Paladin DPS
- Thread starter stope21
- Start date
Something like this would make sense.
Fervor of Althuna
100% overhaste
-300ac
200 Attack
-15% Healing and agro generation
instant cast
18 second Reuse
25 mana cost
The numbers are not exactly right but something like that would allow paladins to dps while not being overpowered or changing their ability to tank and get agro as it would be a dps solution/mode without requireing the work of editing stances, which knowing some programming I can assume making a decent dps stance for paladins that is balanced would be horribly difficult.
The short duration would allow paladins to still heal at full capacity as long as they were smart as well and timed their heals or clicked it when your group needed a heal at the cost of eating the 25 mana cost again.
Also the ac buff is why it does not stack I believe so this version should stack with all but giantkin which if your enchanter puts on a paladin he is retarted anyways and should be guild kicked within 30 seconds and publicly humiliated in ooc.
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paladin dps scales up sickly at the high end, that is why they cant really give knights any better weapons in the end game without some serious balance issues as it scales exponentially with a better damage weapon. Its the same reason all but 1 rogue piercers stop at 17 and the only one at 18 has a sizable attack debuff on it and only drops in the most insane place in the game.
Fervor of Althuna
100% overhaste
-300ac
200 Attack
-15% Healing and agro generation
instant cast
18 second Reuse
25 mana cost
The numbers are not exactly right but something like that would allow paladins to dps while not being overpowered or changing their ability to tank and get agro as it would be a dps solution/mode without requireing the work of editing stances, which knowing some programming I can assume making a decent dps stance for paladins that is balanced would be horribly difficult.
The short duration would allow paladins to still heal at full capacity as long as they were smart as well and timed their heals or clicked it when your group needed a heal at the cost of eating the 25 mana cost again.
Also the ac buff is why it does not stack I believe so this version should stack with all but giantkin which if your enchanter puts on a paladin he is retarted anyways and should be guild kicked within 30 seconds and publicly humiliated in ooc.
edit
paladin dps scales up sickly at the high end, that is why they cant really give knights any better weapons in the end game without some serious balance issues as it scales exponentially with a better damage weapon. Its the same reason all but 1 rogue piercers stop at 17 and the only one at 18 has a sizable attack debuff on it and only drops in the most insane place in the game.
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Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
This thread was created to showcase a disparity in pure melee DPS between the tanks so no, including spells does not make sense at all. As for your math in attributing a straight 10% to his damage from tomes, sadly it does not work that way. You are ignoring a ton of variables which depend on things like the mitigation of the mob you're fighting. The only real way to parse that would be if Ringo could find a shadowknight with 5 tomes as well, otherwise speculation as to how much damage they would have added for Jenks is pretty useless.
As a class you can't have it all and I really don't get how overall game balance seems to be escaping many of you. All I hear is that you want comparable tanking, comparable DPS, and then you want healing the the utility of your class on top of that. It doesn't make sense.
i thought that it doesn't stack with empower not focus.
Also your spell would allow paladins to swap between dps-tank modes instantly, with no penalty and for practically free. At least when DPS classes swap to "tank" modes (invul stances, auto-parry, split dmg with pet) it drains their stamina and for at least invul stances leaves them exhausted.
I thought this thread was about pal DPS vs sk/war? Pets cant tank and really have no place in the argument about tank class dps. I'm sure a rogue without an offhand could out DPS you too, but it has nothing to do with tank class dps.
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Aluadon
Dalayan Beginner
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
You are correct
It would still be simple to change the spell slot to the same one GoG occupies.
Also that the minus agro on the spell would not allow them to switch to tanking instantly, it would not allow them to build up agro quickly. You could make it something like -40% which would pretty much put them pretty damn low on the hate list making it not an instant option to go to tanking right away it would take at least 3 or 4 stuns to get agro from this mode probably more so its not like they could just switch when something goes wrong or they feel like it. Its something that would require forethought and skill to use correctly especially on a raid.
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Well, I am done trying to help a class I don't even play get balanced. Got a 7 hour bus ride to catch.
Also that the minus agro on the spell would not allow them to switch to tanking instantly, it would not allow them to build up agro quickly. You could make it something like -40% which would pretty much put them pretty damn low on the hate list making it not an instant option to go to tanking right away it would take at least 3 or 4 stuns to get agro from this mode probably more so its not like they could just switch when something goes wrong or they feel like it. Its something that would require forethought and skill to use correctly especially on a raid.
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Well, I am done trying to help a class I don't even play get balanced. Got a 7 hour bus ride to catch.
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I didnt say they could grab agro and tank instantly, i said "tank mode", if they did get agro they wouldn't be out anything. While if you were a monk/rogue who had to pop into tank mode and hit invul stance, once it dropped they'd be exhausted and still penalized for their awesome short duration tanking skills.
If anything give them a line of nukes with no hate, low cast time, moderate-high mp usage, 15-20 CDs and decent damage that they can spam when they arent tanking and can spare the mana. They already out melee dps SKs why buff their free dps more.
2 cents from an old Live player of a Cleric and moderate level player of a Paladin, but completely new SoD player... (Take with grain of salt if doesn't apply)
A simple solution, if possible, would be to recode what the Yaulp line of spells do at certain levels.
The difference in Yaulp 4 and Yaulp 5 on Live was huge, so huge that clerics only began melee'ers once they had 5. Most paladins I knew didn't bother with the Yaulp series since having a Shaman in the group (strength buff and stamina regen) gave similar results. Further, that was one more space for a stun, and more player attention to party member hp bars instead of reclicking Yaulp every few seconds.
Since the problem from this thread seems to be the added SK spell damage giving SKs a total damage bonus over Pallies (especially at the high end), why not:
1. Give Paladins Yaulp 5 at ~level 63. Using it would not allow you the 50 AC buff from Yaulp 4, but give you self haste, strength, and attack. (Thus, more damage to the single mob with a lessened tanking ability.)
2. If number one isn't possible, look at the entire Yaulp line of spells and balance them so that Yaulp 4 gets some of the haste component and a lengthened duration. (This way, being part of a group with a shaman or enchanter, thus haste, negates the haste bonus.) Does this fix the raid issue? No. However, it fixes the single class balance between the SK and the Paladin.
Just a "newbie to SoD"'s thoughts.
PS: Also, as a Live moderate level player of a SK, I would not like Paladins having a "stun free" damage spell, no matter the agro. Why? Because one of the token features of the SK and Ranger classes was their ability to "quick nuke" to pull a mob. Paladins and Warriors must train in a bow to pull. Yes, it isn't much of a change, but for dynamics, it changes a fundamental feature of the "playstyle" of the classes.
A simple solution, if possible, would be to recode what the Yaulp line of spells do at certain levels.
The difference in Yaulp 4 and Yaulp 5 on Live was huge, so huge that clerics only began melee'ers once they had 5. Most paladins I knew didn't bother with the Yaulp series since having a Shaman in the group (strength buff and stamina regen) gave similar results. Further, that was one more space for a stun, and more player attention to party member hp bars instead of reclicking Yaulp every few seconds.
Since the problem from this thread seems to be the added SK spell damage giving SKs a total damage bonus over Pallies (especially at the high end), why not:
1. Give Paladins Yaulp 5 at ~level 63. Using it would not allow you the 50 AC buff from Yaulp 4, but give you self haste, strength, and attack. (Thus, more damage to the single mob with a lessened tanking ability.)
2. If number one isn't possible, look at the entire Yaulp line of spells and balance them so that Yaulp 4 gets some of the haste component and a lengthened duration. (This way, being part of a group with a shaman or enchanter, thus haste, negates the haste bonus.) Does this fix the raid issue? No. However, it fixes the single class balance between the SK and the Paladin.
Just a "newbie to SoD"'s thoughts.
PS: Also, as a Live moderate level player of a SK, I would not like Paladins having a "stun free" damage spell, no matter the agro. Why? Because one of the token features of the SK and Ranger classes was their ability to "quick nuke" to pull a mob. Paladins and Warriors must train in a bow to pull. Yes, it isn't much of a change, but for dynamics, it changes a fundamental feature of the "playstyle" of the classes.
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Miffy
Dalayan Adventurer
Not quite right, paladins have 3x crits on undead and simply give other classes the ability to crit normaly on undead (without a pally no crits at all) if I am not mistaken.
As to the yaulp idea, it is an ok solution and if you look at the new spells on the parser you can see something of the sort is being tested. But this solution not only takes a buff slot and a spell gem it also does not adress the problem until the highend raidgame and until ikisith comes out. If warriors were put into their propper place it only seems fair that paladins get the same respect.
PS. going to do some serious parsing now.
Whoops, i meant stun or AA stun. The blind still works that way i believe, so yeah its probably a terrible idea like you said. BTW, the AA is AMAZING. First time i borrow my friends paladin to tank some maps I was constantly oom because i forgot about it.
I'm pretty sure i Crit vs undead without a paladin
Why limit it to PURE MELEE DPS? Where did you get that idea. Its the overall dps of the paladin class vs that of the other tanks that we are looking at.
Nope. Undead are like Golems. Can't be crit normally. Thats not to say you can't crit normally against mobs that have undead models, which is an entirely different thing. Lots of undead models aren't flagged undead.
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Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Becuase you are never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever going to do comparable spell DPS to a shadowknight. If you were, things would be horribly broken.
Go read the quote by wiz. I don't care where our dps increase comes from, but pally DPS is suppose to be highest among tanks. Not just melee, not just spell, but overall DPS. If thats upping our melee dps in some way or our spell dps in some way or a combination of spell and melee, one of those things needs to go happen in order for us to be higher dps.
With our agro being pure MR based, holding agro in the higher end is more dicey then non-resisted SK agro. Our tanking stance is now <= SK. Our mitigation <<< Warriors and roughly equivelent to SKs.
Right now Pally tanking < SK <<< Warrior. Our utility ~= SK. The answer to this equation is supposedly overall DPS. And that is just not happening right now.
With our agro being pure MR based, holding agro in the higher end is more dicey then non-resisted SK agro. Our tanking stance is now <= SK. Our mitigation <<< Warriors and roughly equivelent to SKs.
Right now Pally tanking < SK <<< Warrior. Our utility ~= SK. The answer to this equation is supposedly overall DPS. And that is just not happening right now.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Oh yeah, things are so dire for paladins what with the utility of AE taunt ability and group heals. The only valid point you have is that high MR mobs make your aggro pretty sketchy. If you can not understand why Paladins can't be doing more DPS than shadowknights while still retaining their heals and buffs then I just don't know what to say to you.
I'm not sure if this is widely known, but I believe there are four different kinds of haste from eqlive. (assuming same here since it is the same client)
1.) Normal haste item
2.) Spell haste
3.) Bard song "Overhaste (V3)" stacks with spell haste, raidwide
4.) Bard song "Overhaste (V2)" stacks with spell haste as well as V3 song overhaste, group only (Link: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1452&source=Live)
I played a bard and have often twisted V2 & 3 together stacking their effects. (in eqlive)
The reason I am explaining this is because someone suggested putting a haste component into Yalup 4 and sounds very reasonable as to improving paladin's DPS by a small yet noticeble margin. Consider the recent change in paladin's melee style Guarding Blade, which strips paladin's tankability to even lower than before when compare to the other 2 tank classes, it would help balance the paladin class a little and fulfill its purpose of "the DPS (not crazily) choice of all three tank classes". (Please do not go argue about pally shouldn't be DPS and what not, I linked a thread which made by Wiz in the earlier days explaining that paladin IS the DPS class of the tank choices, but significantly lower than true melee DPS)
Back to turning Yaulp 4 into haste topic -
1.) Add V2 haste component into Yaulp 4 (V2 as in reference to the bard V2 song haste which is group only) a 10% stackable haste with spell (V1) & bard song raidwide (V3) that is for GROUP only. It is but a slight improvement of DPS for a single paladin, but when it is used in group, it contributes a reasonable amount to a single group's overall DPS. This will also increase the desire of having more than 1 paladin on raid encounters when planning a pure melee group.
2.) Another option is to consider completely changing an existing spell that's within a Paladin's spell arsenal into this V2 overhaste effect. (such as, flame of light)
3.) If changing Yaulp 4 into an overhaste. clerics would be thinking - what of Yaulp 5 and 6, a 75% and 100% haste respectively?
They remain unchanged, as to give cleric an option to choose between Yaulp 4 and 6 depending on situation. Such as melee cleric would not sacrifice Yaulp 5 or 6 when he has no other spell haste already cast on himself, but would throw in the Yaulp 4 if he already had a spell haste. Making Yaulp 4 and 5 or 6 overwrites each others to mitigate the possible abuse.
Would this be a reasonable and doable option?
1.) Normal haste item
2.) Spell haste
3.) Bard song "Overhaste (V3)" stacks with spell haste, raidwide
4.) Bard song "Overhaste (V2)" stacks with spell haste as well as V3 song overhaste, group only (Link: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1452&source=Live)
I played a bard and have often twisted V2 & 3 together stacking their effects. (in eqlive)
The reason I am explaining this is because someone suggested putting a haste component into Yalup 4 and sounds very reasonable as to improving paladin's DPS by a small yet noticeble margin. Consider the recent change in paladin's melee style Guarding Blade, which strips paladin's tankability to even lower than before when compare to the other 2 tank classes, it would help balance the paladin class a little and fulfill its purpose of "the DPS (not crazily) choice of all three tank classes". (Please do not go argue about pally shouldn't be DPS and what not, I linked a thread which made by Wiz in the earlier days explaining that paladin IS the DPS class of the tank choices, but significantly lower than true melee DPS)
Back to turning Yaulp 4 into haste topic -
1.) Add V2 haste component into Yaulp 4 (V2 as in reference to the bard V2 song haste which is group only) a 10% stackable haste with spell (V1) & bard song raidwide (V3) that is for GROUP only. It is but a slight improvement of DPS for a single paladin, but when it is used in group, it contributes a reasonable amount to a single group's overall DPS. This will also increase the desire of having more than 1 paladin on raid encounters when planning a pure melee group.
2.) Another option is to consider completely changing an existing spell that's within a Paladin's spell arsenal into this V2 overhaste effect. (such as, flame of light)
3.) If changing Yaulp 4 into an overhaste. clerics would be thinking - what of Yaulp 5 and 6, a 75% and 100% haste respectively?
They remain unchanged, as to give cleric an option to choose between Yaulp 4 and 6 depending on situation. Such as melee cleric would not sacrifice Yaulp 5 or 6 when he has no other spell haste already cast on himself, but would throw in the Yaulp 4 if he already had a spell haste. Making Yaulp 4 and 5 or 6 overwrites each others to mitigate the possible abuse.
Would this be a reasonable and doable option?
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
So, "Paladins shouldn't be the best DPS tanks anymore" is the base of your argument against this thread?
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
They never were Tyrone. They have never been the best DPS tanks if you're including both melee and spell DPS. Almost their entire spell set is defensive. The base classes retain their semblance of balance from live. Think of the class as being cut in to three pieces. Tanking, melee DPS, and spells.
Tanking and melee DPS are comparable for shadowknights and paladins (warriors I would have to see some parses) but you can not actively compare spell balance in terms of DPS. In this sense paladins and shadowknights mirror each other, a paladins ability to heal is supposed to reflect a shadowknight's ability to do damage in the general sense. If you increase a paladins DPS to the point where he can effectively out damage a shadowknight's sum DPS while still retaining his healing ability then he has become overpowered in comparison.