What should be done for L65 Mage?

[Cyzaine]

We are being assured that the new tomes will "fix" the mage pet and put mage back on a level playing field. However this ignores the fact that all other classes are also getting their tomes. I will be amazed if when this all plays out, mages are not even further behind than they are now.

Get me some numbers to back up this position and something will happen. Until then it's speculation that goes against my own findings.

A good fix for magician would be to stop trying to make them into a wizard with a pet and let them be a pet based class again.

I haven't played my mage on a serious basis since the 'heal pet less and nuke more' position was forced upon those of us who didn't want to make a wizard when we initially made a mage.

How is increasing pet survivability making them a wizard with a pet exactly?

After reading all this (and talking to some high end mages), my approach would be to make mage petheal instant recast, maybe slap another 1k of HP healed on it, and call it a day.

Except I'm working on the assumption that 1-65 and low tier, there isn't any real issue with the magician. If you wanna refute that assumption, be my guest. I'm usually open to listening.

 

[BranFlakes]

If you really want to help us increase pet survivability: remove the recast timer on the heal (like it was origionally) and perhaps boost the amount healed. Even going so far as to maybe add a poison cure along with the disease cure on the pet heal.

If you want us to nuke more often: either add in a pet buff spell that translates a % of our agro to our pets or add a -agro mod to our single target line of spells. (I'd much prefer the % agro one, tbh.) Anyone who plays a mage can tell you the agro from single target nukes sucks, but you cannot always use rains. Sometimes from the mezing of mobs, but also from plain distance from the mobs while being fought. Also, rains are not fun when someone kills the mob off right when the first tick of the rain hits. That bug needs to be fixed, or else make us not so reliant upon rains anymore.

I don't fight for top dps when i play the mage. I play for survivability. And with nuke agro that tends to be 'I guess I wil heal the pet again instead of casting the nuke, since I'm pretty much kiting the mob around if i do one more point of DD.'

Yes, alot of things have been added over the years to help mages and their pets. But to be quite honest, not much of it was actually needed if the heal nerf had not been implemented in the first place.

I don't mean to sound abrasive when I type this, but the mage has always been my favorite class to play on EQ. Until I came to SoD and the changes started. Sure 1 to 65 is fun, but 65+ is a pita. It gets to the point where trying to manage the character is more work than play. That's not a good feeling when you are trying to play a game for fun. It's also why I finally broke down and made a bard (ok, maybe more than 1): sure they are overpowered, but they can do what they were origonally intended to do.

 

[Cyzaine]

So you'd rather be a heal bot to your pet, than have the pet live on it's own merits? The idea here is that if the pet is taking less damage, it won't NEED as many heals, so the recast timer and amt healed become moot. Your solution would change the dynamic starting at level 64.

 

[Nuli]

I think a decent pet HOT would help pet survivability between big heals and let us do our damage.

 

[BranFlakes]

The new spells sound great, just ask all the folks pre-tier 6 how much they love them. Not everything that is broken is Iksith raid level range. All I ask for is the chance to actually heal my pet when it does happen to gain agro, so the healer doesn't have to choose between the tank and the pet. We all know what choice that will be.

Pet taking less damage is good. But I also addressed our casting agro in the post.

 

[Cyzaine]

And if you give me some numbers to verify your claims, something may even get done.

Lets put it this way, EVERYONE has their own ideas what class balance is, and the 1 or 2 things that'll fix everything. And everyone is more than happy to share it with me at all times. If you can't show me you actually have a point, I filter it away with the rest of the spam.

DO mages have issues from tier 1 - 8? Maybe. I didn't notice them having any when I did those tiers (my brother was a magician while we both played). I do know it got harder to keep the pet alive, and that when the pet died, his DPS got worse.

Heals would increase the solo experience for the mage, which it sounds like you want badly. To that I'd say box a healer, and you won't have that issue, just like you have to with a melee class. These things help the actual survivability of your pet, so said healer can keep them up better, which overall makes you more powerful where you are weak.

Again if you have some sort of proof or numbers that show that you are weak elsewhere, share them. I am seriously all ears here.

Also what spells are you talking about???

 

[Nwaij]

So you'd rather be a heal bot to your pet, than have the pet live on it's own merits?

No. Not at all. But I see nothing wrong with giving a mage the option to choose that path.

The idea here is that if the pet is taking less damage, it won't NEED as many heals, so the recast timer and amt healed become moot. Your solution would change the dynamic starting at level 64.

This indeed would be far far more preferable. But there are these situations where, you know, the pet takes giant ammounts of damage no matter what. And knowing how healers are, pets are the least priority targets for heals.

tl;dr

More survivability would indeed be awesome, but I don't see that alone doing the trick.

 

[BranFlakes]

so you want me to take parses on a class I havent played in years on raid targets that I dont currently fight?

I'd love to log in and parse a few dozen raid mob fights with the mage, but unfortunately the only way I'd be able to do that is on the pickup raids that usually have so many ringers as to make it a pointless parse. There is a big difference in pet survivability on those two setups.

Oh and as for boxing a healer with the mage: it's easier to just adv band the mage than to hunt with him.

You asked what new spells. OK, new is a bad word. for ME as a mage they would be new. I'm speaking of epic pet + epic nukes, Iksith spells, plus anything else that has come out/changed since i stopped playing the mage. While most of the folks who have input about mage dps are relic+ , not everyone is using that setup. What I am asking for is something that will help all ranges of gear/tier players.

You said you would probably just ignore the information if it didn't have parses. But tbh, I feel the information has been out there for years for anyone who has actually played a mage. It can't get more ignored than that, already. If a dev wants to find out what the issue it with mages and doesn't trust the players input: perhaps they should make a mage up, non-twinked, and start raiding from T1 up.

99% of your current input is from the top end of gear. What I am saying is it is more widespread that just that range. I may be a member of way too many guilds, but my mage is only in one guild. and BHM isn't really raiding now days...

You asked for information. I give you what I know and what I can remember. That's the best I can do for ya, sorry.

 

[Cyzaine]

Ok Bran, let me give you what I did, and what I'm asking for.

I already went and ran numbers on the magician at a few notable check points. These are under ideal, but realistic conditions, such as on single mobs or mobs that don't require CC, and mobs that don't AE crazy. [Mages are competitive with other classes from 1-65. Mages are competitive at low tiers.]

I then tried to figure out where and why they falter. This would be mobs where you need CC or controlled DPS, or mobs that AE like crazy. This occurs, in general, on higher tier fights. [Mages falter when their pets die. Pets die due to crazy AE's.]

I then thought up a solution to this problem [pet tomes, since tomes require alot of time investment IE: Probably higher tier]. But I did not release info on this.

I THEN call for the players to confirm/refute my findings. That's what I'm asking for right now. To refute my findings. Because I've already done leg work in the lab, and I simply will not level up 14 different classes from level 1 to tier 12 under realistic settings. I don't have that kind of time and I don't have the interest.

Not to be rude here, but if you haven't played the class in a year+, maybe your assumptions on how it works aren't something I should be trying to balance around. As for 'catering to the high end crowd', I don't have any proof that the problem exists outside of the cutting edge. None of my findings support it, and no one is stepping forward with anything to show it.

 

[Notpit]

Do you have any actual parses to back this up? I've personally never seen a mage top the DPS list in parses on raids I've been in, and I don't really see how they could unless the mage had a significant gear/tome/charm advantage.

Sorry for delayed response, I went out of town with the family. Here is one of the parses that I was referring to.

Note: In this fight the two mages were the top two DPS. Kilzor and Gedge were the rogues. That was the only fight that raid that I have a parse where the mages did so well. Again, I said "often" they were the top DPS, not that they are normally the top DPS. Others have noted that mage rains give them an advantage when we have multiples.

 

[Cyzaine]

This indeed would be far far more preferable. But there are these situations where, you know, the pet takes giant ammounts of damage no matter what. And knowing how healers are, pets are the least priority targets for heals.

If pets were closer to players in resists and AC, then they could just rely on group heals. It's rare for JUST the pets to takes damage without everyone else. The problem is just that they take damage so much more often... it's like dragging a tier 3 toon to LT fire boss. Your guild will make it through no problem, but that specific lowbie toon won't, he just doesn't have the gear. If his survival stats were boosted, he'd be able to contribute, however little, without forcing extra heals to be cast.

No. Not at all. But I see nothing wrong with giving a mage the option to choose that path.

Fair enough. I got a bit of inspiration for something that could be fun that I'll have to run by people.

A decent duration HoT on the same refresh timer as their other heals, that also gives an overhaste or proc buff for it's duration. Fairly mana inefficent, to be used during points when raining and nuking just isn't an option, essentially funneling mana into the pet to boost it's personal DPS.


Thanks for the numbers notpit. Mages certainly can pad the meter when they rain on adds that don't need to be CC'ed. But I don't find their DPS on a single target without adds to be that off kilter either, as long as the pet is contributing too.

 

[BranFlakes]

If pets were closer to players in resists and AC, then they could just rely on group heals. It's rare for JUST the pets to takes damage without everyone else. The problem is just that they take damage so much more often... it's like dragging a tier 3 toon to LT fire boss. Your guild will make it through no problem, but that specific lowbie toon won't, he just doesn't have the gear. If his survival stats were boosted, he'd be able to contribute, however little, without forcing extra heals to be cast.

Sorry if I sounded a bit edgy about the issues, but mage has always been a sore spot for me since the end of my Branlenio days.

Perhaps what is needed is more of a rework of pet coding than to add new things into the mix? TBH, I don't want to be a cleric for my pet tank. But when i did play the mage, it was either do that or spend all the mana to recreate, rebuff (sans the non-mage casted ones I just lost) and reengage.

I know the hard part is balancing it enough so that they react well enough on raids w/o becoming the new Bard of soloing. But honestly; if there is an open wound on your leg gushing blood, I'd rather you find a way to stop it from bleeding than to knit some pants that match the color of the blood better.

 

[Bridger]

Am I misunderstanding the above parse?
Are the rogues really doing twice the dps of the mage?

 

[Cyzaine]

I think you are...

Ibuki and Maktoum are mages, and they topped the damage in that fight. Granted given the nature of that fight, it's VERY rain friendly, so that helped alot, and is not exactly a 'usual' result.

 

[Otcho]

Were all of your melee dps peeling off to kill the adds or what, because that dps list is pathetic for your ranger/monk/rogue.

 

[Notpit]

I know that Cilulizi did peel off that fight (allowing me to out-DPS him that fight woohoo). And he is usually one of our top DPS. I don't remember about the others. Niha posted that on November 10 and my memory pretty much sucks.

One of the others may remember more details.

 

[Bridger]

Thx Cyz for straightening me out there.

I would guess that we cannot advance this much further without a clearer idea what we mean by "balance". At the moment we seem to be discussing how to reach our "objective" without a clear understanding (at least on my part) what exactly this "objective" is.

From my perspective balance is achieved if on average characters of the same overall type and level are equally desirable as members of a group or raid. So for example a Tier 8 Mage/Wizard/Necro/Rogue/Monk would be equally welcome.

This requires us to determine (a) the dps that each can do (under varying conditions) and also (b) what damage relationship would make them equally desirable.

My opinion is that with the inherent advantages that melee have equal desirability can only be achieved if casters have a significant dps advantage over melee. I repeat the question I posed above. If a mage can only hope to do equal damage to a rogue why take a mage?

 

[Otcho]

Mages provide:

1) Mana to the raid
2) Fire resist to the raid
3) A serious FR buff or whatever to the caster/xyz group
4) Mad fucking pet summons
5) Peridots, the mechanic that exclusively revolves around mages as much as I hate peridots you need a fucking mage to make them happen.
6) loot bonus

Rogue provides
1) 300 more dps


I didn't read the majority of this thread but I was always under the idea that the only thing wrong with them was the fact that their pet died past a certain tier.

 

[Moraelintz]

I have read the thread, and am going to give my perspective. I am a 65 mained Mage, Shimone, and would put me in the non-relic t2-4 range. I solo/group/raid/duo, I find myself duoing a heal bot when I duo because Mage heals are just not sufficent for hardly any exp content. My pet usually buffs to around 5k hps and with the delay on the heal and the delay on the aa heal I find it necessary to box a healer.

In group settings: kasora, dn dragons, tmaps, citadel, I find that I spend a good amount of time/mana keeping pet alive when the healer is only healing the tank. I think the pet is a somewhat acceptable off tank on easier content when have a group or pet friendly healer combined with Mage heals. I also think for normal exp groups where we pull multiples we are awesome dps and acceptable dps in groups when I can rain single targets.

In raids with almost any ae whether it be whirlwind, or Pbae nuke the pet almost always dies despite my attempts to heal. I think dps wise on raids we are quite capable of pushing high numbers. Ithink otcho makes very good valid points.

As far as changes are concerned I would have liked another fire rain pre relic, and the pet hot sounds cool, or even a group pet heal would be cool since in raids we are usually in the same group. Buffing up the pet is another way to go, but that runs the risk of becoming OP. I would like having petsresists upped especially forbigher tiers where I can see that being a problem

just my 2cp

 

[vistachiri]

I have serious concerns about the accuracy of that last parse. For starters I'd want to know crit rate (should be around 5% if they were only using rains, separate the pets, otherwise it will take those into account). I'd also want to know whether monster summonings and/or host of the elements was used (many raid encounters they are next to useless due to ae's and whirlwinds fucking their face right off). I'd also like to know why and how your warrior was doing competitive dps with the mages and rogues. I'd also like to know why there are 4-500 less hits on the rogue than on the warrior. I'd also like to know why your wizard was only engaged for 57 seconds (I'm assuming death).

Mages provide:

1) Mana to the raid
2) Fire resist to the raid
3) A serious FR buff or whatever to the caster/xyz group
4) Mad fucking pet summons
5) Peridots, the mechanic that exclusively revolves around mages as much as I hate peridots you need a fucking mage to make them happen.
6) loot bonus

Rogue provides
1) 300 more dps

Modrods and loot bonus are the only things they need to actually be there for that are of value. Elemental barrier is way too short (in addition to being situational) to be more than a blip on the radar. Other than that mages are basically vending machine buffbots, and the buff is situational, replaced easily by a competing buff when fire resists are not needed.

Also, those are some of the reasons they are exceedingly poor for 6man groups, including their dependence on others to keep their pet alive. That and only having two types of worthwhile damage to choose from (fire and magic)( the lure, is a dd, pitiful, and extremely expensive. As well as being completely unnecessary) pretty much kills your dps in places like emberflow and tot, leaving you to rely on relic rain and your level 60. With magic immune or extremely resistant areas you fare even worse, getting to rely on archaic and sirroco, which you may remember from level 55.

As far as nonraid content, if one is going to have to drag a healer around everywhere as a mage (which one pretty much does). You may as well just play a class that is going to do comparable dps, and allows you to do far more difficult things.

As for the earlier levels, I remember quite a bit, but I really don't feel like rehashing things any more than I already have. Like that 20 level stretch where you're stuck with a 100 hp petheal.

Tldr; A healthy proportion of mages move on to classes without the glaring downsides of blowing over in a strong breeze, blasting yourself in the face a bunch, needing to loaf on your ass every few minutes in a group, and being so incompetent with pet care it's a wonder the elemental spca doesn't show up every 30 minutes with a massive fine. I went with two healers the majority of the time before I quit (apart from raiding), was much happier with them.

Sidenote: I don't think a hot is the way to go. A direct way to boost the pets damage is all well and good, but adding a hot will just end up making it cost more, be worse, and lose out to better spells on the bar. We especially don't need more healing with a recast.