What should be done for L65 Mage?

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Gylvain

Dalayan Beginner
I have serious concerns about the accuracy of that last parse. For starters I'd want to know crit rate (should be around 5% if they were only using rains, separate the pets, otherwise it will take those into account). I'd also want to know whether monster summonings and/or host of the elements was used (many raid encounters they are next to useless due to ae's and whirlwinds fucking their face right off). I'd also like to know why and how your warrior was doing competitive dps with the mages and rogues. I'd also like to know why there are 4-500 less hits on the rogue than on the warrior. I'd also like to know why your wizard was only engaged for 57 seconds (I'm assuming death).

Since that fight was around 9+ months ago, I can't recall the specifics, but the warrior's DPS (Nilaat) was definitely padded by inclusion of his damage shield. Monk/Rogue DPS was affected by breaking off to kill adds (usually Cilulizi or in some cases myself). Overall, probably not a great fight to compare DPS when mages are focused on boss but other DPS not as much.
 

Volkier

Dalayan Beginner
As mentioned earlier, I understand that I'm not a high level player on SOD and most of my experience comes from live, but following this discussion, would it not make sense to simply 'beef up' the pet so that they are kept alive by group heals - just like all the other melees are? Looking at the spells and concepts, it seems that it is intended for the BST to benefit their own pet more in terms of pet buffs, heals, etc. meaning that beefing up the mages' pet heals would only mean that you would need to do the same to the beastlord to keep the concept, and in turn boost every other class out there? Mage pets (unless something drastically changed) already hold aggro far worse than any player or the above mentioned beastlord pet, so it's not like making them a formidable 'tank' would mean that the pet can tank in a group, with the group still dishing out enough dps. The mage would still have to watch their aggro soloing, and it would be equivalent to bigger heals overall without upsetting the 'balance'?

Again, my concept of that is solely based on reading through this discussion, and the spell-lists on wiki, so I may be completely off course - but it's something that seems to make sense to me based on that information (so think of me as an unbiased neutral source ::p)
 

Bridger

Dalayan Beginner
So let me summarise where I think we have got to in this discussion.
We seem to be saying
(a) If the mage can stay alive
(b) the mage has sufficient mana
(c) the pet can stay alive
(d) Not too much time is spent keeping the pet alive
(e) the mob is not magic immune/resistant
(f) the mob is not fire immune/resistant
(g) the mage can rain

Then he will do about the same damage as a rogue.

But wait - the rogues were spending some of their time on add management. So even then it is probably not true.

So do I believe that making the pet slightly less likely to die while rogues are getting their own tomes to boost their performance is going to resolve this issue?

Well what do you think?
And what do you think that I think?
 

Kirin Folken

Dalayan Elder
<-------- Ibuki here

I can add soime light about this parse. First how did Nilaat hit such High DPS? Damage shield is added into Nilaats DPS on that parse.

Monster summonings were used, Cyclops + Orc, I think we even tossed Gob in for shits and giggles. Host was used, and Frenzy Burnout.

So that was really pushing things to the max as far as Mage DPS goes.

Mages do have issues 1-65, I feel these tomes, while they will help greatly once completed. Are a far cry from the type of help mages wanted. Your basicly saying to get mages on par with others we need to dump a good 400+ more AAs + Aquireing Tome drops to do it.

Is that really a good idea for balanceing?? Thats fine for max tomed tier 9+ mages who can just go out and grind a few more AAs for tomes (since xp was useless anyways). But what about lower Tier toons? (not to mention.. did necros really need more help?? They already single handly bring more DPS+ Utility to a group then just about any other class.)

I personaly would love to see a few changes done to mages. These wouldn't even drasticly touch mages currently DPS. Its more about smoothing the class out and increaseing its playability throw out the levels.

Unnearfing Pet heal would help, particulary at the lower levels (1-65) and low to high Tiers also gain some utility here to pad pets throw bad AoE fights.

Use of Elemental Pet Buffs, on a generic Pet vs static pet summon.
(Made posts about this suggestion twice now)
*Baring that, give mages a low level Root, and turn earthpet into Snare. A Mage might try useing it for a change vs thier other 3 pets.
** Leveling up my mage the earthpet was a death sentence I found. He didn't tank better then the other pets, didn't out DPS the other pets, and had near 0 Utility vs Higher DPS, Stuns and Slows of other pets. At least Snare would give him a practical use for a mage (considering how easy it is for nukes/rains to break roots)

Increase the resistances on Monster Summoning Pets. They die horrible horrible deaths to anything that AoEs (or WW/PS but thats a different story). Thier basicly useless on any fight with a AoE. Limiting a Mages DPS/Utility even more.

Pet summons (remove many of the obsolete summons mages have currently and add some pet only summons. Especialy summons that make it quicker to get a pet back into the game. Like a summon that summons 2 weapons, and a haste bauble for the pet in 1 cast).

Remove recast timer on summon weapons... really were mages flooding the server with Blades of power??

Ether upgrade and add to the Mages Malestrom DoT line. Or remove it entirely
*Might I suggest if you remove it, to replace the DoT line, with a Pet only HoT line.
(Or hell DO Both.. Upgrade the dot line and add a hot line )

Add ether some Negative Resist mods on a few spells, or give mages a odd cold spell or 2 to help offset high MR/FR on mobs. These 2 Resist types seem to go hand in hand.
*Thought... Re Tweek the Bane Line of spells. SO instead of being only useful vs elementals Who are FEW and far between anywere really. The spell line instead has Good Resistant Mobs on it to land better, but has a negative. Eats the pets Hps to cast.
Example.. a 1k nuke maybe draining 250 hps from the pet on top of the mana cost. Trade off is a -75 MR on the spell. Or heck... Going even further... Type it to the type of pet thats out. Earth= Disease type, AIr=Posion etc Bane line doesn't have great recasts times, and it would be killing your pet to use these spells. *Relic pet might cause problems here, but combine with Pet buff line vs static would work fine and add a intersting element to mages pets*

Much like the mages Elemental Shield line... prehaps add a Pet only (only targetable to mage pet) Resistance buff at mid levels, maybe tag some AC on it as well. (45 th level area to start and conitune to 65th level). Allowing mages to increase the pets Resistances earlyer on in the lower Tiers and levels would help even out the progression so its not only upper tier tome toons that get the resistance loving for thier pets.

Unlike Necros who can not only heal themselves, but heal their pet and FD, Mages are shit out of luck if the pet drops. Leveling 1-65 (at least until 61 when we get our 1 and only root). If a mage gets to much aggro over pet, or the pet dies. Its basicly a auto death to the mage.
Likewise Bst again have pet heals and can heal themselves.

If mages have to straight up Nuke (and at lower levels they single nuke vs Rains do to efficency. Simply put lower end mages pets dont surive long enough in many cases to let your rain do its job. Your better off out right nukeing a mob dead. Its easyer on the mana pool and less risk of the pet being eaten alive) Drawing aggro is real easy doing this however.



Thier ... my 5 minute 2 cp post. Enjoy
 
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Bridger

Dalayan Beginner
If mages were ever consistently at rogue DPS, they'd be nerfed (see rangers).

Why?

I will ask the question I have asked twice before.
Why if Mage is doing the same DPS as a rogue would you EVER chose the mage?
Why is this balance?
 

Thade

DINOSAUR THADE
Why?

I will ask the question I have asked twice before.
Why if Mage is doing the same DPS as a rogue would you EVER chose the mage?
Why is this balance?

UTILITY

Rogue has 0.

You have:
Modrods
Gruplok Attuning Rods
Spectral Silks

probably more I am forgetting.
 

Bridger

Dalayan Beginner
Or we could not talk about high end encounters

I am sure my utility for dispensing modrods was greatly appreciated.

I now feel I can FULLY appreciate why ALL the top end mages have quit.
 
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Nwaij

Dalayan Pious Diety
Or we could not talk about high end encounters
 
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Dimmi

Dalayan Elder
Or we could not talk about high end encounters

content isn't really the issue at all, the content for mages is there....they just need a lil love guy. just a lil love
 
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BranFlakes

Dalayan Adventurer
TBh, most times i raided with my mage (admitted that it wasnt far.. that was back when Rev was hitting Dblash): I felt the love. All I am asking for is a reach around while I feel it.
:haw:

oh yeah: to all raiding mages who wonder why its a good thing you can only have 3 of any class on target... Because some poor mage would feel his HoE was just totally ineffective on that 4th person casting. You can thank myself, Mycroft, Jayella and god's I can't remember who all else for that nerf. Oh man that was so funny tho...
 
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Xardon

Dalayan Beginner
Throwing this out there ... but what if Mages were no longer dependent on their spells and pure DPS and more about their environment giving them the flexibility to adapt to situations.

Examples:

1. Monster summoning pets take on the models and traits of similar mobs in the zones, rather than just your standard Goblin, Orc, Cyclops, etc.

2. Other types of summoning pets which could be situational, like the mage drops down a water elemental and any character within a small radius of that area could be healed by that water elemental.
Or
Drop a static earth elemental and any mobs that try to come within its radius it will attempt to root.

These could give the mage not only variety but a way to be stategic on the battle field depending on the situation.
 

BranFlakes

Dalayan Adventurer
...becoming the new Bard...

sorry, just had to throw that out. :haw:

TBH, that sounds like alot of work on the coding end to remake an entire class. I like the concept, but I don't see how it will be accomplished w/o many, many hours of coding/testing/recoding.

I still think if you are going to delve into the code, the best place to work on is the actual pet coding for physical combat/ spell resists. The basis for mage is strong, it's just when it comes to the pet's defensive that it falls short. DPS is good. Agro is decent. Just need to fix defensive.

Oh, and I'd still like the ability to focus a % of mage spell agro on pet. While I'm on my wish-list. :p
 

Thade

DINOSAUR THADE
Or we could not talk about high end encounters

Edit: Hey, hey I wasn't he one being a dumbass okay.
 
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vistachiri

Dalayan Master
Throwing this out there ... but what if Mages were no longer dependent on their spells and pure DPS and more about their environment giving them the flexibility to adapt to situations.
This. This. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

Examples:

1. Monster summoning pets take on the models and traits of similar mobs in the zones, rather than just your standard Goblin, Orc, Cyclops, etc.
I like this, and I remember mentioning something like this in an im conversation with tyrone like, a long ass time ago. Not sure I ever posted about it, because I'm pretty sure we came to the conclusion it would be difficult to impossible to do. I mean, it would be cool as fuck, but would it be possible?

2. Other types of summoning pets which could be situational, like the mage drops down a water elemental and any character within a small radius of that area could be healed by that water elemental.
Or
Drop a static earth elemental and any mobs that try to come within its radius it will attempt to root.

I like these as well. A whole lot in fact. The only thing I wouldn't want to see would be removing the regular monster summonings, which are pretty boss, even though you have to keep them permabarred. Something I'd also like to point out is these particular spells should not be 5min recasts. This way we could actually hotswap, because we are really really going to be hurting on room. Correspondingly they should have a higher mana cost than monster summoning regularly does (even though if I'm not mistaken the runic is a little heavy on cost), as they are low I think partially because of the recast. There should be probably somewhere around the neighborhood of rain cost, not following the trend for the excessive cost trend of ikisith spells.

These could give the mage not only variety but a way to be stategic on the battle field depending on the situation.

Which is really what should be going on. It would be really really easy to point out the classes which aren't utility, that have far more utility than we do, and do a better job of their main focus.

We also need a way for the monster summons, especially if we go with the routes above, to not be killed ridiculously easily and quickly on most raid encounters, which they are (Hi ae's, whirlwinds, huge ds's and ESPECIALLY Phantom strikes making me and other casters to a lesser extent fucking terrible (P.S. Also see our low defense skill)). Because if they do end up that way, they will be pretty much useless. I don't see anything curing itself of festering curse after all (I *THINK* I recall one mob somewhere doing that. Might be a few more, but it's not common at all).

(p.s. still adding to this while the iron is hot so to speak)

Options exist for utility in terms of the elemental forms (being made group for example) as well, and elemental barrier (with a bit of an extended duration). It would be nice for our dd line to become useful as well. Our banes could use a bit of love as well, since I don't recall ever talking to anyone, or seeing anyone that has bothered to use them (them being a dd really hampers us tbh).

One could easily see rationale for an upgrade to the malo line as well. We share it with shamans, but our unresistable is inferior to theirs, and our regular one is the same. Malo is always something I took care of tbh, because as I was never, ever using dd's (sometimes, and I do stress sometimes, you can toss one in the middle, with the longer casting nukes you are however not only losing effiency, but you're running into the front end of your next rain, and getting more aggro to boot. You can toss scars of sigil in (cast time is awesome), but it's usually not worth it), I ran a much lower risk of getting my teeth kicked in (no slowaggro to watch), with less consequence to the raid even if I did get mollywhomped.
 
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Xardon

Dalayan Beginner
I like this, and I remember mentioning something like this in an im conversation with tyrone like, a long ass time ago. Not sure I ever posted about it, because I'm pretty sure we came to the conclusion it would be difficult to impossible to do. I mean, it would be cool as fuck, but would it be possible?

Yes I already have an idea in mind to make it viable. Just need to verify some stuff with Cyzaine first to see if we want to move in this type of direction.

I like these as well. A whole lot in fact. The only thing I wouldn't want to see would be removing the regular monster summonings, which are pretty boss, even though you have to keep them permabarred. Something I'd also like to point out is these particular spells should not be 5min recasts. This way we could actually hotswap, because we are really really going to be hurting on room. Correspondingly they should have a higher mana cost than monster summoning regularly does (even though if I'm not mistaken the runic is a little heavy on cost), as they are low I think partially because of the recast. There should be probably somewhere around the neighborhood of rain cost, not following the trend for the excessive cost trend of ikisith spells.

I had an idea for these types of summons to be based on the mages Stamina, the more of these you use, it drains stamina, there-fore removing the whole AE damage thing from the equation. Not to mention we never use Stamina for int casters, why not make stamina used for mages as a way for them to sustain their summons. If this is possible it could make for the mages to decide how many they want to use based on their stamina. You could just use 1 or 2 to try to make them last, or use 3-4 for some quick bursts.
 

Volkier

Dalayan Beginner
I had an idea for these types of summons to be based on the mages Stamina, the more of these you use, it drains stamina, there-fore removing the whole AE damage thing from the equation. Not to mention we never use Stamina for int casters, why not make stamina used for mages as a way for them to sustain their summons. If this is possible it could make for the mages to decide how many they want to use based on their stamina. You could just use 1 or 2 to try to make them last, or use 3-4 for some quick bursts.

I won't be able to sleep at night until you stop considering this ::p Casters already have to worry about their mana levels, sacrificing hp / defense (in comparison to others) for it, trying forever to get the best possible mana efficient way to maximise themselves, without throwing stamina in the equation. It's all fine and dandy for top raiding mages whose stats are ALL maxed, but it's going to royally suck for everyone else. Not to mention, out of all the casters, it would be only mages who are affected, who rely on their pets to survive, and whose survivability is being questioned in this discussion. It would be like telling a warrior that his threat would now depend on the level of his mana.

EDIT: On second thought, I may have read that post wrongly. Are you saying mages would use stamina to technically 'heal' their pets?
 

vistachiri

Dalayan Master
Yes I already have an idea in mind to make it viable. Just need to verify some stuff with Cyzaine first to see if we want to move in this type of direction.

I had an idea for these types of summons to be based on the mages Stamina, the more of these you use, it drains stamina, there-fore removing the whole AE damage thing from the equation. Not to mention we never use Stamina for int casters, why not make stamina used for mages as a way for them to sustain their summons. If this is possible it could make for the mages to decide how many they want to use based on their stamina. You could just use 1 or 2 to try to make them last, or use 3-4 for some quick bursts.

Some possible pitfalls and questions

Wouldn't they still be hit if they were actual objects regardless of what they were based on? Or do you mean they'd be made invuln but limited?

We don't but stamina is based on the stamina stat correct? Wouldn't a caster then generally have pitiful amounts of it? Last I checked I was one of the highest stamina casters, and I still don't even hit hs cap buffed. There is still a huge gap between the various stats on caster gear, and on the gear of any other archetype. Some, for example dex, aren't even useful (because we can't hit anything anyways), others like agility, and stamina are, and we get shorted on those, especially early on.

It's also going to regen alot slower, and afaik there was no way to speed that up. Can slow down the drain of course, but theres not really much of anything on caster gear to do so, would that then require us to have yet another focus to be effective (That is quite enough of those already). One could toss something on ch or cs to slow it down, but that would then make stamina drain less an issue for melee dps and tank classes as well. Can reduce the amount of the drain I suppose.

Exhausting ones should also probably be avoided, would also need a way to I guess turn summons off? Maybe a command? Don't really know much about how that would work.

I'd also hope it would only be new things, and not the normal monster summons shifting to stamina, Those as they are seem fine, though I haven't parsed runic.
 
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