Tradeskill Armor
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lynnettell
Dalayan Elder
That my friend, is a load of crap. Unless you are a twink/alt, it is impossible, and trust me, I tried with blacksmithing. I'm now 65, and not even close to maxxed on smithing (and I will quote smithing items here). There are components that are purely vendor bought (think liquid gold, plat bars, etc.). As far as farming it yourself... okay, yeah, after 60 you can farm lavadust & essence of fire... Now. You also have to throw in the time spent mining, because if you're like me, you sell off higher ore as you progress, so you can keep skilling on lower ore.
Unless you spend 24/7 mining & smithing (and trust me, I've done it a LOT), never exp, go kill giants for hours while mining obsidian ore (when you finally get high enough between brewing, smithing & mining skill ups to actually kill them.. oh, wait, you need decent gear to do that... ) it will still be impossible to max without another char supplying you with funds. That's why I'm broke, and my SS pieces were luckily made at cost on first attempts. =P
I say again, I am a tradeskiller. These "tweaks" make me nervous. However, I attempt to see both sides. Rather than the two mob attitude, which is what is going on, how about the devs who are in charge of these changes do as has been done in the past such as when this post was started.
Xeldan posted the proposed changes, got feedback. Final decision was still up to the devs, obviously, but players were given a chance to discuss instead of just getting the feeling of being beat with the "nerf bat".
Harziel
Dalayan Beginner
Lets just skip the crap and vote what changes we'd prefer at least.
I vote the AC and Mana from DM plate redistributed among stamina as a main stat, and dex/agi as a secondary.
I have no clue with the balancing, but I just know i'd like to hit more, dodge more, and have relatively similar hp mods if I can't keep the AC mods.
Theres no real rhyme or reason but i figure people might as well start suggesting where they'd like to see some of the item's points redistributed to.
The change is gonna be made regardless. Instead of bitching about a car crash, lets get our hands on the wheel and eyes on the road mmk?
I vote the AC and Mana from DM plate redistributed among stamina as a main stat, and dex/agi as a secondary.
I have no clue with the balancing, but I just know i'd like to hit more, dodge more, and have relatively similar hp mods if I can't keep the AC mods.
Theres no real rhyme or reason but i figure people might as well start suggesting where they'd like to see some of the item's points redistributed to.
The change is gonna be made regardless. Instead of bitching about a car crash, lets get our hands on the wheel and eyes on the road mmk?
GuiardoTuneweaver
Staff Emeritus
Lilbrateeboie said:
What ever gave you the idea that this was a democracy?
syduck: A game like this would quickly spiral back to a live-type environment of grotesquely overpowered items and a thrashed economy if players were allowed to choose what was to be added. Look at how many posts there have been asking for the bazaar or bazaar-like search capabilities for sold items, and look at what the bazaar did to live's economy. Similarly consider PoK requests. While I certainly don't like, nor do I agree with a number of things that have been done/changed here, I firmly believe that a benevolent-dictatorship model works MUCH better in an environment like this, and I think that the fact that this server's been around so long, and that people are continually willing to voluntarily donate to keep it going attest to the fact that it seems to be working fine.And now back to your regularly scheduled rants.
Spiritplx
Dalayan Elder
I think vote was the wrong term, but surely the devs do listen to suggestions. Giving ideas is never a bad thing, and since the devs are humans and some players, they listen to the player base. Just because an idea is shot down doesn't mean another idea isn't looked in to.
Harziel
Dalayan Beginner
Aye vote was the wrong term, suggestion was what was meant.
Please start SUGGESTING what balances you'd prefer and the balance reasoning behind it.
Besides, suggesting how an item should be balanced is alot less radical of a change than a bazaar zone, PoK, and a listing system.
Also, the items are being balanced so whats the harm in at least trying to know which direction the balance is going?
Please start SUGGESTING what balances you'd prefer and the balance reasoning behind it.
Besides, suggesting how an item should be balanced is alot less radical of a change than a bazaar zone, PoK, and a listing system.
Also, the items are being balanced so whats the harm in at least trying to know which direction the balance is going?
Daelius
Dalayan Adventurer
for the most part, the ac on deepmetal should be dropped a couple points. those can be put into other stats such as stamina and agilicy. On shadowsilk, the raw mana could be reduced a tad and put into other spots like charisma. Still useful, but does reduce the power a little bit
lynnettell
Dalayan Elder
Yay! A positive note. I hate to admit it, but I won't say what happened to me (because it's a female thing) when I clicked that SS tunic and succeeded. 160 mana after I did the augs... WOW!
That's in part why I changed my stance from, "Leave tradeskills alone!" Because I was purely a smith, and as a druid, I cannot use the items I make, except the occasional augment. Completely overpowered, no. But rather than get the nerf bat out, and make the items too underbalanced... make the stats more for players that can use the +wis/int/cha, +sta/agi, etc., so it will in turn make the gear not so much of an upgrade, if you are level 65 and already have wis/int/cha maxxed, sta/agi maxxed, yet will help those up & coming who can still reap the benefits of the +6 mana per wis/int over 200, etc.
Stats *do* matter more here, I've noticed that. I know as a puller (also a druid there, gogo Harmony!) in BoT on Live that I was taunted to get ND3, and told that if I did not believe it, to save the points & go from none to max. It made one heck of a difference. Because my AGI was low, it actually did.
Anyway, I would really like it if a proposal was made like in my previous post. Throw out changes, give the players a chance to comment, and say, Okay, knock X mana off, but *we'd* rather see you throw that mana in X stat.
That's in part why I changed my stance from, "Leave tradeskills alone!" Because I was purely a smith, and as a druid, I cannot use the items I make, except the occasional augment. Completely overpowered, no. But rather than get the nerf bat out, and make the items too underbalanced... make the stats more for players that can use the +wis/int/cha, +sta/agi, etc., so it will in turn make the gear not so much of an upgrade, if you are level 65 and already have wis/int/cha maxxed, sta/agi maxxed, yet will help those up & coming who can still reap the benefits of the +6 mana per wis/int over 200, etc.
Stats *do* matter more here, I've noticed that. I know as a puller (also a druid there, gogo Harmony!) in BoT on Live that I was taunted to get ND3, and told that if I did not believe it, to save the points & go from none to max. It made one heck of a difference. Because my AGI was low, it actually did.
Anyway, I would really like it if a proposal was made like in my previous post. Throw out changes, give the players a chance to comment, and say, Okay, knock X mana off, but *we'd* rather see you throw that mana in X stat.
Also Deepmetal is totally lacking Wis. There are a few bits here and there, but nothing that could appeal a cleric.
Some will answer that SS is geared towards clerics/any caster in general. And I'd answer: what's the point in them being able to wear plate, or just wear the item in the first place?
I think throwing wis on the Deepmetal BP/arms/helm/boots for example wouldn't hurt, and would give a bit more versatility to it. It could also open a bit of a new market for the crafters.
Some will answer that SS is geared towards clerics/any caster in general. And I'd answer: what's the point in them being able to wear plate, or just wear the item in the first place?
I think throwing wis on the Deepmetal BP/arms/helm/boots for example wouldn't hurt, and would give a bit more versatility to it. It could also open a bit of a new market for the crafters.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
Yeah, I am actually. Quest armor should be designed for those specific classes. Silk is geared towards int casters, chain towards chain, etc.
Why is TS armor different? Why should it be different?
The flip side of that is that TS armor should fit those classes though. Plate should be worthwhile for clerics/SK's/Pal/Bard/warrior. Let the augs be the customizers that they were intended to be, but let the base stats reflect those who should be wearing it. Why in gods name does silk have +wisdom? And why should a cleric prefer wearing silk? If you follow the suggestion to limit the classes, you really should make it worthwhile for the classes though.
Let TS armor augment for the lacking slots of Tier 1-3 at least. It is not like you get a full, new set of armor every few tiers. Something needs to fill the holes in.
If TS armor is the end game for the casual player though, make it a rec or Req level of 60 or 65. No level 45 should be running in a set of SS, it is overpowering in that case. However, on a 65 it is not. 60 would also work.
Why is TS armor different? Why should it be different?
The flip side of that is that TS armor should fit those classes though. Plate should be worthwhile for clerics/SK's/Pal/Bard/warrior. Let the augs be the customizers that they were intended to be, but let the base stats reflect those who should be wearing it. Why in gods name does silk have +wisdom? And why should a cleric prefer wearing silk? If you follow the suggestion to limit the classes, you really should make it worthwhile for the classes though.
Let TS armor augment for the lacking slots of Tier 1-3 at least. It is not like you get a full, new set of armor every few tiers. Something needs to fill the holes in.
If TS armor is the end game for the casual player though, make it a rec or Req level of 60 or 65. No level 45 should be running in a set of SS, it is overpowering in that case. However, on a 65 it is not. 60 would also work.
Harziel
Dalayan Beginner
I don't agree with all the points, but I do like the reasoning to making it more appealing to have DM on clerics over SS.
The main reason i'm going for SS over DM on my cleric is because it lacks the wis/cha that Ss offers.
I'm sure i'd add mana augs to the DM instead of the cookie cutter AC augs. (I've thought about doing it already, but the lack of wis was a real turn off to even making the effort).
So More wis on DM, maybe less AC and some of the tanking stats slightly to make room for the wis?
and somehow encourage classes to use their general armor class gear. As far as I know, theres a very small market for DM chain, if at all. I could be horribly wrong but DM chain seems to really appeal more to rangers and less to rogues, and almost not at all to shamans with SS available unless they're going for AC.
The main reason i'm going for SS over DM on my cleric is because it lacks the wis/cha that Ss offers.
I'm sure i'd add mana augs to the DM instead of the cookie cutter AC augs. (I've thought about doing it already, but the lack of wis was a real turn off to even making the effort).
So More wis on DM, maybe less AC and some of the tanking stats slightly to make room for the wis?
and somehow encourage classes to use their general armor class gear. As far as I know, theres a very small market for DM chain, if at all. I could be horribly wrong but DM chain seems to really appeal more to rangers and less to rogues, and almost not at all to shamans with SS available unless they're going for AC.
Syalara
Dalayan Beginner
If you raise the req level to 65, you will see TS'ers losing alot of sales. Many players that can afford TS'd armor do so for twinks/alts and do so at the earliest lvl they can but once they hit 65 can just gear up on raids instead.
Chain right now as was mentioned is pretty much DM Plate w/ less AC. Tempus was hoping to make chain stand out more and not be a copy of plate, I have no idea how he will accomplish this as you will run into the same issue with Warrior/Clerics using plate but instead its Shaman/Rogue or Shaman/Ranger using chain.....they just need such diff stats for the armors to be truly appealing.
Chain right now as was mentioned is pretty much DM Plate w/ less AC. Tempus was hoping to make chain stand out more and not be a copy of plate, I have no idea how he will accomplish this as you will run into the same issue with Warrior/Clerics using plate but instead its Shaman/Rogue or Shaman/Ranger using chain.....they just need such diff stats for the armors to be truly appealing.
Allielyn said:
I would not mind, but you better at least add a variant of plate for clerics and a variant of leather for druids that is worth a damn.
On same note, the same applies with the draconic ect rewards. The leather and plate versions (even ornate) are usually a downgrade for clerics and druids for the work put in to them compared to something like ss.
The rec level should defiantly bumped up as well. I am not saying 65 but 55 or 60 would be good for the intended users, 45 is to low though for it.
Allielyn said:
I rather see them as too good because:
A: DM has too much base AC (and maybe mana)
B: SS has too much base mana
No small stat boost is going to ease the tanks's loss of ac anyways.
I can't see how a + wis would make it overpowered. It would just make it finally appealing to a class that was supposed to be wearing it from the start.
And I agree with Danku that it's crazy to make it nearly necessary for all the casters to wear SS regardless of their class design. However, if that was changed, the nerf would be unbearable to many healers (and there, they could yell NERF hard) .
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