Paladin agro (yes everyone knows it's horrible)
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Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
To get back on topic, another thought to add some agro assistance is to make blinds so that the same one can be chained for agro instead of needing to overwrite or wait for it to run.
This would make it so single target blinds are for single target agro, and AE blinds are for AE agro. Right now, as stated previously, to agro we are casting single target blind, then AE blind, then single target blind again, even on solo mobs.
This would make it so single target blinds are for single target agro, and AE blinds are for AE agro. Right now, as stated previously, to agro we are casting single target blind, then AE blind, then single target blind again, even on solo mobs.
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
The only time the stun is noticeable, is when tagging, because the mob will actually stay in place after it lands, or if its moving it will do that weird running bug and then reset back to the spot it gets stunned at. However, Divine Stun does not cause a knockback similar to the spell line of stuns that we get so even if it were to work, it is not easily proven to be noticeable (in game) due to the very short duration of the stun. I have also tested this via looking at logs but Divine Stun seems to be almost entirely mitigated to 0sec in combat and not affected by the normal "refresh" for other stun's mitigation. Regardless, the aggro is so menial it does not matter in the least bit that you cast it at all. One autoattack from a melee will result in them pulling aggro.
Any argument re: this could very easily be cleared up by someone on staff though, if they were willing to divulge the information.
Now this I can agree with but saying divine stun never works is wrong ><. Thank you obsecnitor for not saying that Diving Stun does "nothing" when in fact it clearly does. Also im not sure why any one would TAG with Divine stun instead of waiting for mob to get on pally/MT and then stun it to give healers a little slack, at start of any and every battle the 1second - 1.5 second stun deley you get from the intial use of Divine stun is enough for a chance to get the mob slowed and the tank not getting smashed on those hard hitters.
I will continue to test my Divine stun to see the exact time of the POSSIBILITY of the stun to reset and actually be USED to stun the mob.
Divine Stun might as well be a jolt; it does shit for aggro. I recall testing Divine Stun during Cyzaine's hate-generation event. It only has uses for interrupting a light blue mob from casting or picking up thaz elementals while spell gems are greyed out. In combat, its about as useful as taunt. Taunt does nothing. Maybe taunt can be changed to help paladin aggro.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
In the immortal word of Porkins (seriously Lucas, you named the fat guy Porkins?) we need to "stay on target".
Bango had the best serious series of suggestions so here they are for anyone to lazy to find them and why they are great:
Add aggro back to (at the very least) self heals.
WHY: Healing would piss mobs off, nuff said. Well, that and it balances against lifetaps which give less healing but provide aggro AND dps.
Create a new Yaulp spell line akin to Runic 2.
WHY: Why wouldn't the Paladin yaulp line have some type of aggro component? Oh, because they are lazy copy and paste Cleric spells? Well that is crap and everyone knows it. Not to belabor balancing against the only other Knight class too much, but their voice/visage line last a lot longer (mana) and can be cast on others (utility).
Make blinds un-resistable.
WHY: "This is a no-brainer to me. I can't think of any reasons why Paladins should not have a consistent and effective way to maintain aggro on magic resistant/immune mobs."
Tweak flame of light.
WHY: Flame of light is "fine", it just desperately needs an upgrade. On a related note, Divine Stun is already unresistable and severely lacking in overall effect. 500 hate? Double flame of light and still well below what SK terrors do?
Bango had the best serious series of suggestions so here they are for anyone to lazy to find them and why they are great:
Add aggro back to (at the very least) self heals.
WHY: Healing would piss mobs off, nuff said. Well, that and it balances against lifetaps which give less healing but provide aggro AND dps.
Create a new Yaulp spell line akin to Runic 2.
WHY: Why wouldn't the Paladin yaulp line have some type of aggro component? Oh, because they are lazy copy and paste Cleric spells? Well that is crap and everyone knows it. Not to belabor balancing against the only other Knight class too much, but their voice/visage line last a lot longer (mana) and can be cast on others (utility).
Make blinds un-resistable.
WHY: "This is a no-brainer to me. I can't think of any reasons why Paladins should not have a consistent and effective way to maintain aggro on magic resistant/immune mobs."
Tweak flame of light.
WHY: Flame of light is "fine", it just desperately needs an upgrade. On a related note, Divine Stun is already unresistable and severely lacking in overall effect. 500 hate? Double flame of light and still well below what SK terrors do?
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No worse than the black dude in Top Gun being called Sundown...
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
Because you can tag one mob with Divine Stun, and while it is momentarily stunned tag another mob with blind, by the time the first mob is unstunned and running at you your spell gems have refreshed and you can blind it as well, having actual aggro on both before they reach the group.
You keep bringing up the point of saying that you use DS on a mob in combat and in melee range but not once in my tens of thousands of casts of DS have I noticed it actually stun a mob and prevent melee rounds. Also, stuns generate aggro. The fact that this generates no aggro in combat leads me to believe that it also does not stun anything at all when in combat. Unless of course Divine Stun is coded differently from literally every other stun that exists in the game.
We are getting off topic, lets consider this a resolved issue and all agree that Divine Stun is only useful in scenarios where there are abilities/spells that can be interrupted, or you are tagging multiple mobs.
then maybe you should look closer and you the one who keeps bringit it back up... and no I wont agree when I have seen it usefull other then double tagging.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Mash the same button repeatedly? Overwriting blinds adds some small degree of skill and technique to tanking that is a welcome addition to me, but maybe I am in the minority there. Making blinds unresistable for general aggro and simplifying overwriting might be a better solution, as a resisted Wave of Light kind of screws aggro production on a 25 second cooldown (IF overwriting works how I think it does- that the spell has to land- I could be mistaken). And of course magic resistant/immune mobs. F those guys.
I am not sure what possesses a man to adamantly defend a sub-par AA in the face of several of the best Paladins on the server. Divine Stun is a disappointing AA investment and could probably use a redo/boost if staff is serious about addressing Paladin aggro issues.
Overwriting your blinds to build aggro by casting three spells in succession doesn't take skill unless you're doing it on a touch pad while eating nachos in a bathtub. It does take skill to actually use self heals while tanking a mob on a raid. The utility of self heals is greatly diminished to almost nothing when your paladin is the main tank on a mob. This statement applies mainly to Tier 10 content and up. Aggro on self-heals might restore our utility, survivability, and allow greater DPS output from bad rogues and wiznerds.
To answer your question yes, wave of light needs to land to be able to overwrite. The problem is wave of light is resisted so often that we are not able to hold agro required at the T10+ tiers.
Making blinds unresistable should help regain some of the agro and makes sense to do as the other tanks' agro are unresistable. This coupled with self heal agro is a move in The right direction
Further, lowering the reuse timer on wave of light will also help, especially to restore us as the best AE tank. What about also removing the 6 target maximum from AE blind and stun?
Adding proper stun agro to divine stun is also another possibility, to make it actually have a use.
Devs please help. We have suffered enough. Thank you.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
donfolstar3 said:
I'd like to point out that we should be listening to paladin of all tiers to gain a grasp of the current state, not just the guys that have been end game for the last 3+ years. (Example: my early in the thread point by point post and Bango's are pretty similar... 2 totally different tiered players seeing basically eye to eye.) That said, weight should be given to different experience levels. To be clear though, I do totally agree with the second sentence of your post... For the most part we all seem to agree on the types of things that would help...
I don't agree that it takes any more skill to /cast 1, /cast 2, /cast 1 than it does to /cast 1, /cast 1, /cast 1. Though I do sort of see what you are saying, but please here me out for a second.
Right now my spells set generally looks something like the following:
1. DD Heal
2. Self Heal
3. Single Target Blind
4. AE Blind
5. Single Target Stun
6. AE Stun
7. Flame of Light (which imo should cast at double the speed it does now...)
8. Group HoT
(I'm sure guys with Runic 2 have a little different setup.)
Call me crazy, but if blind spells overwrote themselves (for full agro every time) I could have some utility spell slots depending on need. Additionally, we would see mana savings for not having to cast AE blind on single targets (80 mana per cast vs. 145 mana per cast), and we could potentially drop the use of single target push stun that is the bane of melee everywhere.
1. DD Heal
2. Self Heal
3. Single Target Blind
4. AE Blind
5. UTILITY
6. AE Stun
7. UTILITY
8. Group HoT
tl;dr - Changing blinds to allowed self overwrites at full agro gives us back some utility by opening spell slots and conserving mana. Bundle that with the already suggested cool down tweaks, resist tweaks, and healing/AA agro tweaks and we will be some in the range of where we should be.