Nonlinear Monk Glove Progression

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sabuti

Dalayan Elder
For awhile now, a few other monks and I have chatted about wanting Handwraps of Twisted Souls(Tier 10) for EXP and certain raid encounters, given that they are disease based and not fire, like The Matron's Grasp(Tier 13). It was not until recently that I realized that these tier 10 gloves are almost on par with the tier 13 gloves, and even better in certain situations. A quick side by side comparison enables us to see how;

Here you can see, for a 3 tier difference, the cons are as follows;
  • losing 3 Hand to Hand mod,
  • losing 1.6% proc chance
  • getting fire elemental damage which is probably the most resisted element in the game
  • getting no extra elemental damage
The Pros are;
  • Stats/hp
  • Gaining 240 damage on the proc (while losing a huge chunk of procrate)
Obviously something is not right here, and that is because the original Grasp were much stronger than their current iteration (+2 fire damage, AOE, damage building proc) and when they've been rebalanced multiple times, Serizus gloves have been untouched.

Clearly, reverting Blazewind gloves with the current state of monks could completely break the games balance. I'm not asking for that, I'm simply asking for the progression of items to be linear, because as is, going from Serizus to Blazewind gloves is "meh, more stats and hp I guess". Infact, I have been considering pugging Undercity to get a pair on my character because they are so good, and that is clearly not right. This is like wanting Branch of Conquering Legacies over Windblaze for certain situations, when in reality the difference in those two items are absolutely MASSIVE, even though they are both from the same 2 mobs at hand. Thanks
 

Ezie3205

Dalayan Elder
Let the monks stuck with Silence do the UC pugs =P

Before this next part I just want to say that I think monks are a solid class, but seriously there is some weak itemization for monks t7-11. We only really have 1 item past tier 3 that has +flying kick. Kinda got to scramble to keep h2h at 25+ because I get at least 60dps going from +20 h2h to +25. Non h2h capped monks will find the charm of the brute still beats out a juggo. Monks have to work to get disarm skill.

Saturated Spirit Gloves still beat pretty much every glove before t9 and I haven't tested them but I suspect they beat claws of the beast. A fairly hard t9 in EF drops pretty much the next upgrade from a BoE and then that leaves you with 2 glove options which are t10 and t13.

Personally, I know Dragonkin has had horrible luck on getting those UC gloves to drop. In well over 45 attempts in the last 2 years we have seen them drop once. Now we're tier'd past what is probably my largest dps increase.

Even given these shortcomings I think monks are in a pretty good place but could benefit from either getting a few more glove options like at t8 and t11 or have a few items tweaked to have a smoother transition. It just feels like you either get SSG or Flowing Red Leaf-wraps and wait till Claws of the Beast, Silence or UC gloves and then make a decision if you want to be a t13 raider to get Matron's Grasp. The MielD gloves look good on paper but I haven't gotten a good performance out of them and the Windstone gloves feel like they were just RNG oriented for dps and I don't personally find fun in crossing my fingers and hoping for procs.
 
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iBluNT

Dalayan Elder
When you decide to pug it let me know. I'd like to wear the Branch over Windblaze too.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
Yeah, I've killed Serizus almost 200 times and seen 3 gloves with no luck on rolls or char I was playing at the time. I, for once, totally agree with Sabuti though. The discrepancy does need looked at eventually.
 

iBluNT

Dalayan Elder
Idk if Tempr just got lucky but we pugged UC for him like 8? times. Was definitely closer to 10, but eventually got them. I think we saw 1 bow in the mix too.
 

sabuti

Dalayan Elder
Idk if Tempr just got lucky but we pugged UC for him like 8? times. Was definitely closer to 10, but eventually got them. I think we saw 1 bow in the mix too.
I have also seen several pair

Kinda got to scramble to keep h2h at 25+
This is an entirely different problem/thread that could be made. A fully geared monk with a 4.3 robe has +7 Hand to Hand, or +17 with spires BP. Farming the Peacegiver is a solid 80+hour TEAM effort RNG fest for an extra +5 H2H (Nerfed immediately upon acquiring from +15, only one in the game)
 

hikage

Dalayan Adventurer
Before this next part I just want to say that I think monks are a solid class, but seriously there is some weak itemization for monks t7-11.
Gloves as a primary monk weapon has been an itemization mess for a long time. I haven't done legit parses in a few years, but when I last played and raided-- Saturated Spirit Gloves / Red Leaf-Wraps performed on par or surpassed Claws of the Beast in EF/Abyss/Spires. Itemization is kind of all over the place for gloves.

Incidentally, on a conservative estimate, I've killed The Mistborn 35+ times since 2009 and have never seen Silence drop. Not saying it never drops, but that bottleneck for personal character dps is insanely frustrating.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
I feel like I've posted about this a million billion times as well as talking with slaariel about it in game. Good luck
BW gloves still have the same amount of elemental damage as UC gloves. Their procs are also VERY close in DPS. BW gloves will do 18560 base proc dmg over 1000 combat rounds, per hand, while UC gloves clock in at 18.000 per hand, per 1k combat rounds. BW glove proc has the advantage of a -resist adjust, but the difference is still very small considering most mobs also have low disease resist. My suggestion would be to buff BW glove proc rate. the difference between UC glove proc and silence is 10,500 base dmg of proc, and those mobs are relatively close to each other in difficulty, while the gap between UC and BW is very large. To keep this difference between proc matching based on previous progression, this would put BW gloves at 4.5% proc rate to be close to a 10k base proc difference.
if the scaling were truly linear starting from silence and going up to BW gloves and using UC gloves and silence as our reference, BW gloves would have like 9 fire damage and 6.4% proc rate. obviously buffing BW gloves to that point is a bit extreme but it is silly how small of an upgrade they are. Can you imagine how silly it would be if Sai of Sapping and rogue 4.3 weapon had the same ratio? The poor glove choices also don't account for the fact that most monk weapons are horrible in a majority of situations. Unless you are tanking a VERY hard hitting monster or trying to avoid death by riposte/damage shield then an overwhelming majority of monk weapons are not worth using. The 2.5 client made this issue even worse with the inflated health pools. This post doesn't even consider beastlords who are also left hurt by monk itemization/changes/gloves. Their BiS offhand weapon comes from a mob in Abyss. That doesn't count the hilarity that is the skycalling staff from dread ( which I think might be best until you get spear) Skycaller staff is also amazing for bards without 4.3 because they get boosts to proc rate and have horrible auto attack damage but that item is not really related to this thread.
 

hikage

Dalayan Adventurer
I'll never get Silence, Grasp, or UC Handwraps, but Eyate helped me get a skycaller staff last year. That's a fun xp weapon for the offhand. It's almost a nice analogue (as a 1h) compared to the pre-nerf staff of shifting shadows. SoSS is exceptionally terrible now, but there's always the pride knowing I got the server first with that quest, right? Right? :[

Anyway -- if nothing else, I think Matron's Grasp should at least go back to the original +h2h mod.
 
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