Tradeskill Armor

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with raiding or with the people who do it, but comparing all the upper tradeskilled gear in the game to what you'd have if you raided isn't fair to players who don't raid.

Have you never bought a piece of gear? If you did I imagine it was out of your current tier then. That's why most people buy gear. So they can improve their character so they can maybe move up in the content.

The reason tradeskilled armor is so good is because people couldn't sell enough before. Not many people wanted it. It couldn't compete with the stuff that all the raider characters were farming from higher level zones.

As for progression...there is progression, and there are things like no drop tags to hinder those items from falling into unintended hands.

As for farming, it's nowhere near as easy as you say to farm unless you're 65, with a bunch of AA's, and good gear. Can you make decent money even without those three things? Sure...if you're the right class. But farming 4k to buy a deepmetal BP is going to take a LOT of time. I honestly see a lot of tanks content with a Warlord's BP (or less) just because it's a lot easier to obtain than a DM BP.

I have a 58 paladin wearing deepmetal legs (couldn't afford any more pieces), chamberlain arms, turtle boots, and has his Thurgadin rewards . He currently is fighting in West Freeport. The citizens he can solo pretty easy. The guards are a bit challenging, the arena fighters are impossible. I don't feel he's fighting above and beyond his tier. Gear helps, but it's not going to make him all the sudden jump to Red Sun Mines and start soloing there.

And since Griz replied before I hit post: Hopper Hide, Panther/Cougar, Wyrmhide/Wyvernhide don't sell more often because nobody can wear 85 bracers... The problem with those armors is tradeskillers crank out all the little pieces and hardly made any of the more desirable pieces like legs and tunics. Look on listsolds. It's like that with most armors (panther, cougar, hopper hide especially). The exceptions seem to be mithril, dalium, warpmetal, ghostmetal (to a lesser extent). I've /auc'd before looking for people to make sets and they don't. Not my fault TSers don't want to make it. I honestly think that Panther>Wyvern>Imphide is a pretty good progression (although the gap between Wyvernhide and Imphide seems much larger than Panther>Wvern).

About the only piece of TS gear I could see being a rec. level 65 would be Mantle of the Forest.
 
kukov said:
As for farming, it's nowhere near as easy as you say to farm unless you're 65, with a bunch of AA's, and good gear. Can you make decent money even without those three things? Sure...if you're the right class. But farming 4k to buy a deepmetal BP is going to take a LOT of time. I honestly see a lot of tanks content with a Warlord's BP (or less) just because it's a lot easier to obtain than a DM BP.
Click to expand...

I will definitely not deny that farming is indeed easier with more AA/tome/gear, but you can definitely do it without. One of my friends who I just met a few weeks ago quickly worked his way up and farmed money for deepmetal and other great items. He had about 80% his deepmetal done before he was even 65 and still only has 55 AA (not saying that is not many, but he has done well for himself in the time he has played gear wise). He has worked his ass off to get to this point and is NOT a twink, so it is definitely possible to farm money without super amazing gear and AA. I think he also only has about 15 days played total. It is all about doing things efficiently and know where to farm/exp.

And gear does make a big difference. Gearing up slowly showed me how much faster I can farm and exp. Upgrades are small in SoD, so every upgrade counts. Having the best gear you can obtain (raids or dropable) at all times, makes it easier to exp/raid/farm.
 
I don't know what to tell you if no one wants to make the other gear. I always did my best to find the stuff to make whatever anyone ordered from me.

I have a feeling no one's ordering it however, so no one's keeping it stocked.
 
minings boring, but i can't imagine trying to track down all them lil critters that love to keep their hides on...
it might be the payment isn't worth the time/effort to some people once they're skilled up past it.
 
Lilbrateeboie said:
minings boring, but i can't imagine trying to track down all them lil critters that love to keep their hides on...
it might be the payment isn't worth the time/effort to some people once they're skilled up past it.
Click to expand...

n2bad on most. Like wyvern hides? Go into wyvernfang. Aggro. Train Train Train. PBAOE multiple times. Loot loot loot. Repeat in a half hour. Mining dalium or mithril by comparison is a lol timesink. But it really isn't worth the effort with how it sells (ie generally not well) or on a cost/benefit ratio. I suppose it might be decent to make money off of if you were lower level, but notsomuch at 65.
 
kukov said:
Have you never bought a piece of gear? If you did I imagine it was out of your current tier then. That's why most people buy gear. So they can improve their character so they can maybe move up in the content.
Click to expand...
THAT. IS. FINE.

The issue is that the droppable gear that can be aceived by TSing is just too good. It can be better than drops from the lowest raid tiers without being unbalanced, but should not be a replacement for raiding those tiers altogether, and should not be better than roughly 1/3 of the raid content. (roughly 1/3 means that out of the ~9 tiers you're not likely to see many decent upgrades to most flavors of TS armor until tier 4+)

As for farming, it's nowhere near as easy as you say to farm unless you're 65, with a bunch of AA's, and good gear. Can you make decent money even without those three things? Sure...if you're the right class.
Click to expand...
There is more to the game than just gear and time investment, and frankly it's insulting to say that the only difference between players who farm 100pp an hour and I is my gear.

But farming 4k to buy a deepmetal BP is going to take a LOT of time. I honestly see a lot of tanks content with a Warlord's BP (or less) just because it's a lot easier to obtain than a DM BP.
Click to expand...

So what if the warlord BP was better than the DM one? would there be an issue there? If gear's stats are out of line with the difficulty in obtaining it it needs to be adjusted.

I have a 58 paladin wearing deepmetal legs (couldn't afford any more pieces), chamberlain arms, turtle boots, and has his Thurgadin rewards . He currently is fighting in West Freeport. The citizens he can solo pretty easy. The guards are a bit challenging, the arena fighters are impossible. I don't feel he's fighting above and beyond his tier. Gear helps, but it's not going to make him all the sudden jump to Red Sun Mines and start soloing there.
Click to expand...

This argument really only works one way, and it's not the way you used it. Gear can be assessed as too good when a player can do stuff they're not supposed to be able to do while wearing it, but just because you can't solo doesn't mean your gear isn't good. I'm not being intentionally insulting to you as a player, but it just doesn't follow: a character could be 65 and decked entirely in thaz gear and die in the exact same place as your 58 pal.
 
Spiritplx said:
I will definitely not deny that farming is indeed easier with more AA/tome/gear, but you can definitely do it without. One of my friends who I just met a few weeks ago quickly worked his way up and farmed money for deepmetal and other great items. He had about 80% his deepmetal done before he was even 65 and still only has 55 AA (not saying that is not many, but he has done well for himself in the time he has played gear wise). He has worked his ass off to get to this point and is NOT a twink, so it is definitely possible to farm money without super amazing gear and AA. I think he also only has about 15 days played total. It is all about doing things efficiently and know where to farm/exp.

And gear does make a big difference. Gearing up slowly showed me how much faster I can farm and exp. Upgrades are small in SoD, so every upgrade counts. Having the best gear you can obtain (raids or dropable) at all times, makes it easier to exp/raid/farm.
Click to expand...

For some reason you just can't grasp the term"casual" can you? I got two characters that I box with, level 64 now. I have only saved up for 3 pieces of DM armor, and that is using both characters and soloing 95% of the time. I even spent a week soloing hill giants too (couple+ hours each day), still only 3 pieces. So why is it your friend got almost a full set when I didnt? Maybe it's because I play casually and he plays hardcore. It sounds like your friend will probably end up raiding soon at his rate of play.

Casual = 2 hours a day. Now tell me this, how long will it take me to get a piece of DM at playing 2 hours a day? I can bet you that you can get a better piece of raid gear faster than I, a casual player, can get a piece of TS armor. And don't tell me it's much difficult, cuz it's not -- just like every other MMORPG - or for that matter every game in existance: once you know the strategy it's the same thing over and over again, just like farming plat.
 
Your argument holds very little weight. People that put little effort into this game (or anything for that matter) get little in return. I was using my friend as a reference because he has "casual" gear, or at least gear that he got from soloing alone, yet he was still able to farm for ALL of his gear by himself.

Saying you do not play often and then wanting great gear just does not make sense. You can get TS armor solo (even if it takes you years), but you will NEVER get raid gear (at least above tier 3 or 4) solo.

I may be able to get gear "faster", but that is because the amount of time I put in to get said gear far outweighs the time you put in. So, say I put in 100 hours, and you put in 10. You may get gear in that time while I do not even get an upgrade (yes, I have gone weeks without gear and that is ~100 hours). Saying I get gear "faster" is relative indeed.
 
Spiritplx said:
Your argument holds very little weight. People that put little effort into this game (or anything for that matter) get little in return. I was using my friend as a reference because he has "casual" gear, or at least gear that he got from soloing alone, yet he was still able to farm for ALL of his gear by himself.

Saying you do not play often and then wanting great gear just does not make sense. You can get TS armor solo (even if it takes you years), but you will NEVER get raid gear (at least above tier 3 or 4) solo.

I may be able to get gear "faster", but that is because the amount of time I put in to get said gear far outweighs the time you put in. So, say I put in 100 hours, and you put in 10. You may get gear in that time while I do not even get an upgrade (yes, I have gone weeks without gear and that is ~100 hours). Saying I get gear "faster" is relative indeed.
Click to expand...

You still don't understand it do you? A casual player works just as hard as a hardcore player does only it takes a casual player a month to save up for a piece of DM vs. a week for the hardcore type.

The same amount of energy goes into playing the game, only casual players have less time.

This isn't an arguement from people who raid and do not raid, its an arguement of time, and being a casual player, we lack the time, not the "effort" of playing the game.

Just to take this a knotch further though, why is it so unrealistic that someone who plays casually can't have great equipment too? Why does the casual player have to get penalized. TS armor is the best stuff we will probably ever be able to get, hell it could be worse.

There are games where if you are lucky you can have the best gear in the game and not even be max level. For example, in old school EQ you could run into an ultra rare mob and all of a sudden acquire one of the best items in the game. Example: Bilge in Cauldron drops a Pearl Kedge Totem - like 18 WIS on it, a level 35 could get it. In this scenario, you could raid 24/7 and not receive a better drop than the Pearl Kedge Totem...

Awwww that is so unfair to you right, since you raid 24/7 and we casual players don't, we miss out on good armor?

Why do you have to bitch about everything. Just leave it be.
 
Yup, it keeps coming back to me hating casual players, yet the casual players are the ones making a big deal out of it. No, you don't put in the same effort as raiders do, so no, you don't deserve gear that is as good as raiding gear. That does not mean you don't deserve good dropable gear, and you get that with TS armor. Even after the rebalancing it will still be great armor (most likely).

People who don't put in as much time into something don't deserve as much as the people who do. So quit trying to say you "deserve" great gear just because you cannot play very often. You deserve what you obtain depending on how much work you put into it.

Again, raiding is hard, farming is not. I do both, and raiding actually takes patience and strategy whereas farming just takes time.


Awwww that is so unfair to you right, since you raid 24/7 and we casual players don't, we miss out on good armor?


Awwww that is so unfair to you right, since you cannot raid and us hardcore players do, we get armor that is better than something that you can solo?
 
robopirateninja said:
There is more to the game than just gear and time investment, and frankly it's insulting to say that the only difference between players who farm 100pp an hour and I is my gear.
Click to expand...

YOU PLAY A WIZARD. This is NO personal skill. Hell, it's barely important to pay attention.

Root, snare, DD, relocate as needed.

or

bolt, relocate, snare, relocate, explosions and relocation.

or

walk, sit, point blank.


This represents a comprehensive, all-inclusive guide to wizards and soloing. You cannot chain stun... the mob is only stunned once, then is immune. It will still interrupt casting, but you cannot load enough stuns to make that feasible. Not to mention, many mobs are immune to stun to begin with.

To increase your farming, you can ONLY increase your kill rate, or find the magical mobs that drop crap loads of plat. Since the second option will be nerfed should any of the unwashed masses find, let's focus on the first option.

Shall we assume no one is Sunstriking in Red Sun or Icy Spearing in East Wastes? Then it all comes down to mana. You either cast less because your spells do more damage (Damage Increment, other foci); or each cast costs less mana (Ancient, Relic, Mana Conservation); or you recover mana more swiftly (Flowing Thought). In each case, it is your gear. As for sit/PB, that only works on deep greens that have no cash value. Even trying it with bottom Paw mobs will give you a toasted wizard. I guess it works ok with Paw's entrance mobs, if you have decent DI/cold foci for Glelid, but the mobs are not exactly a plat farm.

Nearly all the platinum dropping mobs are also green to a 65, so that means you can either have cash, or have xp. Oddly, most of the mobs light blue to a 65 drop nothing or 2 gold. Those that do not, come in larger than can be reasonably safe groups, or feature several casters that really mess up your multikites, if not prove deadly with fear/stun/mez/root/snare.

If you aim to get xp, then you get about one kill every 3 minutes, give or take a few seconds, at a rate of 2-4 pp per kill, plus the odd MC weapon, gem, or vendorfodder, for an average of 100pp an hour.

Now, puff up, tell me I am a dumbass noob without a clue what I am talking about, and absolutely refuse to point out where I may be wrong, because you "aren't playing the game for me".
 
moghedancarns said:
YOU PLAY A WIZARD.

walk, sit, point blank.


This represents a comprehensive, all-inclusive guide to wizards and soloing. You cannot chain stun... the mob is only stunned once, then is immune. It will still interrupt casting, but you cannot load enough stuns to make that feasible. Not to mention, many mobs are immune to stun to begin with.

Nearly all the platinum dropping mobs are also green to a 65, so that means you can either have cash, or have xp. Oddly, most of the mobs light blue to a 65 drop nothing or 2 gold. Those that do not, come in larger than can be reasonably safe groups, or feature several casters that really mess up your multikites, if not prove deadly with fear/stun/mez/root/snare.

If you aim to get xp, then you get about one kill every 3 minutes, give or take a few seconds, at a rate of 2-4 pp per kill, plus the odd MC weapon, gem, or vendorfodder, for an average of 100pp an hour.
Click to expand...

Here is a comprehensive guide to playing a shaman: click on target, cast spells. Here is a guide to playing a warrior: click on a target, click autoattack. Here is a comprehensive guide to playing a beastlord, click on a target, click in pet, click spells, click autoattack. Are you seeing a theme?

I don't always farm on my wizard, and I have 3 65s of my own, plus a whole cadre of friend's characters I have access to. Sure, I can outfarm you on my wizard, but I can and do outfarm my wizard on other characters.

My favorite places to farm money and/or items aren't filled with green con mobs, maybe you'd have better luck getting high end drops from high-end mobs?


If you want me to give you a big help, Ill let you in on a couple spots where you can solo cash much faster than 100pp an hour, without fighting green mobs:
Cyc Gorge
Sorceror's Labyrinth
Harthuk Caves in GD
Dragon Necropolis
And my favorite:
Also back when Fusion actively raided PoT we used to go 6man the trash before raids, good xp, good money and and i made clearing to the names later that night easier.

EDIT: Lol... you're always posting about shaman so I assumed you were one, but your sig links to a wizard's fomelo? are you seriously going to argue that farming on a wizard is so super easy when you already posted in this thread that you yourself can't earn more than 100pp per hour?
 
robopirateninja said:
Sorceror's Labyrinth
Click to expand...

I wouldn't really count this zone since some jerk is always in there, but yeah, good list.

Also, wizards are pretty bad at farming since constant melee dps is the way to go. Most of the places listed can be soloed or duoed with sub par gear and get more than 100pp an hour (I did it at least, but I may be better at mashing buttons than most people).
 
I ditched the shaman for being useless. We already had another shaman for raids that could take that spot, and I don't feel they as a class put out enough to be worthwhile in a group/solo. Thus, I leveled up a wizard. Technically, I aquired a buddy's level 35 wizard that has sat unused for 2 years from when we used to play together, but I now claim him as my own.





I was not argueing ease. You implied that it was gear independant. I was argueing that point alone.
 
The absolute wonderful warm fuzzy I get when I see this thread has turned into nothing more than a back and forth between raiders and casuals makes me sick.

There are multiple schools of thought. Accept it. Hell maybe learn from it and look at how self serving so many posts in this are.

I was going to write a good bit more, then I realized it is not worth the effort because it does not seem like a single person who matters is hearing the casual players.
 
I think this thread deserves a lock now.
No ones accepting the other's thoughts openly anymore (If at all).
Armors getting BALANCED, meaning stats being redistributed. Tempus has already stated the balancing is happening.
Leave it be, if anything, the change may not be as drastic as people are making it out UNLESS you rely on the gear to raid.
It may not affect normal exp groups much if at all.
 
I really try to avoid this forum for the reasons shown above, but I really feel that the solution to at least the Tailoring side of this debate is quite simple.

I suggest that the Type 5 Mana augments be moved in line with the HP ones: 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 for low, medium, fine, high and exceptionaly quality, respectively.

I feel that this would (1) Lower the amount of "this item has too much mana" complaints by actually lowering the amount of mana on the armor with mana augs, being most of it; (2) Help to encourage greater customization of each individual's pieces of armor, by making the use of other types of augments a bit more reasonable; (3) Leave the un-augmented armor alone as it seems balanced without augments, for those who can't or won't afford them yet.

I took a straw poll, and it seems Kaldaine and Hillary agree... so that's makes three of us 250 Tailors that share this sentiment. It's not a "we're smarter than you" thing, but I think it's worth a consideration. Thanks for your time!
 
ii would say its better to drop ts down to one aug than kill mana augs for everyone else, also it is not just the SS that is getting balanced anyways. I doubt the changes will effect anyone really. For casuals it will still be the best armor, it mainly will just not trivialize the first few raiding tiers. I figure they are only going to knock off a few points of stats and about 30 mana per piece in the first place so its only like 10 wis instead of 12.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom