Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
Hardmode version of The Custodian activates at 20% if there's a person that has done the sword-thrusting thing and not beaten it. Turning off hardmode is as easy/hard as having that person not in the raid and also not aggroed.
Non-non-item nerf thread
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
Hardmode version of The Custodian activates at 20% if there's a person that has done the sword-thrusting thing and not beaten it. Turning off hardmode is as easy/hard as having that person not in the raid and also not aggroed.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Part of what makes the robe rare and unattainable by most people is the fact that everyone wants it. If you reduce it to a tank/maybemeeledps item, then suddenly half as many people want it and thus it is twice as accessible to all of them. The very nature of its rarity and high desirability by everyone is what makes it a limited resource that everyone simply cant get. Also the fact that this is how it was designed and intended and a number of people spent very significant amounts of time trying to obtain it for this reason should be worth something. It really wasn't breaking the game as it was, casters got CSI10 in trade for no other good caster stats, no proc, none of the other goodies that robes tend to provide. It has always been a stronger item for a tank irregardless, but it should remain desirable for casters. I really think just giving it back CSI10 is appropriate, its not THAT powerful, I always used other robes with procs and whatnot over it situationally, but if the reason to not have CSI10 is simply that it doesn't fit the spreadsheet of perfect steady boring item progression thats lame. If it just has CSI9, it needs something else to be comparable to the tier and rarity and difficulty, compare to rujik BP. There are a lot of items that give a high level focus before they are generally available, and it doesnt break anything. an extra 2% spell haste is a fair trade for the lack of stats and extreme difficulty. In this case you can also throw back on the negative resists so it retains its old feel of gaining something powerful at a cost, just without the cool run fast mode.(which was amazingly fun and in and of itself is a giant nerf considering how movement dependant all the endgame fights are.
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I do not think that the robe is going to be seeing any major changes. I would have liked to give it CSI9 but I was given the veto on that. On its own it is still amazing for tanks and very good for melee and at least usable (depending on what you want) for casters. Eclipse is obviously better for priests and it was supposed to be all along.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Wow... That's baffling. Thanks for making awesome content Marza and Zaela. I had a lot of fun in your zones/encounters.
My best item, that I spent more time trying to obtain than Final Vah Back is now worse than a common drop two tiers lower. I honestly sometimes wonder if certain people actually *want* the server to die (or maybe they just enjoy dicking-over people they don't like).
I've had my items or character nerfed countless times, and usually it makes sense, or I can at least understand what the intent is... but this is just completely absurd, and pretty much crushes the lingering desire I had to play SoD.
Giving a class powers that was not intended/available thrue items, is a problem, and it was something SoD was doing alot (and still does, Jyre for example).
It does make it fun to play a class with the ability to do something that was not really its role.
Imo gate clickers are in the same category, but all it does it shorten "down time", it doesnt help win a hard fight.
One spell can also redefine a class.
Like a Necromancer with out his Archaic, is a bad Necromancer. His primary role is DPS, and he probably gets upwards of 50% of his DPS from his Archaic (in a group where mobs dies fast, he would for sure do twice the dps of a necro with out Archaic).
Druids with R2 is a whole other Druid than one with out.
If Shaman R1 was worth casting, deff a different class too.
Beastlords with R1 also brings a whole different level of DPS.
Tomes, you could say the same about tomes too.
Like the Mage one that makes their pet goes insane with 12k hits or what ever that was all about.
Can't really think of any other insane tomes, perhaps bards Blademaster's Rhythm, 10% chance of 8 extra swings, seems like a 80% melee dps increase to me (in 10 swings, would proc once, and do 18 attack and not 10, 80% more melee dps. Usually Bards do atleast 50% dps with their songs though.).
Nerfing healers ability to DPS thrue items, is probably the most obvious of these "1 item/spell/tome that change the class completely" problems, but its not the only one, not at all.
It does make it fun to play a class with the ability to do something that was not really its role.
Imo gate clickers are in the same category, but all it does it shorten "down time", it doesnt help win a hard fight.
One spell can also redefine a class.
Like a Necromancer with out his Archaic, is a bad Necromancer. His primary role is DPS, and he probably gets upwards of 50% of his DPS from his Archaic (in a group where mobs dies fast, he would for sure do twice the dps of a necro with out Archaic).
Druids with R2 is a whole other Druid than one with out.
If Shaman R1 was worth casting, deff a different class too.
Beastlords with R1 also brings a whole different level of DPS.
Tomes, you could say the same about tomes too.
Like the Mage one that makes their pet goes insane with 12k hits or what ever that was all about.
Can't really think of any other insane tomes, perhaps bards Blademaster's Rhythm, 10% chance of 8 extra swings, seems like a 80% melee dps increase to me (in 10 swings, would proc once, and do 18 attack and not 10, 80% more melee dps. Usually Bards do atleast 50% dps with their songs though.).
Nerfing healers ability to DPS thrue items, is probably the most obvious of these "1 item/spell/tome that change the class completely" problems, but its not the only one, not at all.
Kedrin
Dalayan Pious Diety
i just wish the illusion didnt make me a human i rerolled my human monk into lleoc because i hate how human monks fight.
Yes it would be cool if it still turned you into a darkelf
I guess no one involved can be bothered to mention anything about this, but from what I heard: the intention was to remove the ATK but not the overhaste but miscommunication and overzealousness led to both being removed. The overhaste has since been restored if the spell file I have is correct. I don't know how long ago but probably at least a week or two back. The wiki info on the spell is not up-to-date.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
thank you for the update zaela, i was trying to check it on and off through the spell parser. Adding the haste back to the proc certainly makes it competitive again, however i was not sure it was really representative of the difficulty of what is required to obtain it.
I did a test to determine its dps as compared to what would be the 2nd best option. I had all the dps relevant raid buffs and was only auto attacking during my test. Also, obviously given that procs are important i just took the overall dps from 25 kills with each setup.
Over the course of these kills this was the resulting dps for both setups
all my stuff plus:
Caretaker's Will : 493 auto attack dps
Ortananoch : 485 auto attack dps
So this includes standard bard AA proc, rbow, werefrog procs, as well as the procs from the sword itself. 4.3 bard sword clicky, and I also tash'd all mobs since Ortananoch has that +2 magic damage which is something.
It seems it is still lacking a little bit even adding the haste back (which is appreciated). I think this would be easily remedied by doing two things.
1. Upping the base ratio/damage of the weapon. The +2 magic makes this an effective 1 ratio assuming that damage gets through. Even just making it 21/22 instead of 20/22 will have a positive outcome without causing issues. (not sure how a more extensive ratio/delay change effect proc rate)
2. Give it some stats, any stats, some stats. Mana to match the Hp, and something simple like 10-15 to all stats to help with stat tomes and things of that nature. The weapon was very good before and really didn't deserve stats too, so now that it is more in line maybe toss some stats to help the characters who have all those tomes complete.
Those two things are very reasonable and will in no way cause the sword to balloon out of control. Even with those changes I'd wager the net dps upgrade from Caretaker's Will will be minimal. So it is clearly not too hard to itemize for the future with this in the mix still. To be honest the +10 to 1hs, at least for a bard with low weapon skills, is probably just as huge as the haste since I miss all the time.
Disclaimer, from a rogue or warriors point of view i don't know how this change stacks up.
THANKS, I AM TRYING TO HELP.
LETS BE FRIENDS
I did a test to determine its dps as compared to what would be the 2nd best option. I had all the dps relevant raid buffs and was only auto attacking during my test. Also, obviously given that procs are important i just took the overall dps from 25 kills with each setup.
Over the course of these kills this was the resulting dps for both setups
all my stuff plus:
Caretaker's Will : 493 auto attack dps
Ortananoch : 485 auto attack dps
So this includes standard bard AA proc, rbow, werefrog procs, as well as the procs from the sword itself. 4.3 bard sword clicky, and I also tash'd all mobs since Ortananoch has that +2 magic damage which is something.
It seems it is still lacking a little bit even adding the haste back (which is appreciated). I think this would be easily remedied by doing two things.
1. Upping the base ratio/damage of the weapon. The +2 magic makes this an effective 1 ratio assuming that damage gets through. Even just making it 21/22 instead of 20/22 will have a positive outcome without causing issues. (not sure how a more extensive ratio/delay change effect proc rate)
2. Give it some stats, any stats, some stats. Mana to match the Hp, and something simple like 10-15 to all stats to help with stat tomes and things of that nature. The weapon was very good before and really didn't deserve stats too, so now that it is more in line maybe toss some stats to help the characters who have all those tomes complete.
Those two things are very reasonable and will in no way cause the sword to balloon out of control. Even with those changes I'd wager the net dps upgrade from Caretaker's Will will be minimal. So it is clearly not too hard to itemize for the future with this in the mix still. To be honest the +10 to 1hs, at least for a bard with low weapon skills, is probably just as huge as the haste since I miss all the time.
Disclaimer, from a rogue or warriors point of view i don't know how this change stacks up.
THANKS, I AM TRYING TO HELP.
LETS BE FRIENDS
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Crynel
Dalayan Elder
ive been meaning to parse between the two on reinahrdt but yeah...im addicted to borderlands 2 and cant tear myself away from it. maybe i will at some point.
also on Sheer's note, another thing that "could" be added is a small proc from the illusion like it was when it was first obtained (something like calefaction or around that area in damage) though this could cause stacking issues with other illusions like werefrog. just an idea.
otherwise his ideas sound nice.
*update*
dis some only autoattack parsing on remnants undead using goe, sv, combine, focus. did 3 mobs per offhand (ortanoch/gloom) and averaged about 345 with ortanoch and about 303 with gloom sword.
granted ortanoch procced each mob at least once (2 or 3 on another) and gloom sword procced once on 2 of the three mobs and didnt proc at all on the third. if gloom sword "had" procced a bit better it likely only have been about 10-30 dps behind ortanoch if i had to guess.
ill have to do real parsing (backstabs, crits and full buffs ect) to get a real answer to which is superior cause only 40 dps diffrence isnt a truly definitive answer though obviously ortanoch is superior on assumption.
also on Sheer's note, another thing that "could" be added is a small proc from the illusion like it was when it was first obtained (something like calefaction or around that area in damage) though this could cause stacking issues with other illusions like werefrog. just an idea.
otherwise his ideas sound nice.
*update*
dis some only autoattack parsing on remnants undead using goe, sv, combine, focus. did 3 mobs per offhand (ortanoch/gloom) and averaged about 345 with ortanoch and about 303 with gloom sword.
granted ortanoch procced each mob at least once (2 or 3 on another) and gloom sword procced once on 2 of the three mobs and didnt proc at all on the third. if gloom sword "had" procced a bit better it likely only have been about 10-30 dps behind ortanoch if i had to guess.
ill have to do real parsing (backstabs, crits and full buffs ect) to get a real answer to which is superior cause only 40 dps diffrence isnt a truly definitive answer though obviously ortanoch is superior on assumption.
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Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
It should at least be better than Robes of Royalty, a drop from a tier 9/10 mob. Not sure if that means buffing 4.3 robe or nerfing fae robe or both..
Nerf the Fae robe
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
Thanks Rein! The procs do make a huge difference which is why i tried to do a good sample size of 25 mobs to get those numbers. From mob to mob Ortananoch was much more spikey than Caretaker's Will, but over 25 mobs you can see they were both basically the same despite the huge gap in difficulty to obtain.
Also wow I didn't realize just auto attack damage from a rogue was so low, unless you were missing some buffs. If you do get a chance to test some more, I had standard raid buffs other than like resists or things that don't effect dps. I'm guessing backstabbing is pretty important for rogues especially in regards to the haste buffs on Ortananoch and how that works with backstabs now.
I WILL TRY TO TEST THIS MORE IN THE FUTURE TO GET MORE NUMBERS FOR DEVS, THANKS!
I actually changed a couple items recently although the patch has yet to hit and I did not mention it on the forums anywhere. But I changed the magic damage on the custodian sword to flat damage. Making it a constant 22/22, this should help its damage slightly combined with the change zaela made on adding back the overhaste should put it ahead of the Caretaker's Will.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
oh cool thanks for the update marza i will keep a look out for when this patch goes in.
sorry to tear you away from KungFu Panda the MMO but this was destroying my internet confidence.
edit: i see there was a patch and those changes went in, i will try it soon thank you
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Volkier
Dalayan Beginner
Nowhere near high tiered enough for this to affect me directly, HOWEVER, I will say that I have watched a LOT of people leave and not come back for reasons outlined here - mainly ninja nerfs "just because it wasn't our vision" - a couple of years after the item / spell / content was introduced, and without any basis of the nerfed item / spell / content being considered "gamebreaking" by anyone in the community.
Then there are some completely whacky "nerfs" that are SO stupid that people start to wonder whether the devs doing those nerfs are high on something. Latest example being citadel, with the reward being way out of par now with the difficulty of the zone now. Not to mention it buggered up the market as nobody ever goes there any more. I can't comment much on these particular nerfs (except for saying that I really don't understand how worn movement speed is somehow a gamebreaker - but whatever, it's not something anyone cares about - even if that lack of caring does prove that very point) - but from what is described, it does sound like something that wasn't necessary from that very description, and pissed off a few people who jumped through god knows how many hoops to get the reward.
I've accepted that I would likely never be able to see the end-end game items that are being discussed here - mainly because of my timezones (or maybe I'm just so bad nobody wants to play with me). I'm not complaining about that - I'm happy to just enjoy the game and get as far as I can with what I have. But it is really frustrating to constantly watch people leave the game because they feel they can no longer trust the Devs to be consistent and not nuke something they have worked years on.
I just want to have people to play with. Your constant nerfs - or "fixes" as you call them - are driving people away, the server population down, and depressing a lot of people who are working towards the end game content. Can you guys not instead focus on improving the game, rather than looking for things to nerf? Please? :
Then there are some completely whacky "nerfs" that are SO stupid that people start to wonder whether the devs doing those nerfs are high on something. Latest example being citadel, with the reward being way out of par now with the difficulty of the zone now. Not to mention it buggered up the market as nobody ever goes there any more. I can't comment much on these particular nerfs (except for saying that I really don't understand how worn movement speed is somehow a gamebreaker - but whatever, it's not something anyone cares about - even if that lack of caring does prove that very point) - but from what is described, it does sound like something that wasn't necessary from that very description, and pissed off a few people who jumped through god knows how many hoops to get the reward.
I've accepted that I would likely never be able to see the end-end game items that are being discussed here - mainly because of my timezones (or maybe I'm just so bad nobody wants to play with me). I'm not complaining about that - I'm happy to just enjoy the game and get as far as I can with what I have. But it is really frustrating to constantly watch people leave the game because they feel they can no longer trust the Devs to be consistent and not nuke something they have worked years on.
I just want to have people to play with. Your constant nerfs - or "fixes" as you call them - are driving people away, the server population down, and depressing a lot of people who are working towards the end game content. Can you guys not instead focus on improving the game, rather than looking for things to nerf? Please? :
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