Paladin DPS

[stope21]

Words

You keep saying how important pallies are, yet you refuse to give examples when they are absolutely needed.

You repeatedly say how good our AE agro is, and how that makes pallies so incredibly good. Nobody here is requesting for paladins to receive more agro. Nor does this thread have anything to do with agro. Both sks and paladins have their niche for agro.

If you want a break down of key characteristics of tanks, here you go:
Warriors are by FAR the best tanks, woldaff tanks considerably better than ringo, despite ringo having:
1)a charm that costs 700kpp more
2)better gear
3)more diety spec
4)a better race
5)Other misc things that I do not need to continue to mention.
Ontop of that, his class has the potential to dps better than I do.

SK's can pull, tank better, have unresistable agro and are also do more dps

Paladins are left being the crappiest tanks, the crappiest dps. The only things we really have going for us is group HoTs and AE agro.

I can list more/more significant encounters that unresistable agro is key than encounters where AE agro is key. Don't forget SK's also have the ability to shout of agony and warriors get area taunt to assist them in their brief needs of AE agro. On raids, pally AE agro is not required, it is a convenience factor and inferior to the agroing abilities of an sk.

Yes, I know this list isnt fully inclusive as some people are going to say "OMG YOU MISSED SOME ABILITIES." Note again, where I stated, "key characteristics of tanks."

Actually, I will go ahead and answer your group card response in advance (and for the 3rd time) as I have noted a series of circular reasoning in your posts. My suggestion is something that will not be easily utilizable in groups. For example a stance that drains stamina and reduces tanking ability while active. This will pretty much obsolete it for groups as the paladin is going to usually be the one and only tank in a group.

 

[Gregor]

There are fights where you need a tank that can generate unresistable hate or your fubar.

As for pallies this is how I see it on a raid.

Can we do it w/o one? Yeah recently we have been forced to. Would it have been much much easier with one there? Absolutly 110% it would be easier on everyone.

I think I would rather have one pally then be forced to have a bunch of extra warriors or people who can tank something when the shit hits the fan. One pally can do all that in an instant. Or you can have 2 or 3 extra tanks trying to be one pally. All that does is sacrifice either dps or healers.

One pally on a raid is a valuable tool for the raid force. Yeah you can gimp along w/o one.. But why would anyone want to do that if they had a choice?

And I have to disagree with Ardenn disagreeing with me. You can gimp along on most of those fights with added tanks, or if you allready know the strat. However there are fights where you absolutly need an sk or your doomed to keep zoning to your bind point.

Alot of the fights I have seen up to well will require you to need an sk more then a pally. But like I said earlier why gimp along when you can just take a pally which makes suprise add control something simple instead of hectic.

 

[Miffy]

My current tier = your current tier, and we are currently dealing with the issue of not having an active paladin. I can assure you that it does indeed make life more difficult. If the number of encounters that require a paladin go down over the tiering, its only because there are less fights per tier as you move up.

But how much of this problem would be alieviated by having an extra equally geared shadowknight? It is not just that the number of paladin centric encounters go down but the encounters where a Shadow Knight is an absolute must increae from 0 to 2-3.

Let's be clear, I have no problem with this as long as a paladin can still be useful in a raid ie. deal more dps.

 

[neonovas]

I have no problem with this as long as a paladin can still be useful in a raid ie. deal more dps.

You make it sound as if paladins aren't useful because they do crap dps at raids.

 

[Gregor]

Pally's are still very valueable on raids Miffy. I can see the point you guys are trying to make about pally's. Maybe there is another solution besides DPS?

Miffy let's say your fighting something at it's intended tier. At that level there are fights designed for pally's. Once you get more gear and have the strat down those fights are not so pally dependant.

On the other hand there are some fights of roughtly an equal number that you will be required to have an SK to win. Unless your absolutly so far beyond the gear level its not funny. Even then dont think all that rot loot will be easy to get. There is a reason to need an sk on those encounters and thats their un resistable hate.

It would be nice to figure out something for the pally class. I'm not exactly convinced it's DPS but something would be nice. Cause it's kinda weaksauce to be required to have an sk on some fights, and then doing the Pally intended fights and almost not being required to have one. It simply makes it go smoother is all.

If it's not DPS for thier agro then maybe some kind of unresistable aoe hate. It doesn't have to be huge sence the backup tanks usually peal the stuff off from the pally once he gets initial agro.

 

[Worelan]

... because they do crap dps at raids.

That's the point of this thread...

 

[neonovas]

Thats the point of this thread...

i was being sarcastic. I mean seriously, if they buff their dps to do more than sk/war and guess what? they're still a tank and will still do crap dps! Not to mention even with crap dps they are still useful because they can Aux tank, off tank, a nice buff, group hots, self heals, LoH, etc, just like SK/WAR can do stuff other than tank and do shitty dps.

edit: I'm not trying to say that they should or should not have their damage buffed. Just that even in their current state they ARE useful. I dont think miffy meant to say that they weren't, thats just how it looked to me.

 

[Gregor]

they're still a tank and will still do crap dps! Not to mention even with crap dps they are still useful because they can Aux tank, off tank, a nice buff, group hots, self heals, LoH, etc, just like SK/WAR can do stuff other than tank and do shitty dps.

This is the truth.

 

[Salarus]

Hi, if you're INSISTING on derailing the fucking thread.

SK's can pull. Count the number of zones you need a puller for.

Also, i'm not 100% but i'm pretty sure higher dps = better aux tanking. Which is pretty much a pallies #1 role on raids.

 

[stope21]

i was being sarcastic. I mean seriously, if they buff their dps to do more than sk/war and guess what? they're still a tank and will still do crap dps! Not to mention even with crap dps they are still useful because they can Aux tank, off tank, a nice buff, group hots, self heals, LoH, etc, just like SK/WAR can do stuff other than tank and do shitty dps.

edit: I'm not trying to say that they should or should not have their damage buffed. Just that even in their current state they ARE useful. I dont think miffy meant to say that they weren't, thats just how it looked to me.

Every class will be useful in SoD raids until you get to sanctum. This is because of the +10% chance of 1 loot bonus per unique class after 10.

The way it works is for 15 unique classes you get a 50% chance to receive an additional loot.
14 classes = 40%
13 classes = 30%
12 = 20
11 = 10
10 = 0

At least this is my understanding, feel free to correct me if im wrong .

Anyways, this is about tank balance on raids. Currently paladins offer far less "necessity/impact on a raid" than the other 2 tanks do. Thus the reason for this thread, along with a nice little suggestion about how to fix the class while staying within reasonable parameters and not crossing into other classes territory.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

What was the other part, decreasing tanking ability? because that just went in.

Yes, that was it, and no, it did not. The stance was overpowered. Plain and simple. That was a step taken to alleviate the blatantly overpowered stance, not an adjustment to bring paladins in line to where The Vision for them is.

Stop making wild assumptions based on information you dont have and couldnt know.

 

[Severien]

Hi, if you're INSISTING on derailing the fucking thread.

SK's can pull. Count the number of zones you need a puller for.

Also, i'm not 100% but i'm pretty sure higher dps = better aux tanking. Which is pretty much a pallies #1 role on raids.

You keep saying that SKS can pull over and over and over again like it contributes something to whatever thread you're saying it in. Yes, they can pull, but in group scenarios this is less useful than you might think it is because you can't wallsplit when you're the tank and stand/feign can be a slow process. As for raids, SKs rarely do more than assist pull for monks (with a nod to Volkov for being an exception). On the other side of the coin, paladins get a zone that is almost their own personal playground (hello HHK) and they smash on anything dealing with undead (hello Cata), as well as being a far preferable choice for zones with lots of easy mobs like Rust and RSM. So there's your de-rail, since you wanted one.

Also, you're wrong about the aux tanking, how good you are for aux tanking is based on how much AC you have, which is why its nice to keep a low h2h skill (or carry Ible Gull's around) on a tank so you can aux certain mobs without worry of ripostes.

 

[Gregor]

Also, i'm not 100% but i'm pretty sure higher dps = better aux tanking. Which is pretty much a pallies #1 role on raids.

Aux tanking its based of AC bro not DPS. DPS would help but honestly even if they get a slight dps boost it's not going to make a whole hell of alot of difference in groups or raids. It would only help while soloing and even then it would be such a small boost I doubt it would be better then their DS.

Thats why I'm not convinced DPS is the best route. Perhaps something different would help their role as an aoe grabbing machine who brings utility and other cool things to the raid allready.

 

[Kirin Folken]

Careful, if you add anything to the paladins tanking abilites you again may threaten SK and War tanking. Doing so puts us right back at pre-nerf /s 4.

Incresed DPS is a roll that would not threaten any of the other tanks (or other classes for that matter) and provides Paladins something more to do on raids, or when another tank is present when AoEing is not needed or a option.

I'm no talking about high DPS ether, no one wants to see paladins suddenly putting out more DPS then a ranger or monk. But to put out more DPS then Sks and Wars.

 

[Notpit]

I am a patient man and so am not asking for anything now. But I think it would be great in the near future to read what "The Vision", as understood by the devs, is for Paladins and the other tank classes.

 

[Gregor]

I would agree to give them a slight boost to DPS but really it's going to be small just to bring them up to average with the other two tanks. Still though thats not a very big boost.

Pally's are the king of what they do and bring to raids or groups allready.

If nothing else maybe request a new spell or tome that would come out in the big update of Ikisith. It seems like they will get around to asking us for ideas on pally tomes soon anyways. Just give your weeks worth of ideas and input then. Who knows maybe Wold will do that next due to the recent changes. I can't call it a nerf cause it was really over powering.

 

[Daelius]

One place where paladins are lacking (on non-undead mobs) is spell damage.

One idea i had was that paladins could have access to the smite line of spells that a cleric has. Of course it would be to a lesser scale than clerics, but having an actual option to do some real single-target spell damage would be a way to add dps to paladins without really infringing on the roles of others.

 

[Miffy]

Yes, that was it, and no, it did not. The stance was overpowered. Plain and simple. That was a step taken to alleviate the blatantly overpowered stance, not an adjustment to bring paladins in line to where The Vision for them is.

Stop making wild assumptions based on information you dont have and couldnt know.

I'm sorry, I was not making any assumptions I just really had no idea what you were referring to as the other part. I completely agree that the stance was overpowered and the change was warranted. Perhaps the real problem is that players who play other classes need to understand this change from a paladin's perspective. There are many things I could tank before that I no longer can, raid mobs especially. I am now clearly the third choice of the three tanks when it comes to tanking. And you are right I have no idea what the plan is for paladins I just feel very discouraged to find myself suddenly a much much worse tank (because I was overpowered before and I understand this) and now I am left wondering what can I bring to a raid now in place of strong tanking? I don't presume to know more than the staff and I am very much looking forward to what you folks come up with as more final balances for the three tanks. Because I think the recent agro and warrior stance changes were really right on, and I guess I should just be patient and confident that behind the scenes everything is being balanced out.

 

[stope21]

I don't think its what you can bring to raids. Rather, I think its bringing as much as a warrior or sk has to offer. Every class offers something, but some on average more than others.

A large part of the reason I didn't bring this up before is paladins were good tanks and I couldn't reasonable ask for my class to be boosted further.

Now that warriors got boosted and paladins simultaneously got nerfed, paladins were left with quite a bit of room for improvement as they are behind both sk/warrior in terms of what we have to offer a raid.

Anyways, hoping things will be fixed with ikisith spells I feel is a bad approach. Not every paladin may have the ability to obtain the spells/tomes that balance out the class. Newly/low teir paladins will still be behind the newly 65 warrior/sk. Then they'll to raid/quest/whatever it takes to get the spells just to catch up? Unless the spell(s) is/are easily obtainable or store bought (and actually provide this balance), I just don't think this would be fair to the paladins who may not have access to the things that balance them. Not only that, but ikisith is some unknown, undisclosed time away. I don't think its fair for them to go imbalanced for so long.

I am also very interested in balance across teirs. Not just at the high end, or mid-high end. The only experience I have with sk's/pallies/warriors that has applicable values have been from mid/high end characters. Maybe things are about right for the lower teirs? This was one thing that we "as the public" have no knowledge of being looked into by the devs. The parses that were provided in the prior change were purely from high end chars with "the best possible gear for every slot." I would hope that more consideration is given than just looking at one section of the population and then changes are made for the entire population.

Anyways, I'd really like it if we forget about what changes previously went in to warriors and paladins. Instead, I hope we can stay focused on where paladins are now and if this is the right spot for them. It seems many people, including people who play warriors and sk's, agree with me that paladins are lacking in terms of what they can provide a raid. Some parses have been provided. I don't think they're perfect, but we all know it didn't take perfect parses before to generate changes. This indicates to me at the least that they may need something to bring them up to par. It would be really nice if a dev could chime in here, as I think this thread has more than covered all the points this topic is composed of.

 

[Vartenaal]

miffy, after checking out your Tank parse thread i have to say, you are in serious need of a visit to

here they teach you all about tanking and generating agro, the only downside is that this aggro school is in Le France. if youre casting a only a blind once every 30 seconds, then you should really rethink your play style mate.

but anyway, i also can think of at least 3 encounters tier 7+ that are made a lot EASIER by having a paladin, but their role can be easily filled in by an sk/monk duo working together. a skilled SK can EASILY keep agro on at least 4 mobs, hell i can do it with divine stun and ST blind, its harder cause of resists though. whereas i can think of one encounter where you absolutely MUST have an SK.

also about this unresistable SK agro - yes, its nice, but apart from the large worms in PoN i personally have never had much problem keeping agro (except times when Meister decides that he wants to nuke the planet and then become the main tank for a split second before being totally obliterated).

paladins dont need a HUGE boost in dps, maybe like 7-10% imo.

personally the changes id like to see put in is:
-double the time /s 4 lasts
-increase the time on /s 5 as stope suggested or put in a new dps stance instead of /s 7 as its completely useless, draining stamina even faster than /s 4.