Tradeskill Armor

[Danku]

If you raise the req level to 65, you will see TS'ers losing alot of sales. Many players that can afford TS'd armor do so for twinks/alts and do so at the earliest lvl they can but once they hit 65 can just gear up on raids instead.

By lowering AC you will hurt their sales. By changing out some primary stats you will hurt their sales. By the idea of making it more for players VS twinks why are we suddenly going to worry about sales and desirability now?

TS armor is overpowered, on a level 45. It is ridiculous to think a 45 should be wearing gear that is considered Tier 3 by many of these posters. You really can't have it both ways, either TS armor is ok for a 45 or it is ok for Tier 3. Not both.

 

[kukov]

I think there should definitely be a balance of the items for the classes who can use them.

SS - ENC, MAG, WIZ, NEC
DMP - SHD, PAL, CLR, BRD, WAR
DMC - RNG, ROG, SHM
IH - MNK, BST, DRU

It would be easier to balance if the items themselves were limited to what classes could use them. People can complain about AC on deepmetal all they want but that armor is way more restricted than SS is. Healers shouldn't be wearing SS.

This would help tradeskillers as well since there'd be three different types of armor to sell to the healing classes instead of them all primarily wanting to buy only SS for the enormous mana boost.

In order to not bone the people who already have one type of armor that may not work for them after the change, allow an NPC to swap them something else equivalent to their class for a limited amount of time (like a two or four week window).

 

[Daelius]

most level 45s are not going to be wearing deepmetal. The only ones who are are those who are doing a shitload of farming, or have a bigger main getting the plat. so saying that deepmetal should be good for a 45 is moot. The only reason the rec level was put on was so that people weren't decking out their little level 7 warrior full of deepmetal, making the early game trivial. Unlike at level 7, Deepmetal at 45 does not make the game trivial. Sure, it may be overpowered on a 45, but how many fresh 45 toons are walking around with deepmetal?

The argument of this entire post is that tradeskill armor is overpowered for most 65 characters. So leave the little guys out of it and focus on the main issue.

On that note, any detrimental change in primary stats are going to affect sales at first. But in the end, it won't end demand for it. People are going to still be willing to pay the price for a deepmetal bp over the price, for example, of Yatic's Coat of the Damned. So maybe loosing the raw hp/mana/ac that tradeskill armor has and instead, putting it into primary stats is the right way to go to balance the armor out.

People are gonna cry, its gonna happen. Deal with it as people are trying to make the game better for everyone.

Edit: its hard enough to lhave to change stats on it, to limit the armor would hurt tradeskillers even more

 

[Danku]

Sure, it may be overpowered on a 45, but how many fresh 45 toons are walking around with deepmetal?

What 45's run around with a suit of DM armor? They are called twinks. You give me one reasonable, acceptable position why a twink 45 should even have access to gear that is considered overpowered in someone who raids tier 3?

The argument of this entire post is that tradeskill armor is overpowered for most 65 characters. So leave the little guys out of it and focus on the main issue.

If the position is that the armor is overpowered for a 65 by so many posters, how can you say to leave out the "little guys?" The little guys do not have a single peice of TS armor at 45, unless they have been doing nothing but farming. 2kp to a 45 who doesnt have a level 65 to farm with is a shit-ton of money.

Edit: its hard enough to lhave to change stats on it, to limit the armor would hurt tradeskillers even more

TS tailors will make more imphide and less SS than they do now. TS smiths will sell more DM plate to people with mana and chain if it is made for the classes who it would be limited too.

 

[Syalara]

IMO, get off the rec level thing cause its just another can of worms. SS/DM/DMC does have to compete, whether you like it or not, with high end droppables that do not carry such high end requirements to wear. Raise the rec level, lose sales, its that simple.

 

[Diodimus]

IMO, get off the rec level thing cause its just another can of worms. SS/DM/DMC does have to compete, whether you like it or not, with high end droppables that do not carry such high end requirements to wear. Raise the rec level, lose sales, its that simple.

I thought the focus of this discussion was the power of DM/SS, not the sales? It is true that the only 45 chars with DM are twinks, heck i was thinkin about twinkin my SK with the stuff once he got high enough. But then again, how can it make sense for a lvl 45 char to be able to wear what many of you say is tier 3 gear? Its like *gasp* tradeskill gear that can be used by high tier characters. IMO increasing the rec level is a wonderful idea since it seems to be important to clarify what stage a certain piece of equipment should or should not be used. The only ones hurt by the increased rec level are the twinks.

One thought that i had noticed was never addressed, who are the people who wander into the zones with High-end dropables such as HHK, FR, etc. Seems to me that its the raiders. Is it possible for a group of non-raiding chars with only dropable gear to reach these high-end droppables? If so, my thought is that it is only because of DM/SS.

 

[Danku]

I always thought shadowsilk was over powered. Toss double mana augs on and boom, you are a raid wizard with a healthy mana pool. An extra 60m per piece is just nutty as it doubles the mana in some of the slots.

Maybe I was the exception, but I farmed like mad to buy pieces of Shadowsilk when I was nearing 65 and I started looking for a raid guild cause it was well worth it....and that was before the double aug addition. I dont understand quite clearly why people dont think Tradeskilled top end gear was viable without double augs, its simply not true.

So, as you neared 65 you farmed to get it because it was that good. It helped you get raiding. You worked you ass off to get it.

To give you an idea how far shadowsilk can get you, I wore the Shadowsilk tunic until it was replaced by Combine robe, I wore the arms until they were replaced in PoA, I had a wrist until that was replaced in ValorA.....exactly how far into the raidgame is tradeskilled stuff suposed to take you?

So, TS armor will take you to Combine armor? Nice, it is raid quality gear then.

I geared up a monk using pretty much all Imphide once she hit 45 and I did not feel that was as overpowered as SS and in part I think thats due to what you mentioned above. My augs on her ran the gamut from AC to HP and Resists making the cumulative effect of each type of aug alot less powerful then slapping 60m on every piece of silk gear.

Oh, so the raid quality gear is now not overpowered on a 45. And your monk had resists, stats and tons of other augs. If it would have been a caster, you would have double mana augged and nothing else though.

It dosent matter what armor you wear, fitting into the community is up to the player, not the gear.

BTW, 3 pieces of DM at 62 isnt bad at all. There will always be a gulf between raiders and non raiders, as there should be. The issue w/ alot of the TS'd items is they lessen that gulf and can be comparable to many raid items within the first few tiers, diminishing the value of raiding said tiers. Thats unfair to those who do/can devote the time to excelling in the game, and frankly, a lil unfair to the folks who spent many hours designing and implementing lower end raid content.

Not everyone uses TS armor to skip content. I use a fair bit of it myself and I raid Tiers 1-3. As for this gulf between raiders and casuals, it should exist. It doesn't matter the hours played, efforts made, or difficulties overcome as long as you are a raider you deserve better stuff.

IMO, get off the rec level thing cause its just another can of worms. SS/DM/DMC does have to compete, whether you like it or not, with high end droppables that do not carry such high end requirements to wear. Raise the rec level, lose sales, its that simple.

The moment I suggest raising the rec level to 60+ or making it a required level, THEN you have a problem with it.

Now then, this is not about making a personal attack. This is only an example, Sylara happened to be handy. My apologies Sylara, you happened to be a good example is all. Absolutely nothing personal.

Either the TS armor is or is not Tier 3. If it is then NO level 45 should be wearing it. I do not care if you got one toon to 65 and 500 AAs, TS armor at 45 is too powerful. Obviously, at level 65 you have said they are overpowered. You know this because you used it to skip tiers. (your words) No one should be able to buy gear that is that far above their own tier when the same gear has been deemed overpowered for people raiding tier 3.

There have been alot of posts in this thread. I have tried to put forward nothing but honest ideas, even if they will screw me over. How many can say the same? And yes, if you do not like my post then you can PM me a rant. I honestly do not mind.

 

[Syalara]

You are taking posts outs of context, grats.

I dont feel imphide was as overpowered as tossing +60m on every piece of SS or even 30m before double augs. Ive geared toons using both, if you dont agree with my assessment, so be it.

I dont have a problem with raising the rec level out of personal interest as there are MUCH better items available for most classes in most slots then TS'd armor however they usually cost significantly more per slot. I geared my monk with Imphide cause it was decent and convenient, I didnt have to wait weeks for the items I wanted to be for sale and I could get a full set almost immediately. Raising the rec level removes the convenience for alot of the people who purchase the gear and instead they will most likely shop around for items w/ lower rec levels and better stats, or simply wait and gear up on raid rots, were TS'd armor to be made 65 or even 55 rec level.

You seem to be pretty anti twink and thats fine but if you cant see how making these items less appealing to people with alot of cash would be detrimental to overall sales, then you are being silly.

I also suggest you take another gander at raid loot as most do not carry 65 as a rec level, especially at lower tiers, and that alone makes just about all your points, null.

Saying nobody should be able to buy gear above their own tier is a flat out dumb thing to say. Any gear purchase should be made on items above ones tier, its called upgrading for a reason.

The twinks will not be the ones to suffer here despite all your angst about them, the Tradeskillers will be the ones to suffer cause your idea removes a cash rich portion of the economy from the TS'ers market maybe not entirely, but without a doubt, enough to be felt.

Summary: Tweak the stats of all TS'd armors, leave rec level alone.

 

[Danku]

Anyone is perfectly able to scroll through and read every word anyone wrote including your words. Including the entirety of each post in each quote when responding to a single highlighted point is excessive and wasteful. Also, taking out of context insinuates that I left out relevant infomation. Read back and show me what relevant parts I left out. Find anything that contradicts what quotes I made and my personal view of them.

TS armor fills a hole that was left when lower tier raid mobs loot was made no drop. It filled another hole when the server population doubled.

As for my seeming anti-twink, you seem anti-casual. If TS armor is going to be adjusted it needs to be reviewed in all aspects. The very beginning position is that TS armors are too good for people who raid Tier 1-3. How can you then justify using it on twinks alts at 45?

It is easy to get? Relevant to you, sure. I spent months farming drops and cash to get a set. If I had just become a raider and raided 4 nights a week, then I could have gotten all raid gear in the same time frame. But because I got it through drops and cash farming, I deserve it less than if it was raid gear. You trivialize my personal experience when it is handy, and then simplify yours when it serves your purpose.

And for the record, I do not think a single peice of raid gear should have a Rec or Req level below 60 either. Content skipping is supposed to be a bad thing, so why make it easier?

 

[Daelius]

This is going in circles. Lets get back on track.

Deepmetal/Shadowsilk is overpowered for level 65 early raid toons.

As said many times, shadowsilk has too much raw mana, deepmetal has too much ac. In order to balance these armors, they need to lose some of those overpowered stats and have basic stats raised a little more. Any changes made are not going to make these high end tradeskill armors worthless by any means, it will make them more balanced for what they are supposed to be.

 

[Diodimus]

I have heard several mentions of one of the main focuses was to revamp the DM chain. At this point in time, the only piece that i wear, or even intend to wear, is the Chain coat. When looking at it, to be honest, it seems to be ideal for a ranger. 7 STA,STR,DEX,AGI,CHA. The four primary stats for a ranger or a rogue, plus a little help to CHA for a rangers occasional cast. Rangers and Rogues have nothing to complain about with this particular piece.

If AC is to be taken from this piece as well, I may suggest that WIS be added to make it a viable piece for Shaman. However, that would be a detriment to the Rogues as the would only lose and make no gain.

A thought that has crossed my mind concerning this revamp, as it was mentioned earlier, make a second upper level type aimed more at the WIS casters much akin to the Ghost/Warp metal idea that exists at earlier levels. True this would create more work for the Devs, but it will create a BALANCED viable alternative for every class. AS suggested, make SS for int casters, Deepmetal for tanks(including rangers and rogues although they dont really tank), and the new metal for the healers. This would also make a second type of armor for the smiths much akin to the ability to make SS and IH for the tailors.

Any thoughts?

 

[robopirateninja]

I have heard several mentions of one of the main focuses was to revamp the DM chain. At this point in time, the only piece that i wear, or even intend to wear, is the Chain coat. When looking at it, to be honest, it seems to be ideal for a ranger. 7 STA,STR,DEX,AGI,CHA. The four primary stats for a ranger or a rogue, plus a little help to CHA for a rangers occasional cast. Rangers and Rogues have nothing to complain about with this particular piece.

If AC is to be taken from this piece as well, I may suggest that WIS be added to make it a viable piece for Shaman. However, that would be a detriment to the Rogues as the would only lose and make no gain.

I was thinking that for the armors that are shared between caster and melee classes, TS armors could make use of small item effects or +skill mods.
Take for example a piece of DM chain. A +1 Offense mod would be useful for rangers and rogues but not a shaman, the same way additional mana would be on the same piece. Bonuses like meditation, evocation, and channeling could go on other slots that have more AC or melee stats, so that the cumulative effect of a full suit of armor is less powerful for any single class.

A thought that has crossed my mind concerning this revamp, as it was mentioned earlier, make a second upper level type aimed more at the WIS casters much akin to the Ghost/Warp metal idea that exists at earlier levels. True this would create more work for the Devs, but it will create a BALANCED viable alternative for every class. AS suggested, make SS for int casters, Deepmetal for tanks(including rangers and rogues although they dont really tank), and the new metal for the healers. This would also make a second type of armor for the smiths much akin to the ability to make SS and IH for the tailors.

Any thoughts?

DM comes in two flavors already, chain and plate so it wouldn't be necessary to kit out rangers and rogues in tank plate, if healer metal goes in.

I like the idea in theory, but I almost think it would work better if all the armors were revamped to fit more with the class archetypes than the "armor" archetypes, like the itemization you see on raid jewelry or prim/sec items. It would be a lot of work, and it might upset a lot of tradeskillers, but it solves the problem of trying to balance single items for a tank, a priest, and a hybrid in every slot.

Something like:

DM Plate: WAR, PAL, SHD
???: CLR, DRU, SHM
???: BRD, BST, RNG
Imp Hide?: MNK, ROG
Shadowsilk: ENC, MAG, NEC, WIZ

These are my two crazy ideas for TS items, feel free to rip them apart.

 

[Danku]

Something like:

DM Plate: WAR, PAL, SHD
???: CLR, DRU, SHM
???: BRD, BST, RNG
Imp Hide?: MNK, ROG
Shadowsilk: ENC, MAG, NEC, WIZ

That is about the best idea yet. It would let the designers put the gear into specifically what is needed in it instead of trying to please so many needs at the same time. I think that you could put BST, RNG in with MNK, ROG since they are all DPS or hybrids. Bards maybe there also.

Wouldn't it be cool if the CLR,DRU,SHM armor was made by jewellers?

 

[Zeru]

I dont post often but this is bothering me.

Tradeskill items are supposed to be vastly overpowered.
How dare items take you to a higher teir than 1.

This thread is starting to make me sick. First off, I can't stand people who DO NOT use this armor complaing about it like crazy. It sounds like a lot of people, who probably sit on their butts with nothing better to do, decided they needed something to complain about. And it just so happens to be the armor that every newbie hopes to purchase. It took me a long time to get to lvl 65 with full TS armor. And now some high end raiding people are gonna complain so loud that they are going to get their way? SERIOUSLY stop. How about I complain about how certain people sit in Sorc's Lab ALL day so that nobody can level there? their gear is TOO overpowered for that zone. They can take the whole thing so that NOBODY else can take them. How about you nerf their gear? Its great that raiders with nothing better to do can complain so that casual raiders can't have their armor be on a respectable teir. I like to raid but I can't raid EVERY day. Full TS armor is the best some casual raiders can get to. There is no need to nerf people that aren't even super strong. A large mana pool doesnt make you super uber. Not to mention, the difference is a couple hundred mana in all. Its not the difference between 4k and 6k mana pools. Its the difference between 4 - 4.5k and 5k mana pools. Trust me, my char is that level with that type of gear.

If the people who run this game decide, on their own, to change this.. That is fine. However, dont complain about TS items just because you are done using/abusing them. Let the designers or whoever is in charge of that figure it our for themselves. I don't want my armor nerfed simply because someone barks louder than me.

My main argument for this is: why fix what isn't broken? TS armor helps close the gap. As a game progresses, there should be better dropable gear. Its the way most games go. If we do this now, dropable items can NEVER be better than teir 1. NEVER.

Also, I've heard this in /ooc so I did not come up with this idea. However, it was mentioned that higher level guilds are starting to lose some raid targets to up and coming guilds.. which surprise! Have TS item characters. I'm not 100% sure this is right, but if it is.. higher guilds need to just adjust.

I hope these items dont get nerfed too badly. If it does, I'd be tempted to quit simply because changing my items that I earned seems like an insult.

I'm done.

 

[Diodimus]

I dont post often but this is bothering me.

Tradeskill items are supposed to be vastly overpowered.
How dare items take you to a higher teir than 1.

This thread is starting to make me sick. First off, I can't stand people who DO NOT use this armor complaing about it like crazy. It sounds like a lot of people, who probably sit on their butts with nothing better to do, decided they needed something to complain about. And it just so happens to be the armor that every newbie hopes to purchase. It took me a long time to get to lvl 65 with full TS armor. And now some high end raiding people are gonna complain so loud that they are going to get their way? SERIOUSLY stop. How about I complain about how certain people sit in Sorc's Lab ALL day so that nobody can level there? their gear is TOO overpowered for that zone. They can take the whole thing so that NOBODY else can take them. How about you nerf their gear? Its great that raiders with nothing better to do can complain so that casual raiders can't have their armor be on a respectable teir. I like to raid but I can't raid EVERY day. Full TS armor is the best some casual raiders can get to. There is no need to nerf people that aren't even super strong. A large mana pool doesnt make you super uber. Not to mention, the difference is a couple hundred mana in all. Its not the difference between 4k and 6k mana pools. Its the difference between 4 - 4.5k and 5k mana pools. Trust me, my char is that level with that type of gear.

If the people who run this game decide, on their own, to change this.. That is fine. However, dont complain about TS items just because you are done using/abusing them. Let the designers or whoever is in charge of that figure it our for themselves. I don't want my armor nerfed simply because someone barks louder than me.

My main argument for this is: why fix what isn't broken? TS armor helps close the gap. As a game progresses, there should be better dropable gear. Its the way most games go. If we do this now, dropable items can NEVER be better than teir 1. NEVER.

Also, I've heard this in /ooc so I did not come up with this idea. However, it was mentioned that higher level guilds are starting to lose some raid targets to up and coming guilds.. which surprise! Have TS item characters. I'm not 100% sure this is right, but if it is.. higher guilds need to just adjust.

I hope these items dont get nerfed too badly. If it does, I'd be tempted to quit simply because changing my items that I earned seems like an insult.

I'm done.

I want to make something VERY clear to you. I AGREE with what you say, however it has been stated by a GM that these changes were already being considered. Also, we have moved past the complaining stage and onto the well since its gonna happen, here are my ideas stage.

In short, thanks for voicing your concern, but its not really gonna help at all, we tried. Please if you have some ideas that may be helpful, by all means leave your mark, but if not your pry just wasting your time.

 

[Daelius]

Since i'm too lazy to quote...

Tyrone, are you looking at the entire armor line to be like that? or just High end Tradeskilling?

I personally don't like limiting tradeskill armor to very specific classes. For a while i was wearing imp hide legs simply because they were cheaper than deepmetal, and not too much worse. In the end it makes those armors harder to sell.

I do agree, it does help with balancing, but the tradeskiller is the one who gets hurt with that.

I'm still for adjusting the overpower elements of the high end tradeskill armors and making them more balanced.

 

[Spiritplx]

How about I complain about how certain people sit in Sorc's Lab ALL day so that nobody can level there?

Stop comparing game balancing issues with something totally unrelated. I am truly sorry that because I put a lot of time into raiding and figuring out strats that I can farm light blues effectively. This has nothing to do with the discussion, and MY items already were nerfed.

Not to mention, the difference is a couple hundred mana in all. Its not the difference between 4k and 6k mana pools. Its the difference between 4 - 4.5k and 5k mana pools. Trust me, my char is that level with that type of gear.

Exactly, so if its not THAT big of a difference, why would you care to swap some mana for some stats?


Also, I have already explained that my guild is NOT losing targets due to TS items. This is a terrible argument and I have no idea who started this rumor.

Again, since people keep forgetting...the main point of the post was to rebalance dropable gear COMPARED to raid gear since almost every piece of raid gear above tier 3 was nerfed (even some below that). When I say nerfed, I do not mean "it lost some mana or ac and got some other stats", it just lost stats/effects. Trying to keep TS armor in line with raid gear SHOULD be a goal of the developers. Sorry casual raiders/players are just now feeling the affect of this vast item nerf, but it was bound to happen sometime or another.

If you think all of my suggestions are actually changed, think again. I have posted numerous times and nothing has happened. I only post suggestions to stir up discussion and get the devs thinking. I don't cry when they do/don't change things, because it is usually for the best for the GAME (even if that excludes the individual).

 

[kukov]

Tradeskilled goods are better than some raid gear. So? Not everyone raids. Tradeskilled goods allow those who don't to actually upgrade gear.

Someone working on gathering cash to buy themselves upgrades works no less than someone who lets a guild carry them to their upgrades.

 

[Spiritplx]

Tradeskilled goods are better than some raid gear. So? Not everyone raids. Tradeskilled goods allow those who don't to actually upgrade gear.

Someone working on gathering cash to buy themselves upgrades works no less than someone who lets a guild carry them to their upgrades.

Guess what? I do both. And farming cash is WAY EASIER than putting in all the time to raid. That is the reason not everyone has high end loot, but even casual gamers have dropable gear. I honestly don't understand why people think there should not be a progression in terms of difficulty to obtain versus the power of the item. How does this not make sense?

And yeah, I have put no effort into getting any of my raid gear, I just let everyone do all the work while I go AFK. The casual player base hates the hardcore player base more than the other way around. I just don't understand why you all care so much.

Edit: Farming cash is way easier for the sole purpose I can do it solo (and most people do it duo), and I need at least 12 people to raid to get gear (usually more for what we do). Getting people on every night and figuring out strats is a lot more complicated than doing mindless farming.

 

[shebearcub]

ya'll are talking like imphide, shadowsilk and deepmetal are the only tradekilled armor. When I hit max wyrm and wyvernhide were going for almost the same prices as shadowilk is now. That gear having such a low level requirement pretty much trivialized the whole tier of crafted gear before it.

I agree the recommended level of the top tradeskilled gear should be 65. It may hurt those sales, but will also make the gear before it - useful again. And to the handfull that would say we won't buy it cuz it's not worth it....When the new adjustments have been in place, the rest of the casual and new players that make up 300 online lots of times, will buy it.

I reluctantly agre that the mana/ac should be adjusted on most of this gear - and putting into other useful stats for each peice makes a lot of sense.