Paladin DPS

[Miffy]

Are you seriously arguing this angle?

All I am arguing is that, as stated by wiz and quoted in the thread, paladins should be the highest dps of the three tanks at the very least when the three tank classes are trying to deal dps. I was not saying that a warrior should walk around with a twohander while tanking, but sometimes a warrior uses a shield and tanks, if he wanted he could use a two hander he has the option to out dps the paladin as does the shadowknight. Paladins do not need to be doing huge dps while tanking hence the idea of a stance that ups dps but lowers avoidance/mitigation.

The real argument behind this thread for me is that with recent agro and warrior/paladin stance changes it has become clear that the three tanks are trying to be put clearly into their roles, and if the paladins role is to be the worst in terms of mitigation but the best in terms of dps then they need something to boost their dps, enough said.

I will try to do some parses tomorrow of me/behn and get some numbers up by this weekend.

 

[Enlityn3]

If I'm not mistaken, changes to pallies (at least a year back) were supposed to completely rebalance the class and make them the highest DPS of the 3 tanks. From what it sounded like the difference was supposed to be rather significant. If that concept of the pally is still in play, I would think they should recieve a dps boost and a stance would be a decent way of doing that.

 

[Salarus]

Just putting this out there as a thought. I've never understood why paladins have Finishing Blow as an AA as you have to be behind the mob for it to work. Could this be created into a more DPSish AA? Stance would be great too. Just tossing ideas around really...

 

[robopirateninja]

I'm pretty sure AAs that are shared across multiple classes so changing finishing blow to a dps buff for paladins would be a dps buff for every other class with finishing blow as well.

 

[Budizzle]

I didn't say anything about tanking, I am merely regarding having the ability to dps. So your saying s10 is not more dps than s2 and will not increase your total dps over a fight? It most certainly will.

Your right tanking matters little with agro, but this isn't about agro at all. This is about being able to dps. If i were including that you need to hold agro while dpsing my argument would have looked totally different. Warriors are now far and above the best tanks, and paladins are left dry doing the shittiest dps of the the tanks when they are dpsing. Should a warrior who already is the best tank, also be a better dps when he isnt tanking that fight? That is what this addresses. I would have included the fact that when a knight tanks they spam agro spells which cuts into the time they melee attack. A warrior doesn't have to stop attacking and cast, they just constantly attack. There's two sides to your quick opposition. I am attempting to examine the fewest variables as possible so that the most people can understand this the easiest. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I am also bringing this up, as from my understanding of wiz's class goals that paladins were supposed to be the best dps of the tanks, and they plain and simply arn't. This has been spoken on by other people in the thread.

Your right, i forgot to mention this. I also forgot to mention the sk version of it. Thanks for bringing this up. However, from my experience it still doesn't give paladins the edge in dps over sks/wars.

I've read quite a few of your posts, and honestly the most appalling element surrounding them is that you might actually believe the bullshit you spew dilutes the truth. Spoilers: it doesn't.

I completely agree that paladins should be the highest parsing tank class, but you're a dolt for citing warrior /s 10 as a staple of or reference to either class' dps capacity, or lack thereof. I can detail how your logic is flawed -- replete with bright colors, pop up pictures, and cute analogies -- or you can just fucking accept that GASP maybe people are intimate with their class' (mal)functions. The choice is yours.

I think knight 1handers have been progressing too rapidly. As a result, there's limitations to what other aspects of the class can be buffed without overpowering existing weapons and honoring the current theme of progression. Paladin dps should be more asymmetrical and less favorable toward melee imo. All things considered, melee and spell damage stand irrelevant against a tank's premier form of dps: damage shield. Far and away. The only thing that will even come close to bridging the gap is tomes, and even full tomes will not seal it completely.

Let's not discard the possibility that you're full of shit to begin with. Show me some parses that verify shadowknights and warriors do infact channel more dps than paladins. Your word is worthless considering your integrity is questionable at best.

 

[robopirateninja]

You do realize that your post has all of the same flaws as Stope's, right?

 

[Noktar]

I would love to see parses of saame tier geared pal, sk and war to back up this statement. Its my understanding that Pals do the most dps while all arre in the same stance (like defensive). I dont know how much dps the dots and spears add for sks. Nor do i know how long a warrior will be able to hold up his haste style on a 5 minute fight. If these get them over a Paladins dps then it should be changed.

Wiz said that Paladins are supposed to be the best dps tanks.

 

[stope21]

I've read quite a few of your posts, and honestly the most appalling element surrounding them is that you might actually believe the bullshit you spew dilutes the truth. Spoilers: it doesn't.

I completely agree that paladins should be the highest parsing tank class, but you're a dolt for citing warrior /s 10 as a staple of or reference to either class' dps capacity, or lack thereof. I can detail how your logic is flawed -- replete with bright colors, pop up pictures, and cute analogies -- or you can just fucking accept that GASP maybe people are intimate with their class' (mal)functions. The choice is yours.

Please "detail why my logic is flawed." You are suffering from a self serving biased. I am not a mind reader, and no I wont accept your statement with no supporting details and a brief "just accept it" statement. I understand people may know their class and may know how to play. That is wonderful, yet not applicable to anything.

Paladin dps should be more asymmetrical and less favorable toward melee imo.

What are you talking about? My dps should be more asymmetrical? Okay guy.

All things considered, melee and spell damage stand irrelevant against a tank's premier form of dps: damage shield.

Now your saying mellee dps is irrelevant. You are right, when im meleeing a raid boss being tanked by a warrior or a sk, my melee dps is COMPLETLY irrelevant. Are you insane? You act like all tanks are always tanking. I'm a pally, on raids I tank only if both our warrior and sk are dead.

I can't believe you have the audacity to call me a dolt when you are so ironically wrong.

I think knight 1handers have been progressing too rapidly. As a result, there's limitations to what other aspects of the class can be buffed without overpowering existing weapons and honoring the current theme of progression.

I don't see the point you are trying to make. I've already established that 2hers are more dps than 1hers from a higher teir. I'm not asking for 1hers or 2hers to be changed, and I think the progression on weapons that I can use is actually quite good. Can you please make a more understandable statement?


Anyways, it is near impossible for me to fairly parse the 3 classes. I have more tomes than each, more attack, crit strike. Theres differences everywhere. It wouldn't be very accurate, but I may post something that gives you an example of the disparity.

 

[stope21]

From TU forums, a post by manguadi:

All of these were done in aggressive stance. Ringo cast a heal or two on himself, but otherwise used no mana. I used varying amount of mana on jenks, sometimes casting occasionally, sometimes chain casting. I used deflux and his 2 spears for dps. The mobs hp varied between 40k and 45k. Fights lasted between 2 and 4 minutes. Jenks never used more than 50m in a single fight with only jb.

Also note that ringo had 10% (2 full tomes) above jenks when the parsing was completed.. The mobs were darkwood treants.

edit: ohh 3rd parse miss/avoidance got messed up a little, forgot to mention that

 

[wolfwalkerEci]

hmm whats that chart suppose to show again? cause im seeing paladin dps > sk dps however you did comment that you have more tome.
I think that just derails the point of this thread. I would like to see a prase with War / Pal / Sk on a non-casting mob with no more then a 12% tome differance between each player. Its damn hard to get everything just right and perfect but get it close and show us some parses if you can.
FYI- I think paladin DPS needs to be higher. Paladins can tank with the best when required but when exping shit just dies to slow for my liking.

 

[Nodnal]

Add up the slash dps with the spell casting dps. Jenks is higher in each one but one instance.

 

[Arcen]

Jenks is doing more dps overall then Ringo, even when Ringo had more tome done. Jenks mellee dps is down from Ringo, but adding in spell/proc dmg, Jenks is coming out on top.

I wonder why Jenks melee dps is down vs Ringo. Is it because of stopping to cast or inferior weapon?

Overall, pallies are currently pretty close to SKs in melee dps (same weapon, no dps stances.) What differentiation there is, is from Pallies innate crit, and itemization.

When you add in the spell casting abilities, Pallies have:
*FLAME OF LIGHT* (125 dd, 18 sec recast)
Stuns (VERY annoying push-back, and if we are dpsing and not tanking, these will get us agro in a hurry.)
AoE Stun 201dd/stun
Single target stun 201
(Undead only.. we have a 550 an 1875 AOE and a 273 single target. While very useful and makes us king of dps in the undead arena, the lack of undead zones/raids make this very situational.)

I assume both SKs and Pallys self-proc is roughly the same.

SKs get:
Spear of Agony (675 DD, 1 min recast)
Deflux (330 Lifetap, 0 Recast, 3 sec cast time)
Drain Soul (338 Lifetap, 0 Recast, 6 sec cast time)
Ignite Blood (112/tick dot, 9 ticks)
Devouring Darkness (123/tick dot, 13 ticks)
Bond of Death (150/tick dot, 5 ticks)
Harm Touch (nice dps spike once every 36 min)

Pet... eh, pretty weak, but ok when farming low end crap.

They also get FD, allowing them to drop agro if they get to much from DPSing (lol).

Wiz's vision of paladins being better dps then SKs never made sense to me, since SKs spell lineup for DPS is already in place, and Pallies dps line is heavily lacking general dps spells.

Overall? Exactly how much innate crit do Pallies get? Is that Innate crit so much that it makes up for having very little spell dps? Just a quick look at Ringo/Jenks parsing, SKs > Pally for dps (Outside of Undead areas, but boy does HHK/Cata get BORING after so many runs through.) (And supposedly suppose to be the better tank as well.)

I would also like to see Warrior parses vs Pally/Sk.

 

[neonovas]

i believe innate crits are 10%

They also give groups cleansing blow which bumps crits from 2x to 3x dmg which contributes to them being the "dps" tank, catch is, it only works vs undead where they have no problems being higher dps than sk/war anyway.

also while i'm no SK, you should probably throw in the mana/cast times for those dots, because i doubt they are used much. I know that darkness spell is like 400mp and i doubt an SK is going to be using it when tanking a mob. Even when hes trying to DPS and for some reason does cast it...he wont be doing it long before he has no mana.

 

[Maethorr]

I do think that a conciderable buff to the yaulp spell line would help bring paladins in line without changing anything major and with little work or rebalancing needed as face it, no tank is a significant amount of raid dps compared to the rogues, rangers, wizzys and mages. The other added benefit is that if you still continued to give clerics yaulp as well it would actually make the spell useful for them in a group to use as long as they did not get the -agro component or if the minus agro only effected melee damage and not healing/spell damage.

My idea is something like this have 1 version that gives +attack overcap haste ext for the paladin and then at the high end give them one that has a massive bonus with a -20 or more percent agro component and just beef the hell out of it aka pretty much just a giantkin to make it so that paladins have a dps option when not tanking. The minus agro component would make it so that its not overpowered and doesn't give them to much agro so they can not tank with it. As it is the current Yaulp spells would be practically worthless if not for the sizable ac buff they have, fact it yaulp 4 has like 17 attack and 40 str which is pitiful for something meant to add to dps.

edit, sorry for the crappy run on and grammar. I just got off work and have been packing for a trip home for a few days so I am in a hurry.

 

[Rorne]

While I understand there is a three tome difference it looks like you're still pretty consistently out-DPSing Jenks with pure melee so I'm at a loss to see what you want changed exactly. Comparing straight melee to melee + spells is pretty useless for this argument because lore situation aside your class was not designed around offensive spells. This is like a shadowknight complaining his lifetaps aren't as good as your heals

 

[Arcen]

To do DPS as either a pally or a SK, you have to burn alot of mana, and is generally unsustainable. This is true of pretty much any class.. to do stuff that is not considered your "role", you can do it for a short period before you run out of mana.

If Paladin's role is suppose to be more dps heavy, we need not only more dps spells (and/or better melee options, whether via stances, AAs, or innate skills), but those spells need to be light on mana.

In Groups:
Currently with 6 FT, its a toss-up of who has to med first, me or the healer. If there are lots of adds/aoe style tanking, I generally run low quicker then the healer (of the same tier.) If most of it is singles, my mana is fine. If there are AoE and I group heal semi-regularly, it kills my mana. I think pallies are fine in the group role as far as mana goes (currently...) If I am not the tank... wtf am I doing not being the tank in a group.

For solo, I have my self heals. Theres nothing else worth spending the mana on.

In Raids: Except for AoE (either AoE dmg or adds spawning), long lasting fights, I always have mana to play with, but nothing to do with it.

So if we are adding a bit of dps for pallies we need the option(s) of:
Big Mana, Big effect, hits any type of mob (no more undead stuff) spells in raid game
Melee stances for DPS
Improved crit strike/accuracy etc
Better DPS AAs.

One option I like would be a medium mana (250ish), short lasting (5 min?) good stacking DS (25ish pt) spell to improve our AoE style of tanking.

 

[Maethorr]

Thats why I suggested the yaulp change. Yaulp is low mana cost and quick/instant cast so its not like your losing dps. The -healing and -agro would balance it to make it so that its not used when tanking and not so overpowered that paladins can still do everything while dpsing. It gives them a choice and allows them to be more flexible holy warriors which would fit in with althuna as well.

The ds is never going to happen, just forget it now.

DS tanking in groups has already become overpowered in they way it allows paladins to do insanely well in grouping zones like hhk and rust where you have many low hp fast hitting mobs adding another ds would make it insane while doing nothing in the raid game for them.

Half of your suggestions would be a slap in the face to other classes such as giving paladins more criting that warriors and rogues who specialize in melee combat as a pure focus, which i think rogues should still get innane crits especially since they gave it to paladins, that was already a slap in the face.

Any change should fit in with the idea of paladins being holy warriors that get their power from their god althuna and not just tacked on.

 

[Arcen]

While I understand there is a three tome difference it looks like you're still pretty consistently out-DPSing Jenks with pure melee so I'm at a loss to see what you want changed exactly. Comparing straight melee to melee + spells is pretty useless for this argument because lore situation aside your class was not designed around offensive spells.

Um, we don't have any non-undead dmging spells except stun. So comparing dps without including SK spells is like comparing a bst's dps without his pet. The overall dps of the classes show that SK > Pally.

Quick look at the numbers, if you calculate the tome difference in is:
Ringo = 1357 slash DPS + 59 spell/proc dps = 1416 / 6 fights = 236 total DPS
Jenks = 1087 slash DPS + 535 spell/proc dps = 1622 / 6 fights = 270 total DPS

If Jenks had the 2 (10% more dmg) tomes more, he would be at: 297 DPS.

So equally teired/tomed SK vs Pally, the SK is roughly doing 60 more dps, or about 25% more damage then the pally.

If you will also note, on the 5th fight, when it looks like Jenks didn't cast and just meleed, he out DPSed Ringo. Not saying that would be normal/avg with that small of a sample, but still.

 

[Arcen]

Yaulp doesn't stack with Focus. You would need to fix that as well if Yaulp is going to be the answer.

"Slap in the face of other melee characters"?????
HUH?
Yes, cause pallies WAY out dps every melee out there...

At my tier, pets DPS > my DPS. I hit about 100dps or so. If a rogue is jeleous of our crit or whatever else for melee ability, they need to put down the crack.

 

[neonovas]

If you will also note, on the 5th fight, when it looks like Jenks didn't cast and just meleed, he out DPSed Ringo. Not saying that would be normal/avg with that small of a sample, but still.

Well if you look at the 3rd fight Jenks does even less spell DPS than in the 5th and still loses melee dps by 57. Excluding the 5th fight where Jenks won melee dps, the average ringo beat him by? 56.2 (including 5th is 45) So somethings weird in the 5th fight that made jenks win, he must of gotten a lot of crits and ringo didnt or something.