Nonlinear Monk Glove Progression
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So, this is a real thing that happened that I am deeply ashamed of to this day..... I printed off a page from the wiki for every single monk glove from tier 0 to t13 and laid them out across the floor of an empty office in a giant grid arranged by tier and damage potential. I dragged Slaariel into the office and made him look at it. I showed him the progression curve and how it basically flattens in t9 with "Silence" and does not increase very much at all after that for 4 tiers and how the BW gloves were nerfed 3 different ways when maybe only one of those things was appropriate. I suggested that he look at some of the current "fist weapons" because they are not being used by monks at all anymore and maybe consider changing them or making them equip-able in the hand slot in order to fill some itemization gaps...... He agreed that the curve flattened and that he would look at it......
And that is the story of why Silence got nerfed. The end. I hope you all learned something from my story.
And that is the story of why Silence got nerfed. The end. I hope you all learned something from my story.
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sabuti
Dalayan Elder
We are in the age of Lord Rymy now... have faith, Fiddle
Haenir
Dalayan Master
Melee scaling in general is/has been pretty bad. At like tier 6 you hit 10% worn crit, tier 10 150 worn attk, and then its basically wait for a weapon w/ better ratio to see any significant growth in your dps output. And you get silly situations like these uc vs bw gloves or the ranged item I'm currently wearing (tmap item with +4 offense).
The monk str/dex scaling is a step in the right direction. But yeah, these gloves should probably be rebalanced. Maybe the rarity is the balance /shrug
The monk str/dex scaling is a step in the right direction. But yeah, these gloves should probably be rebalanced. Maybe the rarity is the balance /shrug
So the best things that can be done to help scale the items is really smaller things. The reason Gloves are such good DPS is cause h2h is so good. So, to help the progression smaller things have to be done.
Silence= take away some dex/str - out some h2h.
UC= take away some dex/str - out some h2h, - out an elemental dmg, and maybe change proc to a lower dmg and up the proc-rate to like 5%. I would only suggest the proc-change if you can find something a little smaller (like 300 the smallest, 350 ideally.)
Bw= You can't buff these too much. They are strong as is, but i think a H2H bonus of at least 10 is appropriate for a T13 item. Basis of this claim? Cuso Sword, + 10. Conglo ring +10. Custo Ear +10. Signet of the Bruiser +10. Silence +10, Handwraps of Twisted Souls + 10. All in all, I think +10 h2h on a T13 item isn't that OP, Considering you can't wear many of the H2h items other than Spires BP.
So yeah, small things, but they do start to create a fine-line between the items. UC gloves down to +5 elemental dmg, both gloves at like...+10 str and Dex. Maybe lower UC's proc-rate with current proc (since lets face it Silence is 6% proc chance, for a base of (MAYBE idk which obsidian shards it is anymore lol) 125 pts of dmg, vs a 4.5% proc chance for 400 base dmg.)
Silence= take away some dex/str - out some h2h.
UC= take away some dex/str - out some h2h, - out an elemental dmg, and maybe change proc to a lower dmg and up the proc-rate to like 5%. I would only suggest the proc-change if you can find something a little smaller (like 300 the smallest, 350 ideally.)
Bw= You can't buff these too much. They are strong as is, but i think a H2H bonus of at least 10 is appropriate for a T13 item. Basis of this claim? Cuso Sword, + 10. Conglo ring +10. Custo Ear +10. Signet of the Bruiser +10. Silence +10, Handwraps of Twisted Souls + 10. All in all, I think +10 h2h on a T13 item isn't that OP, Considering you can't wear many of the H2h items other than Spires BP.
So yeah, small things, but they do start to create a fine-line between the items. UC gloves down to +5 elemental dmg, both gloves at like...+10 str and Dex. Maybe lower UC's proc-rate with current proc (since lets face it Silence is 6% proc chance, for a base of (MAYBE idk which obsidian shards it is anymore lol) 125 pts of dmg, vs a 4.5% proc chance for 400 base dmg.)
Melee DPS is weird in this game though. Most of the time it just straight up revolves around Procs. I parsed a Rogue with Custo Sword and his 4.3 Sword, auto attacking with at least haste, He did about 450 DPS. He was not Backstabbing, he was only auto attacking. My hypothesis is...The items we are talkin about have no Direct dmg procs. Now, I'm not debating Rogue DPS -I'm not a rogue, and don't know enough about rogues to really fight the battle for them- but, he helps into my theory which is, Melee DPS is all about the proc and how consistent it is. Silence was always good DPS cause 1.) Mnk H2H has a decent base, and 2.) the proc is 6% which is a decent area. I use to debate Ules Conception over Silence cause the Proc was so consistent that it made up for the loss of dmg. For the main point though, currently, Melee DPS is hyper dependent on the proc and its proc-rate. U can have a 2.0 ratio wep, but a 1.0 ratio wep with a 10% proc of about...200ish Dmg would probably out do it. Just how it works atm.
Just as a side note, Mnks and Bsts shouldn't share the same Horoks. Their classes are too different and a Mnk would be better off with old Shatter Reality, while Bst would be better off with the current Horoks. Mnk weapons are best used for Sustain than for all out DPS. After all, you lose more DPS equipping a weapon than you would gain.
Just as a side note, Mnks and Bsts shouldn't share the same Horoks. Their classes are too different and a Mnk would be better off with old Shatter Reality, while Bst would be better off with the current Horoks. Mnk weapons are best used for Sustain than for all out DPS. After all, you lose more DPS equipping a weapon than you would gain.
Haenir
Dalayan Master
Tangential, but just fyi the real reason why custo sword proc is good for rogues is that it adds 37.5% damage to backstab (for backstab -- if haste > 100 ... add ((damage/2)*(haste-100))/100). On most things other than dragons, rogue melee will show a very small difference between custo sword and say the dagger from spires.
Ezie3205
Dalayan Elder
You take any of the top 3 gloves down and a t3 BoE will become best in slot. Monk h2h damage isn't so wildly out of wack that these gloves need nerfing at all, what we need is a small boost to Matron's gloves and a more linear progression for gloves to even out the rough spots because right now there might as well only be 4 gloves in the game and not because those gloves are so amazing but because there is literal fuck all anywhere else.
Haenir
Dalayan Master
I wonder if instead of glove +elemental damage progression, you could tie progression to type 5 +elemental damage augs. Casters would be on them too so its not a unitasker. Scale it so every +3 or +4 of elemental damage is equal to +1 on current monk gloves.
E.g., progression would be something more like (personally I like the idea of elemental damage augs coming from planar themed zones, but /shrug) --
E.g., progression would be something more like (personally I like the idea of elemental damage augs coming from planar themed zones, but /shrug) --
- +4 elemental damage augs -- crafted with trade skills
- +8 elemental damage augs -- crafted with trade skills
- +12 elemental damage augs -- dropped by planar raid trash
- +16 elemental damage augs -- dropped by planar raid bosses
- +20 elemental damage augs -- dropped by thaz raid trash
- +24 elemental damage augs -- dropped by thaz raid bosses
- etc
Kedrin
Dalayan Pious Diety
Sounds like my Ranger Arrow idea.
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
This is definitely cool but I feel like it's trying to reinvent the wheel. Seems a lot more complicated than just lightly tweaking an existing item
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
I might be missing something but I don't understand how this fixes progression or solves the issue at all.
EDIT: Taking a closer look, I think this actually makes monk glove progression even worse if by adding these augs you remove the ele damage on gloves.
Haenir
Dalayan Master
I agree it would be simpler to just tweak existing items so that class benefit actually reflects difficulty to obtain.
You may be right that it would make glove progression worse -- if you're assuming gloves should be completely linear.
This idea would make glove progression more about stats/proc and less about the +dmg. So you could have things like mistborn gloves being a good single target proc, BW gloves a good AoE proc, etc. Which could give barefisting monks more viable glove choices. It doesn't make for a clean linear progression -- and you'd need to tweak glove stats/procs. But its not a completely foreign idea of progression.
The aug idea is more a broader thought, which probably would need refining and only be part of a larger item rebalancing. But the main benefits I see are:
You may be right that it would make glove progression worse -- if you're assuming gloves should be completely linear.
This idea would make glove progression more about stats/proc and less about the +dmg. So you could have things like mistborn gloves being a good single target proc, BW gloves a good AoE proc, etc. Which could give barefisting monks more viable glove choices. It doesn't make for a clean linear progression -- and you'd need to tweak glove stats/procs. But its not a completely foreign idea of progression.
The aug idea is more a broader thought, which probably would need refining and only be part of a larger item rebalancing. But the main benefits I see are:
(1) you wouldn't be constrained by the elemental type on a given glove (i.e., my understanding is UC gloves are better than BW gloves in a lot of situations because they're disease based dmg and not fire). The type of elemental damage used could be chosen by the monk. And would also mean that devs would be less constrained in putting resists on content since players would have a way to adapt to mobs with differing resists.
(3) tangential and not related to monks -- it would give casters more options on augs, and add a new set of consumable tradeskill products.
(3) tangential and not related to monks -- it would give casters more options on augs, and add a new set of consumable tradeskill products.
I think Ezie has a point, there is a couple things that need changed if you want to really make the progression linear:
#1 (Srry nub mnks) Saturated Spirit Gloves would probably need looking at. If you nerf the current top 3 too much it WILL become 1 of the best gloves. (I forgot about those lol.
#2 MORE GLOVES! The biggest problem is that there is only 4 real sets of gloves. Saturated Spirit Gloves, Silence, UC Gloves, and BW Gloves.
#3 I still say Silence and UC gloves should be slightly nerfed, Though Uc gloves should come out on-top of Silence since its a Tier Higher. I also still say slight buffs to BW Gloves wouldn't be too bad as long as their areas that don't blow Mnk DPS outta proportion.
On #3 I'd like to go a bit in-depth there. We all agree that more Proc-rate is probably asking too much. You could balance that area, lesser dmg, more proc-rate yadda yadda, but there are some other areas to just take into consideration. To really solidify BW Gloves as top you could add a clicky to really help things out. Smaller spells like a Yaulp line would be pretty good on mnks, Something like Twelve Tone Rhymth probably wouldn't be too strong. Make it clickable from Inventory for future Progression. Warrior is the only other class that could benefit from a Yaulp 2-3 -i'm assuming 4 isn't going to happen, and Yaulp 1 is a bit too meh for the buffslot. For Warriors if the stam effect is considered to strong it could always be changed to stam regen which if I'm not mistaken doesn't help warriors.
Anyways, I just feel like the Item itself is in a decent place, and that upping the Elemental Dmg, or upping the Proc might be too much of a buff. So I personally am looking for other ways. Like small Clickies. Yaulp is probably 1 of the best possible clicky the item could have, as the Str and AC is very nice for a mnk. Yaulp 4 would even have attack but I think the +40 Str is a bit much. The main Idea though is a perma clicky, or a small CD clicky, a bit like Healer's Gheal clickies. If anything a 1-2 min CD max.
While typing this I had another idea. Xenelaqui's Melody could BE the clicky. Move-speed, Innate Proc, HoT, Cunning for Magic spells (we don't have a ton of magic cept Sonic Blades itself). It has usefulness in Auxing/Tanking WWs/Ramps, adds some DPS. Might need some testing, Idk how much dmg Sonic Blades would do with 2 full Stat Fists swinging, but that is what Cooldowns are for right?
(if others seen the previous post, I editted it out cause after thinkin about it, even at like 15% proc-rate I don't think Melody as the proc would fix a lot)
Anyways, Srry for the Wall of Text, I always feel a need to explain my ideas fully.
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Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
You can not have a proc and a clicky on the same item, so there is that, sorry.
Also I'm not a monk, so enlighten me if I'm missing something glaringly obvious, but what is wrong with Claws of the Beast (no proc, but instead skill mod) or Ule's Conception (other then that your local ENC will hate you for mez breaks)? That would put us to atleast 6 MNK gloves now.
Also I'm not a monk, so enlighten me if I'm missing something glaringly obvious, but what is wrong with Claws of the Beast (no proc, but instead skill mod) or Ule's Conception (other then that your local ENC will hate you for mez breaks)? That would put us to atleast 6 MNK gloves now.
Claws only has 5 dmg on it and it's probably the most resisted type of dmg, and the no proc thing kills it.. Plus you turn into that annoying dog, which really sucks for monks since you swing a lot. Ule's has a crappy proc, which is like a third of our dps probably, and as you alluded to, they're unusable in half the situations. Imo Matron's should at least have the same 10 h2h mod the others have just off the top, and even then I wouldn't think they would be in balance with the rest progression-wise. I've been hesitant to suggest anything, because I hate nerfs in general, and think they're bad for the server, and while I think Matron's could use a small bump outside of the h2h suggestion, I think half the problem lies in how strong the others are. Before you get one of the T9ish gloves you kinda struggle, and then bam, 6 ele mod... and then there's nothing until you manage to kill one of the most difficult monsters in the game, and you get the same ele mod as Silence, UC, and Ule, and it's fire-based... Again though, knocking one or more of those down a hair, especially at this point in the server's history, is only gonna run more folks off, as we've seen time and time again.
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