbie exploitation front? Totally never popped into your mind?

No, the only thing I actually cared about was how it would affect my friends who do tradeskills, but sometimes I like to do what is best for game balancing and not what makes everyone have badass Fomelos.

Tyrone is right. My current guild does not suffer from lack of targets due to tradeskill armor and we mostly get money from tradeskills which we use for our charms, so I am a little confused what the "Right to Farm for Charms" even means.

As a matter of fact, I suggested that an aug slot be taken away and I SELL AUGS MYSELF.

But again, I am JUST out to get everyone and I will not say that the staff was thinking about it before me, because I really don't care if people whine and moan that I "nerfed" tradeskills. If that is the way you think, then I really don't care about your opinion anyways.

This is just another case of a big bad high end player trying to shit on all the "noobs".

 

[stramatus2]

If you think that ALL items (raid/tradeskill/higher end dropable) should not be taken into account for balancing items, then you are completely wrong.

Let's do take all items into consideration, but let's not think so mono-dimensionally. The "balance" (if it can be called that) is already built into the system by virtue of means and opportunity. Someone in a raiding guild has both the means and the opportunity to exceed tradeskill armor many times over in short order. Someone who doesn't raid acheives no higher than the power TS armor provides. Further, most raiding guilds are closed to, say, tanking classes if there is already a guild tank (no opportunity or means of attaining anything greater than buyable armor). How about "balancing" that instead of obsessing over the "overpowered" nature of DM?

Just because you do not raid does not mean you are entitled to extremely powerful gear

Entitled? Who said anything about entitlement? It requires hard work over a long period of time for a non-raiding player to make enough plat to buy a suit of DM armor--plat most players just don't have. And please don't make the mistake of calling DM armor "extremely powerful." I am wearing a full suit of it, and I can barely withstand the lowest-tiered mobs as it is. You act as though TS armor is a starting point, and that's why you contunue to compare it to tier-1 raid drops. Maybe for you it is the starting point. But for those who don't raid, DM is the ending point.

Sure tradeskills are hard work, but so is everything else in this game. Farming platinum, exping, tradeskills, raiding, and any other form of advancing your character is hard work, tradeskills are not the exception.

Yes, except in your "exception," it's ok for raiding gear to already be 5x more powerful than the "extremely powerful" DM, and you still want DM lowered in power. I don't think you are thinking soundly on this.

When it trivializes items that are "harder" to get (harder is subjective, but I would say getting 18 people together to kill a raid target is harder than individual farming) it just does not make any sense.

In what sense does keeping TS armor 5x less powerful than the top-tiered raiding armor "trivialize" raiding armor? On the contrary, you trivialize the effort it takes both to make and to earn DM armor if you cannot be in a rading guild. Getting 18 people together to kill a target is a task, I realize that. But so is multiple days of farming plat to buy a single piece of armor.

 

[Spiritplx]

Actually, if you read all of my posts I never say DM is the only overpowered thing. I actually think SS is the worst offender. Not sure where you get "5x more powerful", but ok. And again...NO ONE has said the items will be below the first few tiers power level wise, you guys just cannot get off that.

TS items are NOT the ending point. HHK, Rust, and FR all provide items that are much better than TS items but also harder to obtain.

Also, please tell me which raid zones have the 400+ mana items because 5x more powerful is a pretty terrible statement.

 

[lynnettell]

HHK, Rust, and FR all provide items that are much better than TS items but also harder to obtain.

Yet you're saying that TS items are overpowered? And...

The items are too powerful, when it's a toss up whether to use TS armor or a tier 5+ raid drop, something is amiss, so sorry.

HHK, Rust, FR are Tier 5 now? :what:

I can understand if devs think some "tweaking" is in order for some of the stats, and will wait to see what the changes are before screaming NERF! But the arguments you make about why TS armor is overpowered are contradictory.

I'm almost to the point of starting DM armor, and now have acquired a 250 tailor & brewer. I have spent countless hours mining, combining, everything. To the point I'm still wearing a Frogskin Tunic instead of SS, because I throw all my money back into skilling smithing. I know level 65's that aren't raiders who can't afford a DM BP, much less an entire suit. 26k+ for 13 pieces of armor, then another 5k+ for the +5 augs on DM isn't the kind of money most folks have when they start doing even such things as moderate maps, tier 1 raids, etc. The cost of TS armor alone (and SS is equally expensive) makes it so the average player will not be fully geared in TS armor when hitting 65.

But for those who don't raid, DM is the ending point.

This was my original point. It's a starting point for raiders, an ending point for non raiders. It gives them the chance to at least be good in groups, not OMFG uber.

Again, I'm not saying that the "tweaks" are a nerf, I reserve that judgment until I see the changes. But the arguments saying it's way, way overpowered are very weak.

 

[Spiritplx]

You quoted two different people so I won't bother with defending a statement I did not make.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

The items are too powerful, when it's a toss up whether to use TS armor or a tier 5+ raid drop, something is amiss, so sorry.

Maybe you're again referring to SS (which I don't have a good feel for), but Rev is in tier 3-4 and I have replaced ALL of the deepmetal on my warrior, and all but 2 pieces (boots and a bracer) on my cleric. Deepmetal can be considered to be around Tier 3 at best (most was replaced from tier 3 drops).

 

[Tempus]

This was already being looked at by staff before this thread even started. I have already stated this at least one time prior to this in this thread.

Also, I thought that maybe I could come into this thread and prevent people from thinking that "OMG NERF" was going to happen, because frankly it isn't. While the raw mana of some items will be reduced the over all power of each set is not taking a massive blow. You and a few others have chosen to try and blow this way out of proportion and cry "OMG NERF! OMG NERF!" over and over again without really trying to look at the topic objectively. Our goal is not to make you have a bad day, and to nerf pre-raid or non-raid casters to hell and back, but rather to bring the ALL OF THE HIGH END TS ARMOR into their proper place among the strength of the raiding tiers. In doing so it is paramount to keep in mind that you can double augment them, and add 60 raw mana, 30 raw hps or 10AC to any item if that is your choice.

Lots of the pre-raid people who will be wearing this armor will not be stat capped so taking from the raw mana and hps and pushing it into stats will be even less of a blow to them. I am not going to lie to you and say that some items will not be less powerful than they are now, but they will all [size=30pt]still be viable alternatives to low end raid armor after we are done tweaking them.[/size]

This will be my last post in this thread. I have listened to all of your input and positions (even if I did not always agree), but the fact that you don't want TS armor to be less powerful than it is right now is not a compelling reason to leave it "as is". The point is that these items will still be some of the best dropabble items around, even though there will be much more rare items from high-end dungeons that will be even further upgrades without raiding. The fact still remains that this will be the best "full-suit" of armor(s) that is completely available to anyone and everyone.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Again, I'm not saying that the "tweaks" are a nerf, I reserve that judgment until I see the changes. But the arguments saying it's way, way overpowered are very weak.

You're free to judge all you like, but typing it doesn't make it so. DM and SS currently are indeed too powerful. The items from the dungeons listed do not cover every slot, and in some cases even require a t4 group. What's more, several of them are only swollen with hp/mana to compete with ridiculous TS items in the first place.

Your tradeskill will still be profitable. It will still make items that are good enough for raid-level players to wear, and it will still provide a viable supplement/alternate to raiding. It just won't be a clear and obvious replacement of low-tier raiding, because as it stands there's no reason on earth why a low tier guild should bother raiding anything below tier 4. Currently, they'd be much better served by whoring plat until they can buy full racks of DM/SS, and that situation is a bad one which we're trying to correct.

 

[stramatus2]

Also, please tell me which raid zones have the 400+ mana items because 5x more powerful is a pretty terrible statement

5x better does not have to translate into raw mana. The upper-tier raid gear is probably more like 2-3x better than TS gear in terms of raw mana, hp, ac. But the raid gear typically includes some kind of effect (or 2, or 3), which is completely absent from TS gear, which can easily make up the difference to 5x better.

 

[Spiritplx]

A lot of the items you speak of are in the last few zones of the game. Many people don't even see these zones let alone get all the loot from there. These items are so many tiers above TS armor they should be 2x better. You are comparing THE HIGHEST raid gear with TS armor which is at least 4 tiers below the armor you are talking about. I am saying that tradeskill armor affects Tiers 1-3 where most of the items will be rot, or at least not highly sought after due to TS armor being better. Like I said, I am not posting this because I am somehow losing mobs to SS geared casters.

 

[stramatus2]

I am saying that tradeskill armor affects Tiers 1-3 where most of the items will be rot, or at least not highly sought after due to TS armor being better.

In other words, you're arguing that DM armor is currently powerful enough to equip someone to withstand tier 4/5 raid mobs. Tell you what; invite me to tank on your next tier 5 raid. I'll wear all my dm armor, you log your guild cleric, and lest's see how well do keeping me alive LOL.

 

[Spiritplx]

Heh, my clerics could keep you alive. However, I never said that full TS armor would make it so you can skip right to Tier 5. Please quote me on that and I will explain that I was drunk when I said that.

 

[ryutakin]

If anything i'd say at most TS armor puts you in a pretty good place for the most part. Depending on your race you could be pretty awesome IE Belk was full TS armor for the most part and was rockin 5.5k hp at his prime.(Although i've seen some TS warriors rocking only 4.4k or so) I'd say that's a pretty ideal goal for tanking dhk/misery but for upper torment/air your going to need more mana from healers/more from tank. A TS tank/healer is around tiers 2-3 at most and I think thats a good shot considering that is only when your fully decked and it takes quite a bit to get there




Just my 2 cp imp hide is the weakest of all the armors. Mainly because it only really benefits mnk/bst currently(maybe bard) And a fully decked imp hide mnk/bst isn't getting too far AC/HP is pretty right where it needs to be imo

 

[stramatus2]

Heh, my clerics could keep you alive.

Only with great difficulty. If you'd like to be convinced for yourself, invite me to tank your raid.

However, I never said that full TS armor would make it so you can skip right to Tier 5. Please quote me on that and I will explain that I was drunk when I said that.

Gladly . . .

I am saying that tradeskill armor affects Tiers 1-3 where most of the items will be rot, or at least not highly sought after due to TS armor being better. Like I said, I am not posting this because I am somehow losing mobs to SS geared casters.

If DM armor is better than armor that drops from tier-3 raid mobs (so that they become rot), that makes it equal to tier-4 armor; tier 4 armor is what equips someone to raid tier 5 mobs. So, according to that logic, DM armor is good enough to wear to tank a tier-5 mob.

Btw, I assume by all your passion about the "balance" issue that ALL new members and alts of Steel are forced to start with tier-1 raid mobs. After all, it just wouldn't be right to allow them to bypass the first few tiers and tag along into higher raid zones with the big boys to, say, loot some higher-end gear, right? . . . Yeah.

 

[Spiritplx]

Only with great difficulty. If you'd like to be convinced for yourself, invite me to tank your raid.Gladly . . . If DM armor is better than armor that drops from tier-3 raid mobs (so that they become rot), that makes it equal to tier-4 armor; tier 4 armor is what equips someone to raid tier 5 mobs. So, according to that logic, DM armor is good enough to wear to tank a tier-5 mob.

Btw, I assume by all your passion about the "balance" issue that ALL new members and alts of Steel are forced to start with tier-1 raid mobs. After all, it just wouldn't be right to allow them to bypass the first few tiers and tag along into higher raid zones with the big boys to, say, loot some higher-end gear, right? . . . Yeah.

First of all, we don't even raid Tier 5 stuff anymore. I said TS won't be replaced by SOME items from Tier 1-3, and by NO means does that mean you can just skip to Tier 5. Your logic is terrible.

What does having really good gear and doing BACK CONTENT to gear alts have anything to do with item balancing? You honestly have no idea what you are even talking about.

 

[stramatus2]

First of all, we don't even raid Tier 5 stuff anymore.

So maybe you're not in a good position to judge the "power" of DM in a live situation then, especially since you consistently ignore the lack of effects on TS armor vs. raid drops which do have those effects.

I said TS won't be replaced by SOME items from Tier 1-3,

Nice backpedaling. No, you said MOST items; like me to quote you? Here it is . . .

I am saying that tradeskill armor affects Tiers 1-3 where most of the items will be rot, or at least not highly sought after due to TS armor being better.

So, in your estimation DM armor is "better" (your word) than "MOST" (your word) tier 1-3 armor. That makes it compatible with tier 4 armor in which one is equipped to procceed to tier 5 mobs (unless you are proposing that it is somehow possible to have tier-5 armor before you actually kill a tier-5 mob).

and by NO means does that mean you can just skip to Tier 5. Your logic is terrible.

This is not MY logic; it is yours, all pieced together in a nice neat package. Maybe if you'd argue consistently the logic would be more sound.

What does having really good gear and doing BACK CONTENT to gear alts have anything to do with item balancing? You honestly have no idea what you are even talking about

And the insults begin. Your response reminds me of the preacher who writes a note in margin of his sermon: "Point weak here; Pound the Pulpit!" Or, if you prefer Shakespear, "Methinks thou dost protest too much." But your answer is revealing. We now see that the "righteous indignation" you displayed over the "overpowered" toons who were so injustly allowed to have decent armor without having to raid tiers 1-3 mobs was never meant to apply to the elite--THEY and they alone should have the privilege of being able to say "gratz rot" to lower-tiered armor, right? So it's okay, by your lights, to completely bypass tier 1-3 and to start with "extremely overpowered" gear as an alt or a new member of your guild; but other players who never intend to raid, but who work hard at farming plat, should not have comparable crafted armor? I'm sorry, I guess I mistook your original stance as one of principle; to wit, "When [TS armor] trivializes items that are "harder" to get (harder is subjective, but I would say getting 18 people together to kill a raid target is harder than individual farming) it just does not make any sense." Now I see you are not operating from principle at all, but from elitist opportunism: "Alts and new members reserve the right to trivialize the 'hard work' of raiding tiers 1-3."

If you can't see the double standard in what you are saying here, . . . <shrug>

 

[robopirateninja]

Um, syduck:

The reason the so called "elite" guilds can do things like farm low-tier raid mobs for alts is because they already put in the effort to beat and surpass the content. New members into high-tier raiding guilds might get something of a "free pass," but if their gear is too subpar they won't be of any use to a raid. When new members join high-end guilds they usually need to spend AT LEAST a week or a month, with an 18-man raidforce killing older content to gear the new member up to their level.

It seems like you're really trying to argue in your post, that players who don't join raiding guilds or raid should have access to raid-level gear.

It is a design decision. If the rewards for clicking your mouse mindlessly in a tunnel for several hours were intended to be comparable with the rewards for coordinating a raid and figuring out and executing the strats to raid mobs, they would be. Unfortunately for players who don't want to/enjoy raiding but want super-awesome gear, they aren't.

 

[stramatus2]

The reason the so called "elite" guilds can do things like farm low-tier raid mobs for alts is because they already put in the effort to beat and surpass the content. New members into high-tier raiding guilds might get something of a "free pass," but if their gear is too subpar they won't be of any use to a raid.

Uhm . . .

I have no doubt you can think of "good reasons" (from a radier's perspective, of course) why your level of armor for a new member is justified. But, sorry, it's still no argument to lower the power of TS armor, which is a different category of armor altogether, which helps non-raiding players who work hard at farming plat, and which is the end of the line for these players, not the beginning as in the case of raiders.

It seems like you're really trying to argue in your post, that players who don't join raiding guilds or raid should have access to raid-level gear.

LOL; No, they should have access to TRADESKILL LEVEL gear--and that's EXACTLY what they get with Deepmetal. If that happens to overlap the first 3 levels of raid gear, so what! It's a different category of armor targeted to a different type of player. I just don't know why you cannot understand that.

If the rewards for clicking your mouse mindlessly in a tunnel for several hours were intended to be comparable with the rewards for coordinating a raid and figuring out and executing the strats to raid mobs, they would be.

What? Are you speaking of the non-raiding player who coordinates groups of people each day in order to to farm enough plat after a few weeks to afford one piece of armor? How is that "mindless clicking in a tunnel"? Or are you just confused on this point? And please, the strategy of raiding usually comes down to the strategy of one or two guild leaders/officiers, not that of all players in the guild or even in the raid. I've been in a raiding guild. The "non-thinking" members of the guild (and there are a lot of non-thinking high-end guild members--beleive me, I have been in groups with them) are simply mashing buttons and yet they still somehow deserve very nice armor.

Unfortunately for players who don't want to/enjoy raiding but want super-awesome gear, they aren't

Wow, how could anyone be this ignorant? It's not always a matter of not wanting to or not enjoying raiding. Some of us are casual players because we are married with kids, jobs and other commitments, and we don't have the luxury of doing nothing other than sitting in mom and dad's basement eating pizza with pimple-infested mouths and and playing computer games for hours at a time. At least in my case, I have very specific days or evenings that I can and cannot be online. Raiding guilds typically require a commitment to at least three nights a week, at a specific start time, with an open-ended end time. If someone with RL commitments cannot make those specific times, he's out. And, as I mentioned before, raiding guilds are not looking to recruit certain classes that require only one or two to complete a guild. A person who spends the same amount of time in game as other raiding players may still not be able to raid because the time he is online is outside the parameters of the times guilds typically raid. There are all kinds of reasons someone might not be able to raid even if they would like to raid.

 

[Allielyn]

Look, it's really very simple.

Because getting a full suit of shadow silk with double exceptional augs is a trivial matter that does not require time and effort equivalent to raiding.

A full set with full augs would run about 35k. 35k takes about a month to farm.

Getting a raid to ritualist in cod takes (at least for steel) 11 months (guild was started late december/early januaryy)

I can agree with that, and I will certainly evaluate the comparative power of high end tradeskills to raid gear, but I think you're also forgetting the effort invested in raising a tradeskill to that level, and that price is very likely to hike with demand going up.

It's already been established, In This Thread, that the price for a full set of tradeskill armor with double augs has actually gone down - and that's not even resales, that's from original creators. Based on the fact that a) they were left at that power with the assumption that demand (and therefore price) would go up, and b) Every Single Dev agrees the items are overpowered for the difficulty to obtain (and the resulting price), they are on the block to receive, in general, a nerf, and in some cases: surgical re-alignment.

Props to Tempus for being willing to undertake this assignment, knowing full well the kind of hate he'd receive!

 

[Spiritplx]

Looks like I will take the brunt of the hate, which is fine, because I really don't care anymore. If these tradeskillers don't see that the items are unbalanced, then they don't know what they are talking about. It is not like I worked my character up through most of the tiers to know what I am talking about. You are making terrible arguments with what I say and none of it makes sense. It is pointless to keep arguing with you. Good luck with the tradeskilling. Sorry you "wasted" all your time.