Paladin agro (yes everyone knows it's horrible)

Seems like pally aggro is universally agreed upon as an issue and there are a number of simple, well-liked ideas to fix it so I don't see why it would take that much dev time to address.
 
Not sure why pally agro hasn't been fixed - if it's because the devs haven't gotten around to it or they disagree with the playerbase and think it's fine. Either way, I would say that parses may help to tell the tale. See how much agro a paladin generates in a T11 group vs a T5 group. I think you'll see a vast difference in that paladin agro doesn't scale well to keep up with DPS. Also check parses vs boss mobs because they are usually decently resistant to paladin spells and cannot be stunned. Part of the reason we have to cast so much is that our spells get resisted a lot, therefore we lose time in melee dpsing which is also lost agro. For starters I think a good solution is to make blinds unresistable to be able to match the other tank classes since their main agro generation methods are u resistable. At the same time this may help to restore paladins as being the lead AE tank as intended. I do not believe doing this would or could make paladins OP, I think it may help to quell a big part of the issue at hand. This is a very simple and fast change; we could try out and reevaluate in a few months.
 
I would have to agree that unresistable blinds is the #1 fix that NEEDS to happen. MR mobs, lost time to recasting, and losing AoE aggro to someone picking their nose just poops all over tanking in general.

#2 would definitely be heal aggro. It does not make sense that heals produce no aggro. If nothing else self heals should generate aggro as a parallel to the other knight's (SK) form of self healing:

Taps
-some damage/aggro
-low healing
-no cooldown

Self heals
-no damage/aggro
-medium healing
-long CD

Seem kind of unbalanced? Just a moderate amount of unresistable aggro would alleviate (combined with unresistable blinds) a massive amount of paladin suckage AND make paladins the legitimate kings of AoE again.
 
seems like the main problem is that they dont want paladin healing agro to be able to agro unlimited mobs.. so maybe instead of adding the agro to the heal give paladins an aa or tome of both that cause thier heals to "proc" a pbaoe cone blind that has a short range and a 360 degree cone?
 
mechkl said:
seems like the main problem is that they dont want paladin healing agro to be able to agro unlimited mobs.. so maybe instead of adding the agro to the heal give paladins an aa or tome of both that cause thier heals to "proc" a pbaoe cone blind that has a short range and a 360 degree cone?
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I feel like adding new or more AA/Tomes is not the answer.
 
I may not be seeing everything here but:

Blinding Light PAL (55):
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Blindness
Slot 2: Decrease ATK by 5

Wave of Light PAL (62):
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Blindness
Slot 2: Decrease ATK by 5

Gleam of Light PAL (35):
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Blindness
Slot 2: Decrease ATK by 5

The blinds really do nothing to the monsters (For real, 5 ATK isn't a substantial thing). I am not sure what is really hidden behind the effect: Blindness but I am sure it is nothing impressive. The spells themselves do nothing additional to the mobs, and serve only to generate aggro. I dont see why it's such an issue to bump them up a bit. Hell I would accept them removing the decrease ATK portion (heavens no!) if it meant.

I get that SKs get an unresistable aggro generator. SKs and Paladins are supposed to be different. However, really the only difference between the two could be spell descriptions. Terrors and Blinds could essentially do the exact same thing, only difference being spell name and written effect.

What's the real difference between a Cleric's Archon Hammer spell line and a life tap? Both do dmg. Both heal the caster (or in Cleric's case just someone/ whole group). Only thing is the way the spell is named and description of it.

[Edit]
I didnt end that well. Basically I am saying, essentially make blinds an AoE SK Terror with Paladin-like spell names and descriptions. Unresistable and dependable aggro.
 
Something I wanted to add, it doesn't seem like the current set up is "as intended". The single blind / aoe / single overwrite is a nifty trick the players have found out - I assume it wasn't set up to work like that at first. A lot of what we (pallies) do seems like a reaction to the place we've been put in. The game has moved on from the place it was at when the heal nerf was put in...

I think there are some solid ideas in this thread. Just wanted to add another voice for Paladin Justice. Maybe we should start a signed petition.
 
Just a thought but maybe us pallys should talk ingame just to see how diffent we play the class if any at all im not opposed to talking with other's in my class to see how we play and how any and all of us could better play it. I know im not perfect and im sure we could all take advice from each other as well. I know other class's on the sever do this and im not sure if we do or maybe im just not part of the loop

Kraizik - Leader of Prophecy
 
Vitali said:
The blinds really do nothing to the monsters (For real, 5 ATK isn't a substantial thing). I am not sure what is really hidden behind the effect: Blindness but I am sure it is nothing impressive.
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I seem to recall reading years and years ago from a dev post that the attack debuff (any amount) is actually what gives the aggro, and I think it was +690
 
Slayer90 said:
Just a thought but maybe us pallys should talk ingame just to see how diffent we play the class if any at all im not opposed to talking with other's in my class to see how we play and how any and all of us could better play it. I know im not perfect and im sure we could all take advice from each other as well. I know other class's on the sever do this and im not sure if we do or maybe im just not part of the loop

Kraizik - Leader of Prophecy
Click to expand...

Its not that paladins dont push buttons well, its the buttons they push that dont do well
 
Vitali said:
I get that SKs get an unresistable aggro generator. SKs and Paladins are supposed to be different. However, really the only difference between the two could be spell descriptions. Terrors and Blinds could essentially do the exact same thing, only difference being spell name and written effect.

What's the real difference between a Cleric's Archon Hammer spell line and a life tap? Both do dmg. Both heal the caster (or in Cleric's case just someone/ whole group). Only thing is the way the spell is named and description of it.
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Agreed. Knights could do roughly the same thing, with respect to individual strengths, just in their own way which is flavor more than mechanics. Making blinds unresistable in a world of foelocks and terrors is just fair, and honest, and truth, and [eagle sours past a field of flags].

Changing self heals to resemble an Archon's Hammer line would help with Paladin lackluster dps (help, not fix) and carve out the niche that our Murk spell exists in. It would also alleviate "concerns" people have about giving Paladins the ability to produce small amounts of aggro on unlimited mobs on a 30-300 second cooldown if self heals generated aggro. I think this suggestion cropped up in the last (or two times ago, maybe six or seven though) "fix paladins please" thread and it is a good one!

Random idea looking at my spellbook: Valor of Enthann is about the most useless spell ever. It wasn't doing too well before, but with buff NPCs it is really bad. Perhaps it could be changed to a small 5-10% Slot3 haste (overhaste, like Boon of Garou) to help with abysmal Pally dps at the cost of precious precious buffslot?


TLDR; a bunch of things that have already been said in this, and a half dozen other, paladin threads by myself and others ad infinitum
 
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donfolstar3 said:
Agreed. Knights could do roughly the same thing, with respect to individual strengths, just in their own way which is flavor more than mechanics. Making blinds unresistable in a world of foelocks and terrors is just fair, and honest, and truth, and [eagle sours past a field of flags].

Changing self heals to resemble an Archon's Hammer line would help with Paladin lackluster dps (help, not fix) and carve out the niche that our Murk spell exists in. It would also alleviate "concerns" people have about giving Paladins the ability to produce small amounts of aggro on unlimited mobs on a 30-300 second cooldown if self heals generated aggro. I think this suggestion cropped up in the last (or two times ago, maybe six or seven though) "fix paladins please" thread and it is a good one!

Random idea looking at my spellbook: Valor of Enthann is about the most useless spell ever. It wasn't doing too well before, but with buff NPCs it is really bad. Perhaps it could be changed to a small 5-10% Slot3 haste (overhaste, like Boon of Garou) to help with abysmal Pally dps at the cost of precious precious buffslot?


TLDR; a bunch of things that have already been said in this, and a half dozen other, paladin threads by myself and others ad infinitum
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While my post is off topic, I would like to agree that Valor of Enthann has limited uses. That said, it is really nice to be able to cast haste when you need and can't get it elsewhere. I think the over haste idea could be a neat trick for indoors (everyone should have the outdoor only clicky overhaste...)

Since you brought up the murk spell: 2k mana per cast is stupid high. Considering all the negative stats stuff of the spell, the absurdly long cast/recast time, and the short duration, I think the mana cost should be cut in half. I mean, I use the spell in some times, but my god 2000 mana every 12 minutes is a fucking ton of mana!
 
Daffie said:
Since you brought up the murk spell: 2k mana per cast is stupid high. Considering all the negative stats stuff of the spell, the absurdly long cast/recast time, and the short duration, I think the mana cost should be cut in half. I mean, I use the spell in some times, but my god 2000 mana every 12 minutes is a fucking ton of mana!
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Altuna's Conduit is indicative of much that is wrong with Paladins. At one point the spell was OP so everyone clamored that Paladins are OP and they got the nerf bat for it. The spell went through a series of changes and ultimately ended up as a situationally ok spell with a shitstorm downside. Those last two lines have happened more than once and left the class where it is.

The mana cost is crazy high, but the duration is what gets me. Chances are if you're using Althuna's Conduit you are going to be using it for a while (grinding with another tank, sort of raid healer, etc...) so recasts aren't just a mana drain but pointlessly annoying to boot, kind of like Necro Lich line.
 
donfolstar3 said:
Altuna's Conduit is indicative of much that is wrong with Paladins. At one point the spell was OP so everyone clamored that Paladins are OP and they got the nerf bat for it. The spell went through a series of changes and ultimately ended up as a situationally ok spell with a shitstorm downside. Those last two lines have happened more than once and left the class where it is.

The mana cost is crazy high, but the duration is what gets me. Chances are if you're using Althuna's Conduit you are going to be using it for a while (grinding with another tank, sort of raid healer, etc...) so recasts aren't just a mana drain but pointlessly annoying to boot, kind of like Necro Lich line.
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I honestly thought I was the only person that thought this. Thanks for proving I am not crazy.
 
Daffie said:
I honestly thought I was the only person that thought this. Thanks for proving I am not crazy.
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Can we stick to trying to get aggro fixed and stop talking about spells you guys clearly don't understand the benefits of.

Thanks.
-A guy that loves Althuna's Conduit.
 
keep paladin agro abysmal-ish make blinds "aoe terrors" sk are better dps and single target tankers....paladins get to be crap dps and room wide tankers.... sounds like a fair trade i guess?
 
Marza said:
I have no idea why threat was removed from paladin heals. Dumb
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Because if you allow Paladins to generate low to moderate amounts of aggro through healing they would be some kind of AoE tanks who would in turn have to work for single target aggro. It is not like that is the stated role of the class or ever was or anything.

You people are all crazy. Paladins are the best. I am so confident that Paladins are the best that staff should offer Paladins the option to class change just to show how nobody would. That would really show everyone the true state of the class!
 
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