Somatic Bond and Avatar of Destruction

[Draeos]

I'm sorry to be this blunt but, Why does the rest of the server care if you have to bot a enchanter?

Edit: Once the GoG thing is fixed and AoD tweaked i am going to bet MAINED enchanters are going to love to see the big numbers they generate witch will make clicking these 2 buttons over and over alot more fun, See Moon Comet and Backstab.

 

[Silosobi]

GoG used to have a recast time such that it could only be kept up on 2 people. I can tell you from experience that staring at a spell gem to make sure you click it as soon as possible is really, really dreary. And at least at the time it made it so there was no way to burn and really no way to use up your mana at all as an Enchanter. It was pretty sucky.

I personally never found AoD/GoG to be particularly fun mechanics to begin with.

Regardless of how fun enchanters are, I dont think any class should be so powerful they are required to beat any on tier fight. Do people really disagree with that?

 

[Silosobi]

I'm sorry to be this blunt but, Why does the rest of the server care if you have to bot a enchanter?

Because lots of other guilds have the same problem. Its never fun to bring a box over someone's main. Stuff like that is really good at making people quit the game, I've seen it happen countless times.

 

[Draeos]

I personally never found AoD/GoG to be particularly fun mechanics to begin with.

Regardless of how fun enchanters are, I dont think any class should be so powerful they are required to beat any on tier fight. Do people really disagree with that?

When that class is its own archetype i see no issue with that at all

 

[Zaela]

I'd still love to hear how many encounters you wouldn't need a Bard for.

I'm really wondering how much utility Enchanters would be providing without GoG and AoD. Mezz, that dampening thing, runes, uh..?

 

[Rorne]

Do people really disagree with that?

Probably not but it might be a necessary evil for now at least, I mean as you pointed out the power curve of enchanters took a huge swing northwards with the addition of stuff like AoD and as other classes gained in power which they rely on magnifying. You were talking about reducing their direct increases to damage in favour of more varied contributions but utility can be a highly subjective thing, how do you add enough weight to their abilities without designing gimmick fights that just make them required all over again just for different reasons.

 

[Zaela]

Because lots of other guilds have the same problem. Its never fun to bring a box over someone's main. Stuff like that is really good at making people quit the game, I've seen it happen countless times.

You keep saying this and it makes me wonder if it's really the class rather than just the fact that you have to box them. If you didn't have a mained Bard, would you be making the same arguments for them?

 

[Silosobi]

Bards are very similar to enchanters. Certain encounters require you have MOTS and Dampening, so those encounters will require both classes, but outside of that, I'm fine raiding without a bard. You lose fiery/debuffs, which probably do contribute more than other dps, but its not so much more that they are required.

Enchanters add Shared Mind, Mez, Dampening, Slows, Runes, Curses, Charm, Debuffs, Best haste in the game, Best mana regen in the game.

I'm also not suggesting we totally remove AoD/GoG, just that we reduce the number of targets they can keep up.

 

[Silosobi]

You keep saying this and it makes me wonder if it's really the class rather than just the fact that you have to box them. If you didn't have a mained Bard, would you be making the same arguments for them?

Only when MOTS is absolutely required.

Id wager beastlords add more dps than a bard, and we raid without a beastlord.

BST/BRD dont come close to contributing as much to a raid as an enchanter does, though.

 

[Zaela]

Slows, Charm, Debuffs, Best haste in the game, Best mana regen in the game.

We're talking about raids here, I thought.

 

[cian2]

for the most part, bards stop being required when pot4 stops being required. sanctum being probably the first example. however, they are still very good

 

[Silosobi]

When that class is its own archetype i see no issue with that at all

Enchanters are a not their own archetype IMO. If they were, I would lump bards, and potentially BST/NEC in with them. To some degree these classes are interchangeable. MOTS/Dampening help reduce spell damage. A bard can do haste and mana regen. A BST can buff caster dps if fiery isnt available. A BST/NEC can help mez/charm.

The issue here is just that once enchanters got dampening, and enough mana to endlessly aod/gog, they shot up in power so much that they became irreplacible. Like Bango said, we would raid with 3 of them if they could. Enchanters are the most powerful class in the game at high tiers.

Maybe buff aod/gog to be a tad stronger, code them so they can only be on two targets at a time (ignoring the enchanter themselves to retain True Giant viability). Could give enchanters some more utility type things to use in the downtime, but endless spamming of aod/gog is insanely powerful.

 

[Zaela]

I'm also not suggesting we totally remove AoD/GoG, just that we reduce the number of targets they can keep up.

Alright. So we take out dampening and make it so you can only use GoG and AoD on one person at a time each. The Enchanter spends their ~5 second casting those two spells, and now they are waiting 19 seconds for the first one to come off cooldown.

What do they do with the rest of their time and all that mana they have? Can't do that True Giant thing because GoG has already been used (ignoring reuse time is not possible because of the client). Spam rune? What fun things are there to do in the meantime that will make people want to play Enchanters where there's nothing to mezz? WHAT utility in the downtime?

 

[Silosobi]

We're talking about raids here, I thought.

Yes, ive seen all those used on raids.

 

[Silosobi]

Alright. So we take out dampening and make it so you can only use GoG and AoD on one person at a time each. The Enchanter spends their ~5 second casting those two spells, and now they are waiting 19 seconds for the first one to come off cooldown.

What do they do with the rest of their time and all that mana they have? Can't do that True Giant thing because GoG has already been used (ignoring reuse time is not possible because of the client). Spam rune? What fun things are there to do in the meantime that will make people want to play Enchanters where there's nothing to mezz? WHAT utility in the downtime?

Either code it so that aod+gog can only be on two targets (ignoring enchanter), but the cd remains 0, or just make true giant trigger off a different spell (hell add back in self only Gift of Giantkin, True Giant was a cooler name anyway)

Enchanters can then use runes, vex, catatonia. I'd be all for adding in some new spells here to make the enchanter feel more active, useful, and interesting without adding crazy amounts of dps. Potential spells that could get added:
A healer version of aod/gog - 20% spellhaste and 20% extra healing. - would also only be on 1 person at a time.
A targeted -agro spell, so wizards or rangers dont have to spend as much time jolting.
Any short duration debuff (- accuracy, -AC, -resists, etc)
A Target's Target gains +1000 agro to make Pally/Warrior tanks more viable on max burn raid targets.

There are lots of fun little things that could make an enchanter feel really useful (and without a doubt they would be), without making them such a massive dps contribution that they are required.

 

[Zaela]

Maybe.

A short duration debuff is what I was thinking of and I also think it sounds really annoying.

Aggro things might be nice for the situations when someone loses/gains aggro, but for the most part if your allies are doing things right I would think you'd never be able to tell if casting them was completely pointless or not (makes you feel very useful).

Maybe a healer thing but that would just be another hotkey. Also I have to wonder if Enchanters will be able to hold so many long recast things on their spellbar. (curses + GoG-type things = 6 out of 8 slots? Add Vex and Catatonia and you're gonna be waiting around a lot and benefiting from none of all this utility).

 

[Silosobi]

2 curses + 3 gog things = room for 3 debuffs/runes

A combined curse spell could be good if spellgems are an issue.

Short debuffs might be annoying, I felt more engaged casting vex/catatonia than i did with aod hotkeys.

The agro buffs are hard to see direct benefit from, but they are not as simple as 'players doing things right', wizards have to sacrafice cast time and mana that could be spent on dps to concussion, so if an enchanter can guarantee the mob stays on the paladin that is another indirect way to increase dps.

 

[Zaela]

The agro buffs are hard to see direct benefit from, but they are not as simple as 'players doing things right', wizards have to sacrafice cast time and mana that could be spent on dps to concussion, so if an enchanter can guarantee the mob stays on the paladin that is another indirect way to increase dps.

Was the idea not to limit the amount that Enchanters can increase a raid's DPS? I wouldn't want to risk it. Particularly as Wizard DPS goes up a lot in the very high end.

 

[Silosobi]

This is pretty out there, but give Enchanters(or maybe other classes) the ability to summon a Hideous Abomination or Feral Elemental. Just a mob that is the max level for long duration charm, so that enchanters can have a solid pet in places where they would otherwise not find one. If you want it to be more stable/reliable, make it die when the enchanter dies so it doesnt rage on remaining raid members.

 

[Silosobi]

Was the idea not to limit the amount that Enchanters can increase a raid's DPS? I wouldn't want to risk it. Particularly as Wizard DPS goes up a lot in the very high end.

Yes, it is, but not having to concussion is only a 10-20% boost on the very worst fights, and I think wizards have the biggest issue there. Its also a role that can be filled by simply having a SK tank. Wouldn't ever be the massive dps boost that gog/aod have become.