Paladin DPS

[Miffy]

To the ae agro and DS dps agrument, there is one problem here... the paladin is not doing the dps the spell is and the spell can be cast on any character. I have seen bards and even a monk deal tremendous amounts of DS damage to many many mobs. And guess what bards can ae agro so can any class with an ae dmg spell and all of them can have a DS on to do the same damage. What you are arguing is that if you want to fight 6 low resisting mobs then a paladin is the easiest choice for dishing DS dps, but please do not mistake this for paladin dps as other classes have the same ability and arguably are better at it than paladins although they have to use a bit more skill to maintain agro.

Also remember that when a paladin is tanking 6+ mobs at once his melee dps drops to nothing due to aux tanking yet another reason to up pally dps imo.

 

[Budizzle]

To the ae agro and DS dps agrument, there is one problem here... the paladin is not doing the dps the spell is and the spell can be cast on any character. I have seen bards and even a monk deal tremendous amounts of DS damage to many many mobs. And guess what bards can ae agro so can any class with an ae dmg spell and all of them can have a DS on to do the same damage. What you are arguing is that if you want to fight 6 low resisting mobs then a paladin is the easiest choice for dishing DS dps, but please do not mistake this for paladin dps as other classes have the same ability and arguably are better at it than paladins although they have to use a bit more skill to maintain agro.

Also remember that when a paladin is tanking 6+ mobs at once his melee dps drops to nothing due to aux tanking yet another reason to up pally dps imo.

This thread is about tank dps...

Aux tank is yet another reason to buff paladin spell dps. Also, it's been mentioned that melee damage while tanking 6+ mobs accounts for the minority of your dps anyway.

 

[stope21]

If you want to add ds as a function of damage coming from the tank, then any raid where a warrior is tanking would it be fair to add the damage coming from his ds + his mellee damage? He would then be leaving both the pally and the sk in the dust. It's not that simple, yall are only looking at half the picture.

Furthermore, you act like its impossible for a warrior/sk to ever be tanking 10 mobs at once. Have you ever done DN where you are tanking 15 rats? You are getting that same benefit.

Again, when we are sitting toe to toe with a raid boss, this isn't even part of the picture.

 

[stope21]

Also, the ability to tank that many mobs is HIGHLY dependant on gear. Personally, more than 4 orcs in EC can be an issue geared as I am. I've played paladins with better gear, and yea it eventually gets easier to take the damage, and you do get a few less resists, but again, it's still hard to keep aggro on more than 6.

Why is ringo being used as the benchmark pally. Look what ringo can do, man pallies are good. Ringo is far above any other paladin in the game. People look at what he can do, or better yet, what I can do on him and think that's a good representation of the classes power. I don't think Ringo is a good assessment of the paladin at all. I am the only pally w/ a 1,200,000pp charm, 35 damage reduction (yes, 35, that's not a typo), and nearly every item in the game. I think most pallies can hold agro on 5 - 6 things, but the problem is its just not realistic for a group to continually tank that many in tougher exp zones.

Flame of Light could really use an upgrade or maybe start a small spell line to get some MR based spear-like DD.

I also like this idea as others have suggested, but I personally view pallies as more of the hack and slash types than casting spells like the ranger's ice rend or the sk's spears. That's why I prefer the stance improvement option over spell damage. Also the cool part of using a stance is that it is less useful in groups when you should be in s3 most of the time b/c the pally will most likely be tanking. This makes it more significant to the raid game/situations where other people are tanking and less significant to grouping where paladins have a small edge. Basically, it fits nicely into their niche without overpowering other classes when compared on the group level.

 

[Eustace]

How about just give pallies an innate melee proc that scales in damage with level, tome bonus, and atk rating?

 

[Rorne]

How about just give pallies an innate melee proc that scales in damage with level, tome bonus, and atk rating?

Only problem with this is that from time to time you run in to fights where you wouldn't want an innate proc.

 

[Miffy]

/cm Fury of God on
/cm Fury of God off

 

[stope21]

althuna, not god

 

[Kirin Folken]

Edit:

I would support a /cm Wrath of Althuna On/Off innate Proc ability.


Since by the parses it definitely looks like Paladins are falling behind in DPS, dispite supposely being set up as the DPS tank. The Nerf to /s 4, even further hits paladins due to the -neg haste on /s 3.

I would like to see parses done with the 3 tanks across a few tiers to see if thiers any spikes in DPS etc or if its pretty normal progression and to see were everyone falls.
(Easy to ask for , hard to get done due to time etc).

 

[Rorne]

Yeah I definitely think this idea is going in a better direction. Depending on the resist mod the proc has this could also help address some issues Paladins have keeping aggro on high MR mobs.

 

[Severien]

Depending on the resist mod the proc has this could also help address some issues Paladins have keeping aggro on high MR mobs.

If it had any real hate to it, that would chip away at the already small advantage that shadowknights have over paladins in single target aggro (this advantage being unresistable aggro - if a mob is completely MRless a paladin actually has the stronger aggro). The design of paladins being crappy against mobs with high MR helps give shadowknights a niche that they wouldn't otherwise have, and paladins already have a -very- comfortable niche in undead mobs and zones where you tank multiple mobs at a time.

 

[Vartenaal]

Again, you are completely ignoring your potential spells. Your spells alone should have the capacity to negate most of a warrior's melee dps imo.

wth does this mean?

Paladin melee dps is overpowered compared to their spell damage. Again, your very own parses have confirmed this.

we get...spell damage? besides consecrate and sanctify, what do you mean exactly? the HUGE mana cost stuns that do 200 dmg every 30seconds? or the Archaic: Paladin Moon Comet of Althuna spell that does 150dd (aka flame of light)? paladins only get 3 dmg spells, 2 of which are pretty much glued to 2 zones - hhk and catacombs - and the other is completely useless past like tier 2.

Next time, before you get all hot and sweaty and start bashing people for being dolts or complete fucking idiots because they dont know anything about other classes, reread some of your brilliant and eloquently worded posts, and ask yourself: does the shit i post/troll about actually sound like it was written by a rational, adequate person basing judgement on facts.

 

[Noktar]

If you want to add ds as a function of damage coming from the tank, then any raid where a warrior is tanking would it be fair to add the damage coming from his ds + his mellee damage? He would then be leaving both the pally and the sk in the dust. It's not that simple, yall are only looking at half the picture.

You fail to see what buddizle says since every raid where a Sk tanks the sk is best dps then and every raid where a paladin tanks the Paladin is best dps then.

Furthermore, you act like its impossible for a warrior/sk to ever be tanking 10 mobs at once. Have you ever done DN where you are tanking 15 rats? You are getting that same benefit.

A paladin tanking multiple mobs in a xp situation is good xp and doable while trying to get anything done xp wise with a group where the warrior or sk is tanking more then 2 mobs will not work out very good if at all. This is the sole reason paladins dominate for xp groups. and you cant go around making it sound like its not big at all.

This however does nothing for a raid. And groupwise paladins should not get any better as they are if you ask me, raidwise could be a different story.

A tank able to heal will always be hard to balance. Looking spell sets and class build up a shadowknight seems more of a damage dealing class then a paladin and I don't know why a paladin needs to be highest dps.

Currently it is very possible to have an "efficient" raid guild without a shadowknight but it is almost imposible to go without a paladin due to encounters along the tiers. (This is all pre Inner Sanctum as i never been there) The question right now is are the 3 tanks where they are now inbalanced? does anything really need to change? Or would a dps increase be followed by a nerf of some other department.

 

[Notpit]

A paladin tanking multiple mobs in a xp situation is good xp and doable while trying to get anything done xp wise with a group where the warrior or sk is tanking more then 2 mobs will not work out very good if at all.

I think that ia factually incorrect.

Before Gankuag (SK) was all decked out with Numinous gear, he was still pulling half of DN at a time and doing a very good job. Well to be more accurate, he would pull the topside from the entrance all the way through the tunnel. In rat city he tried to limit it to 8-10. All he needed was for the healer to back away if he got aggro so that he could target it and taunt it back with an aggro spell. And that was with my druid using two PBAE spells as often as possible between heals. He could also pull multiples in other zones as well, but the healing ability of my druid limited him to fewer mobs than what he did in DN.

Amicii's lazy monks in EXP groups rarely try to split and pull multiple mobs with no major problem [of course they dont try that with a Wiz in the group, but even a paladin would have difficulty with a nuke-happy wizard.].

Clearly paladins have an advantage in taunting multiple mobs. But other classes do well also. At the least Noktar is over-stating the case in my opinion.

But perhaps more important, the thread is about the intended role of the Paladin. Wiz said that he did not want three tanks doing about the same thing. His intent was for Paladins to have the highest dps, around the level of a monk/ranger. And no, DS is not a tank's dps, it is the Druid's or Mage's dps.

And, if warriors are to be the premier melee tank class, that leaves spells or proc. I think the proc idea has great potential and can reflect whatever aggro effect that the devs have in mind for paladins.

 

[Wesell]

[...] Before Gankuag (SK) was all decked out with Numinous gear, he was still pulling half of DN at a time and doing a very good job. [...]

Any class with some type of aggro generating ability can multi-tank somewhere like DN or Miel C because the MOBs have so little HP that a small amount of initial aggro will last most of the fight. They also are so weak that little healing is required so it's not like your healer is going to pull them off with heal aggro much.

 

[stope21]

You fail to see what buddizle says since every raid where a Sk tanks the sk is best dps then and every raid where a paladin tanks the Paladin is best dps then.

Ugh, I understand this concept fully. But this is because of DS only. I clearly said that you shouldn't use DS as a component of the tank's dps when comparing tanks dps on raids. You have to make things fair. You clearly must have misinterpreted the information displayed in your quote. Another way to look at it is to imagine the warrior tanking and the sk/pal dpsing. The SK will be higher. At this point my limit on portraying a concept as clearly as I can has been met, and my concern with attempting to make it more clear has diminished entirely.

This however does nothing for a raid. And groupwise paladins should not get any better as they are if you ask me, raidwise could be a different story.

I feel that you are challenging this suggestion, but your challenge is ironically agreeing with something I have already touched on:

The cool part of using a stance is that it is less useful in groups when you should be in s3 most of the time b/c the pally will most likely be tanking. This makes it more significant to the raid game/situations where other people are tanking and less significant to grouping where paladins have a small edge. Basically, it fits nicely into their niche without overpowering other classes when compared on the group level.

To move on:

Currently it is very possible to have an "efficient" raid guild without a shadowknight but it is almost imposible to go without a paladin due to encounters along the tiers. (This is all pre Inner Sanctum as i never been there) The question right now is are the 3 tanks where they are now imbalanced? does anything really need to change? Or would a dps increase be followed by a nerf of some other department.

You're right, <Steel> had SOOO much difficulty because they never had a consistent paladin.

Lets take a look at another prime example of a guild doing EXTREMELY well w/o a paladin. Numinous. They sure have been struggling to progress w/o a paladin.

Lets look at what both these guilds have in common. Wow, whats that... hmm.. Finster and Gankuag.. two good sks.

I think you are wrong here and have provided some quite irrefutable examples.

 

[Gregor]

Any class with some type of aggro generating ability can multi-tank somewhere like DN or Miel C because the MOBs have so little HP that a small amount of initial aggro will last most of the fight. They also are so weak that little healing is required so it's not like your healer is going to pull them off with heal aggro much.

Wesell that was only one example from long long ago. He does just fine in higher tiered exp zones. I would say it mostly boils down to him being on his toes and instantly casting hate once an add peals off. I group with Gank alot and I would say he is a better then average player by far at his class. That helps him and any sk like him to hold ago on multiple targets at once. I'm not going to go so far as to say he's pallylike, but anyone who plays an SK like him comes pretty darn close sometimes.

It pretty much boils down to being on the ball nothing more nothing less really.

 

[Notpit]

Gregor, you are absolutely correct. Even back then he would pause, cast his aggro spell on each mob and move on. And since then I have tried to aggro off him using my Paladin's two AE spells with very little success. And I think Fivof's spells will generate similar aggro to even Ringo's.


But these balance discussions are really diverting the main topic here.

In fact, heres a staff chat leak describing how the most recent paladin thread is going, but the same formula can be applied to most any thread in s/r.

I AM A PALADIN THIS IS HOW SK's ARE
I AM AN SK THATS NOT HOW SKS ARE THIS IS HOW PALADINS ARE
I AM A WARRIOR THIS IS HOW PALADIN AND SKS ARE
rinse and repeat

 

[neonovas]

we get...spell damage? besides consecrate and sanctify, what do you mean exactly? the HUGE mana cost stuns that do 200 dmg every 30seconds? or the Archaic: Paladin Moon Comet of Althuna spell that does 150dd (aka flame of light)? paladins only get 3 dmg spells, 2 of which are pretty much glued to 2 zones - hhk and catacombs - and the other is completely useless past like tier 2.

I think Bud was pointing out that it should and obviously it doesnt because you have no dmg spells.

 

[Miffy]

I agree with stope that paladins are in no way Needed on raids. and the need goes down as the tiers go up for a few main reasons.
1. The difference in hp gained from SSS and SV becomes less and less an issues the more total hp characters have.

2. Mobs resists get higher and higher.

3. Self heals and group hots do not scale up as fast as mob dps/AE damage

As it is at my current tier there are at least 4 or 5 encounters and even trash mobs that I can not tank effectively because they resist most or all of my agro spells. What I am saying is that on encounters where multiple adds spawn AE agro is often useless because mobs resist it either completely or 80% of the time. The raid would then be more efficient to have another SK or War in my spot both in terms of dps and add control.

I do agree that the Paladins role in groups is ok as is, but I find myself increasingly useless, or rather I would be much more effective as one of the other two tanks in all three categories of 1. agro 2. mitigation/avoidance 3. dps
All I want to see happen is that paladins be given more dps because then the three tanks would each be best at one out of three categories on raids. As it stands at high tier encounters I find paladins consistently the worst in all three and this makes me sad. :dumbsad: