rogues, my 2cp

It was my only faux-pas and at the time I was for some reason thinking of "self-buffs" only and got confused. I'm sorry Bran. If it makes you feel any better, I have a list of tweaks and re-parsing that I'mma planning on doing, and it's on my list. <3
 
Allielyn said:
The mob was too high for cripples, yes, so currently I'd guess rangers still have a nice advantage there. It just won't show on raid trash/bosses.

Characters were buffed with most major long term buffs, but without styles, short term atk clickies, or short term buffs such as savagery and giantkin. The goal was not to parse MAX dps per class, but comparable dps per class.
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Shouldn't styles have been accounted for in these parses as well? Styles are an integral part of melee classes, and part of what makes them separate and discrete. To ignore combat styles while comparing class dps seems pretty :psyduck: to me. Rogues have a style that reads "Deadly precision: increase accuracy and damage" and rangers get "Automatically Succeed Double Attack and Dual Wield. Requires 2 Weapons." Neither of those lead me to believe they drain your stamina intensely, making them suitable for long-duration use. I don't think you can assume that they would both increase dps in exactly the same ratio, and ensure class balance.

Leaving out high-end gear clickies I can see as reasonable, although if you equip the items to test the comparative dps across tier levels, the items were balanced against each other with the though that the characters would actually be using the clickies on them.

To make an accurate comparison you need to control variables, and the only variable in these parses should have been the class parsed, played to their full potential. If you don't want to fuss with buffs, fine, do it completely unbuffed, or only with the buffs the class you are parsing can cast. If you use cotp on the ranger, then the beastlord should be using savagery on himself and his pet every time it pops, as an example. Otherwise you end up with a skewed perception of both actual dps and dps when compared between classes.

Nobody is trying to shit on your parses or the effort you put into them, but from what you have posted about your methods they seem flawed.
 
No. The key was comparability. All the classes parsed have styles that increased their dps. I wasn't parsing for maximum dps, only comparability. By not utilizing styles, I was able to do that.

Now, if different melee class styles serve to severely unbalance these dps classes, that's NOT a problem with melee dps balance, but with the styles themselves. By eliminating this variable I also eliminated the possibility of coming up with bogus numbers affected by styles, and was able to effectively measure the balance.

If someone wants to parse the effects of styles on general melee dps, then that's something else to consider. But it would not have been appropriate to do so in these tests.

As I have said, the Cotp issue was probably a mistake. And an easily corrected one, at that. I still stand by my initial parses, that's the only thing I would change. Everything else was VERY well controlled.
 
robopirateninja said:
Shouldn't styles have been accounted for in these parses as well? Styles are an integral part of melee classes, and part of what makes them separate and discrete. To ignore combat styles while comparing class dps seems pretty :psyduck: to me. Rogues have a style that reads "Deadly precision: increase accuracy and damage" and rangers get "Automatically Succeed Double Attack and Dual Wield. Requires 2 Weapons." Neither of those lead me to believe they drain your stamina intensely, making them suitable for long-duration use. I don't think you can assume that they would both increase dps in exactly the same ratio, and ensure class balance.
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The Rogue stance drains stamina at a considerable rate. It is not as fast as the Dodge stance, but it is fast enough that I can hit it at about 10-20% on the mob and I will run out of stamina at about 0-5%.

The Ranger stance however, does not drain stamina(AFAIK.). It also is (half)useless with AAs like Ambidexterity.

There are a couple numbers in this thread that make me go :psyduck:, like the Rogue out-DPSing Ranger Bow DPS, but Allie did a fantastic job on the parses.
 
robopirateninja said:
you're comparing auto attack on multiple boxes, not class dps.
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You're wrong. All dps classes get different styles to increase their dps - all of them drain stamina. If there are problems with styles, ITS WITH STYLES, and not with general melee class dps balancing.

Oh wait - I really must have done it wrong! Because I didn't know that Rangers doing Archery with Bows had an autoattack butan :psyduck:
 
All dps stances are intended to provide the same % of dps increase despite the type of bonus they give? I was totally unaware of this and thought that they were meant to be used at the players discretion situationally, and were meant to add utility to the classes.

However if they are not intended to add any difference whatsoever between the classes then I guess completely ignoring them for class comparisons is fine, and I was totally wrong, and sny disparity between the % difference of your parses and characters actually played by players must mean that the stances are flawed.
 
If styles give a disproportionate amount of dps increase to any one of those classes, than that's something that needs to be taken into account: in the style system.

It would be highly inappropriate to address an issue of style balancing in the innate modifier that classes get for their damage output from weapons - which is what is changed when Wiz decides that XXX class dps is too high.
 
I'm not saying styles don't affect class dps, I'm just saying it was inappropriate to measure that variable here.

If you have issues with any class styles possibly causing balancing issues, feel free to post them in this forum. Be sure to include the classes you're referring to, the style referred to, the style description, how fast it drains stamina, whether it's stoppable, and what dps increase said class gains from it.
 
How can you compare raid dps without including styles, isn't that what is trying to be balanced here? Now obviously you need a shitload of stuff for max raid dps like striking curse and whatnot, but what you compared was solo dps with some outside buffs included or what?

Edit: Also is it just /auto on and let it parse or did you nuke and such with the appropriate classes (this probably lowers the high end chars dps for but lower end chars it could help)
 
I think that the problem here is that everyone thinks that you are comparing the dps from these classes, and nobody until now has mentioned that you are only comparing straight melee dps output with as little input from the players as possible.

This is the source of the confusion, I have no specific complaints about stances, I just could not understand how you could claim to be comparing the dps output of these classes for balancing issues without taking them into account.
 
Widan said:
How can you compare raid dps without including styles, isn't that what is trying to be balanced here? Now obviously you need a shitload of stuff for max raid dps like striking curse and whatnot, but what you compared was solo dps with some outside buffs included or what?
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I don't think she was comparing raid DPS. I think she was comparing base DPS of the classes.

Raid DPS scales in VERY different ways. On raids, Mike chain Giantkins me pretty much unless theres a more important thing to do, like keep mobs locked down. This makes my DPS go from about 50% backstab to about 30-40% backstab since the Giantkin overhaste doesn't affect my backstab timer, only the rest of my DPS. It also gives a huge DPS boost.

On raids I can hit my ring and get another like 200 attack. I can also have Savagery which is insane attack. Like you said striking curse. You can organize your stances around striking curse, such as me hitting /s 6 during that, then hitting at other points during the fight to get the most out of it.

It is REALLY hard to balance raid DPS because no two guilds raid the same way. If you balance the DPS at the core(what Allie did) it's easier to control the outcomes. Stances just add that player input dps boost that you varies from player to player.

If that makes any sense.
 
Ok, my mistake I thought it was more geared towards raiding. But if you are trying to balance base/melee dps shouldn't classes be limited to self only buffs to make it more accurate?
 
Brimztone said:
I don't think she was comparing raid DPS. I think she was comparing base DPS of the classes.

Raid DPS scales in VERY different ways. On raids, Mike chain Giantkins me pretty much unless theres a more important thing to do, like keep mobs locked down. This makes my DPS go from about 50% backstab to about 30-40% backstab since the Giantkin overhaste doesn't affect my backstab timer, only the rest of my DPS. It also gives a huge DPS boost.

On raids I can hit my ring and get another like 200 attack. I can also have Savagery which is insane attack. Like you said striking curse. You can organize your stances around striking curse, such as me hitting /s 6 during that, then hitting at other points during the fight to get the most out of it.

It is REALLY hard to balance raid DPS because no two guilds raid the same way. If you balance the DPS at the core(what Allie did) it's easier to control the outcomes. Stances just add that player input dps boost that you varies from player to player.

If that makes any sense.
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Thanks Brimz, that's exactly what I was trying to say, but apparently failing at.
 
Widan said:
Ok, my mistake I thought it was more geared towards raiding. But if you are trying to balance base/melee dps shouldn't classes be limited to self only buffs to make it more accurate?
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she already mentioned that that is one of the potential flaws in her parses.

personally i would say to make the parses completely buffless, since the buffs you roll with are just as individual as your use of stances, and to make a fair use of self buffs you would need to be recasting savagery every 3 minutes which would be pretty annoying for a parse of several hours.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is if you buffed the beastlord's pet during these parses as well, that's another possible source of skewed numbers.
 
Assuming that each class gains the same % increase in dps from the few raid buffs I did toss, the scale comparison for unbuffed parsing would be exactly the same, and just as valid. Parsing with self buffs only wouldn't be as valid because I wasn't trying to compare solo dps for balancing: Some classes aren't MEANT to solo as well as others. But again, if you have an issue with solo dps balancing with the pure melee classes, feel free to post in this forum with details.

Yes, the pet was buffed . . with exactly the same buffs that everybody else had, plus the important pet-only buffs that the beastlord has.

I don't know why you seem to have this complex that I have no idea what I am doing, introduced error everywhere, and relied on no input from any of the classes represented. Just because I didn't ask YOU in game what I should do to help balance parsing the melee classes that it seems apparent you don't play doesn't mean I flew this ship solo.

I suppose I can be happy if the ONLY mistake I made in hours of parsing between twelve different near perfectly balanced players (balanced between skills, weapons, items, stats, AAs, focus effects, crit strike, and general gear) was using cotp on the ranger, and every single player that has a melee main and has responded has done so favorably. Not to sound rude, but I don't think that you two know exactly what you're talking about, here.
 
robopirateninja said:
she already mentioned that that is one of the potential flaws in her parses.

personally i would say to make the parses completely buffless, since the buffs you roll with are just as individual as your use of stances, and to make a fair use of self buffs you would need to be recasting savagery every 3 minutes which would be pretty annoying for a parse of several hours.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is if you buffed the beastlord's pet during these parses as well, that's another possible source of skewed numbers.
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Why exactly are you so intent on ripping apart these perfectly fine(and accurate) parses of the base dps of the classes?

And if that's not your intent, what is your intent from these posts?
 
My complex is that a massive change was made to a class on the basis of flawed parses that ignored the abilities of the classes they were supposed to balance. I'm not trying to attack you at all, but to make an accurate and fair change to gameplay accurate and extensive logs ARE required. Yes, it will be time-consuming and annoying and it may not be complete this week or next week or even in two months. I appreciate the time you have put in already, and gearing out all of those characters to appropriately represent different tier levels must have been another headache in itself.

If you want volunteers to help with this to save you some time I'm sure there are many players who would be willing to do some parses, and with adequate instruction on what to do and when they should be accurate, and cut down the turnaround time.

I don't think I claimed anywhere that I was an expert on melee classes; I main a magician and a wizard. I don't think it's necessary that you consult me when parsing classes I don't play. I do think that without adequate control over experimental variables you will see flawed results.

edit: I guess I'm coming across as a jerk, but I'm not trying to at all.

I'll stop posting in this thread after this because my main point: that from what I have read/understand in Allielyn's posts about her method for parsing class dps they are not accurate has been made as well as I can make it. I'm really not looking to argue any more, and more posting is just going to make me look bad and get more people upset.
 
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