Non-non-item nerf thread
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
Get a 4.3 mask
(see how it works, Everyone can make stupid comments, So now lets try something new, Unless you have something constructive to say, dont say anything)
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booster
Dalayan Master
how does this have anything to do with anything??
It's not like Otcho is complaining his mask got nerfed and wants it un-nerfed.
How does Cella have anything to do with Crystalis, they are 2 tiers apart, he made a troll, i called him on it, pretty simple to catch onto.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
but its just so much easier to complain dimmi GEEZ.
also tarutao's big long post about the custodian sword was pretty good. im not assuming the item will remain in its current state, but want to make sure the SoD head of state takes into account what is required to get that item and make it tier appropriate
and maybe some patch notes can be generated next time a handful of items are changed that would be super, because as much fun as it is to look over all my items and look up all their effects in a spell parser to see why my character is behaving differently, it is nice to have a heads up.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
also tarutao's big long post about the custodian sword was pretty good. im not assuming the item will remain in its current state, but want to make sure the SoD head of state takes into account what is required to get that item and make it tier appropriate
and maybe some patch notes can be generated next time a handful of items are changed that would be super, because as much fun as it is to look over all my items and look up all their effects in a spell parser to see why my character is behaving differently, it is nice to have a heads up.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
kinda off topic kinda not. wondering where the line on runspeed is. If we can't have "worn" run speed are we going to be able to keep our tome and opuses of the swift? or does this break the rule too? wondering cause i want to know if i should continue to exp these tomes
I dont disagree with the nurfs completely, I disagree about the path they took to do it, and how long it took. Slaar fed us some bullshit line...
""""To sum up - The things that were changed were mostly to address two separate issues: First, the ill-formed idea of redesigning a class through select itemization and Second, the huge jumps in power with no middle ground and leaving little room for itemization in the future. Some probably ask why now instead of a year ago, I can answer this.
When these items go in, SOME of them it is not apparent it will be a problem and SOME of them it is obvious there will be a problem. In NEITHER CASE are we psychic. If something appears it will be a problem, I'm always up for giving it a chance and if something does not appear to be a problem, it goes in without even that consideration. Until someone does the content and gets the loot, there is no info. When the content is done and now someone has the loot, there is STILL no info. When enough people have done the content and have the loot that we can see the true effect it has on the game, NOW we have info. NOW we can make a decision based on real-world as-the-game-is information.
Of course, this is not ideal. But we are just three people (on average) -- we have no player-based beta testing except for to put content in the game and see what happens, using what can only be called our best guess as to how the content will play out in the long run. Our guess is never 100% correct but in most cases it is either a non-issue or close enough to the mark that we can just leave it in the past and move on. In this case, as has happened in the past and will certainly happen in the future, things were way, way off-base. If I had a time machine, I would have used it to change these items at the outset but instead I am left to bite the bullet and change them knowing that it will not be well-received but also knowing that it is necessary to ensure that content can be created meaningfully in the future."""""
Im sorry it dont take 20 Crystalis to prove the fact they are OP, the first 3 come out, you watch them 3 players for 20 mins each, Bam u realize that this is not what you intend for the game, completely change it again, You dont let a bunch of people get it then ruin the item. (same with NZ/Custo sword, 4.3 robe, Cella and everything else) You failed to do you job imo, Its a major downfall on this server. People see these high end toons running around being "Gods" compaired to them, So they spend the next 2-3 years (if not more) using there free time to get there, just to have them nurfed. It seems to me (and quite a few others i have talked to) that you want to hand these cool items out to a select group of players, then once general population has it you take them back. People get discouraged when they spend many many hours to get an item that will make there class so much better, then to have it changed to a state no where near it was, I take it as a slap in the face.
Now Say if they made a post a week before the patch, "Hey we are thinking about nurfing X Y Z items cause we think they are op and are not designed around the vision we had of the server. Gave people a chance to discuss, come to grips, or just quit right then. But no, Its always a guessing game, theres no information ever handed out to us. perfect example is the Watchers on custo fight (Look on this thread). We are never updated on what things are changed so they make a select mob harder, easier or whatever the case is, So what do we do, Deal with it as we are told to do OVER and OVER again, Some communication from staff would go a long way. Even when these nurfs happened, theres no mention of it, So a few of us log in and read about item code being overhauled and think that maybe its a mistake, you make us guess on stupid shit for no reason at all. (My guess is you like to laugh and call us dumb)
Also you havent touched 4.3 sword, By what im reading here, skipping Damage inc 9 to go straight to 10 is not in your "intentions" might want to nurf that down to a 8 or 9 fast before people read this and know its comming.
The server population has been droping steadily over the past couple of years, there has been very little population comming back, do you wonder why this is, or are u just waiting for the day that all your work has become pointless and the server is shut down.(not because of lack of money, but because theres 2 people online at most) People in general do not deal well with change, This is why when live, and most other games nurf an item, They take the existing one off the loot table, Create a new item and put it on the loot table, it keeps the players happy, and in the long run that is all that matters in games like this. This game has its addiction factor mainly because u can continually progress as long as you put the effort in, the reason we spend the time is to get better, to make the not fun parts of this game less boring, a little easier. But when you continually nurf exp, Plat drop rates, Items this will continue to drive players away.
They Dont like healers being able to autoattack heal a group? Why, I can see if it didnt cost mana, But what would it hurt if say, Each proc drained 100 mana, (20 mana less than the spell itself takes) Again i dont disagree with the nurf, i disagree with the manner that it was preformed. There was alot of options, but they took one without discussing it, 3 brains < 150 brains, Good ideas come outa of dumb people from time to time.
Classes: CLR(19) DRU(19)
Spell Category: Heals (Heals)
Mana cost: 120 Range: 100 Spell skill: Alteration
Cast time: 4.5 seconds AE radius: 100 Resist type: Unresistable
Recharge time: Instant AE duration: 0 Resist adjust: 0
Duration: Instant Target type: Group Restrictions: None
Reagents:
Not specified
Push back: 0 Auto Cast:
Not specified
Spell Type: Beneficial
The potency of item effects may differ from that of the player spell show here.
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Increase Hit Points by 89 (L19) to 99 (L29)
Cast on You: You feel much better.
Also, Custo / NZ sword should be returned to its former glory, That thing is fucking hard to get, to make it what it currently is.... well only word that comes to mind is stupid.
The only reason i bring up crystalis, is because its an item i have, its an item i know. If i had 4.3 robe, NZ/Custo sword i would use them as examples but i dont know 100% what the nurf did to effect them so im trying to use topics i know and understand.
""""To sum up - The things that were changed were mostly to address two separate issues: First, the ill-formed idea of redesigning a class through select itemization and Second, the huge jumps in power with no middle ground and leaving little room for itemization in the future. Some probably ask why now instead of a year ago, I can answer this.
When these items go in, SOME of them it is not apparent it will be a problem and SOME of them it is obvious there will be a problem. In NEITHER CASE are we psychic. If something appears it will be a problem, I'm always up for giving it a chance and if something does not appear to be a problem, it goes in without even that consideration. Until someone does the content and gets the loot, there is no info. When the content is done and now someone has the loot, there is STILL no info. When enough people have done the content and have the loot that we can see the true effect it has on the game, NOW we have info. NOW we can make a decision based on real-world as-the-game-is information.
Of course, this is not ideal. But we are just three people (on average) -- we have no player-based beta testing except for to put content in the game and see what happens, using what can only be called our best guess as to how the content will play out in the long run. Our guess is never 100% correct but in most cases it is either a non-issue or close enough to the mark that we can just leave it in the past and move on. In this case, as has happened in the past and will certainly happen in the future, things were way, way off-base. If I had a time machine, I would have used it to change these items at the outset but instead I am left to bite the bullet and change them knowing that it will not be well-received but also knowing that it is necessary to ensure that content can be created meaningfully in the future."""""
Im sorry it dont take 20 Crystalis to prove the fact they are OP, the first 3 come out, you watch them 3 players for 20 mins each, Bam u realize that this is not what you intend for the game, completely change it again, You dont let a bunch of people get it then ruin the item. (same with NZ/Custo sword, 4.3 robe, Cella and everything else) You failed to do you job imo, Its a major downfall on this server. People see these high end toons running around being "Gods" compaired to them, So they spend the next 2-3 years (if not more) using there free time to get there, just to have them nurfed. It seems to me (and quite a few others i have talked to) that you want to hand these cool items out to a select group of players, then once general population has it you take them back. People get discouraged when they spend many many hours to get an item that will make there class so much better, then to have it changed to a state no where near it was, I take it as a slap in the face.
Now Say if they made a post a week before the patch, "Hey we are thinking about nurfing X Y Z items cause we think they are op and are not designed around the vision we had of the server. Gave people a chance to discuss, come to grips, or just quit right then. But no, Its always a guessing game, theres no information ever handed out to us. perfect example is the Watchers on custo fight (Look on this thread). We are never updated on what things are changed so they make a select mob harder, easier or whatever the case is, So what do we do, Deal with it as we are told to do OVER and OVER again, Some communication from staff would go a long way. Even when these nurfs happened, theres no mention of it, So a few of us log in and read about item code being overhauled and think that maybe its a mistake, you make us guess on stupid shit for no reason at all. (My guess is you like to laugh and call us dumb)
Also you havent touched 4.3 sword, By what im reading here, skipping Damage inc 9 to go straight to 10 is not in your "intentions" might want to nurf that down to a 8 or 9 fast before people read this and know its comming.
The server population has been droping steadily over the past couple of years, there has been very little population comming back, do you wonder why this is, or are u just waiting for the day that all your work has become pointless and the server is shut down.(not because of lack of money, but because theres 2 people online at most) People in general do not deal well with change, This is why when live, and most other games nurf an item, They take the existing one off the loot table, Create a new item and put it on the loot table, it keeps the players happy, and in the long run that is all that matters in games like this. This game has its addiction factor mainly because u can continually progress as long as you put the effort in, the reason we spend the time is to get better, to make the not fun parts of this game less boring, a little easier. But when you continually nurf exp, Plat drop rates, Items this will continue to drive players away.
They Dont like healers being able to autoattack heal a group? Why, I can see if it didnt cost mana, But what would it hurt if say, Each proc drained 100 mana, (20 mana less than the spell itself takes) Again i dont disagree with the nurf, i disagree with the manner that it was preformed. There was alot of options, but they took one without discussing it, 3 brains < 150 brains, Good ideas come outa of dumb people from time to time.
Classes: CLR(19) DRU(19)
Spell Category: Heals (Heals)
Mana cost: 120 Range: 100 Spell skill: Alteration
Cast time: 4.5 seconds AE radius: 100 Resist type: Unresistable
Recharge time: Instant AE duration: 0 Resist adjust: 0
Duration: Instant Target type: Group Restrictions: None
Reagents:
Not specified
Push back: 0 Auto Cast:
Not specified
Spell Type: Beneficial
The potency of item effects may differ from that of the player spell show here.
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Increase Hit Points by 89 (L19) to 99 (L29)
Cast on You: You feel much better.
Also, Custo / NZ sword should be returned to its former glory, That thing is fucking hard to get, to make it what it currently is.... well only word that comes to mind is stupid.
The only reason i bring up crystalis, is because its an item i have, its an item i know. If i had 4.3 robe, NZ/Custo sword i would use them as examples but i dont know 100% what the nurf did to effect them so im trying to use topics i know and understand.
Dimmi
Dalayan Elder
RE: Custodian Sword - It's definately not tier appropriate as-is, but in its previous incarnation it was essentially irreplaceable on a melee because of the proc. Having a weapon that provided a significant DPS boost via self-buffing (so no worries about things like mirror golem or flare fiend mechanics, no situation where you needed to unequip the item at all) AND with the change from GoG to SB at the same time it was the perfect reason not to give the enchanter your deeps. The overhaste in conjunction with backstab changes was pretty juicy too.
I'm not sure what would be desireable in its place...normally I would say the same buff but toned down, however I don't see most of the staff agreeing with that because, despite its rarity, it would still mean "No I don't want SB." It would also be very difficult to put a buff proc/worn effect (worn dragon illusion would be awesome) on the item and keep the mechanical benefit relevant and unique without making it irreplaceable (i.e. over-cap attack, etc). I'm not sure what ideas the staff is batting around for changes to Legacy of the Dragonkin, but I would humbly suggest maybe a fully stacking debuff? (And obviously it should still turn you into a dragon but be a worn effect)
@oozu: Tomes != worn run speed, they should be fine. They're also much smaller boosts. Innate runspeed, the Swift line of tomes, and even racial run speed bonuses have been around and discussed by the head honcho long long ago.
@why-did-these-nerfs-take-so-long: The staff is 1) Volunteer, 2) by their own admission not the best at communicating and collaborating, 3) don't play the game. Sometimes it just takes a while. I don't think you were around the last time Thaz gear was nerfed, but it was after not only several guilds, but at least two generations of pug raids had raped UT/LT thoroughly and BAM one day all the thaz pants had their dodge mod removed. Think of the game as an ever-changing river...as new content is released, old content has to be tweaked to keep up with the times (look at CMal as an anti-nerf example).
Also isn't there a line of spells already to hit-and-heal?
I'm not sure what would be desireable in its place...normally I would say the same buff but toned down, however I don't see most of the staff agreeing with that because, despite its rarity, it would still mean "No I don't want SB." It would also be very difficult to put a buff proc/worn effect (worn dragon illusion would be awesome) on the item and keep the mechanical benefit relevant and unique without making it irreplaceable (i.e. over-cap attack, etc). I'm not sure what ideas the staff is batting around for changes to Legacy of the Dragonkin, but I would humbly suggest maybe a fully stacking debuff? (And obviously it should still turn you into a dragon but be a worn effect)
@oozu: Tomes != worn run speed, they should be fine. They're also much smaller boosts. Innate runspeed, the Swift line of tomes, and even racial run speed bonuses have been around and discussed by the head honcho long long ago.
@why-did-these-nerfs-take-so-long: The staff is 1) Volunteer, 2) by their own admission not the best at communicating and collaborating, 3) don't play the game. Sometimes it just takes a while. I don't think you were around the last time Thaz gear was nerfed, but it was after not only several guilds, but at least two generations of pug raids had raped UT/LT thoroughly and BAM one day all the thaz pants had their dodge mod removed. Think of the game as an ever-changing river...as new content is released, old content has to be tweaked to keep up with the times (look at CMal as an anti-nerf example).
Also isn't there a line of spells already to hit-and-heal?
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I really hate to say this but i agree with Malicre(even if he is a mouth-breather), alot of the nerfs were appropriate for the items. Except the custodian combine sword which is pretty much complete garbage atm / and the cmal robe which is incredibly rare. This being said i agree with Malicre in which the nerfs were handled, trying to sneak them in under the players noses with a simple
"Items:
Back-end code for handling item stats was given a major overhaul this patch. If all went well, you shouldn't notice any difference at all. However, if you do see anything clearly wrong with any of your items, whether in their stats or behavior, please report it."
isnt the way to go about it
"Items:
Back-end code for handling item stats was given a major overhaul this patch. If all went well, you shouldn't notice any difference at all. However, if you do see anything clearly wrong with any of your items, whether in their stats or behavior, please report it."
isnt the way to go about it
Yes and its pretty bad ass, but it dead ends at 60, 700dmg for 1800 (or close with cop5, healing 8 Di7) with a 30 sec Cooldown, they are an awesome addition to the Cleric spell line, and id love to see them taken farther.
Classes: CLR(60)
Spell Category: Combat Abilities (Offensive)
Mana cost: 250 Range: 123 Spell skill: Evocation
Cast time: 0.5 seconds AE radius: 0 Resist type: Unresistable
Recharge time: 30 seconds AE duration: 0 Resist adjust: 0
Duration: Instant Target type: Single Restrictions: None
Reagents:
Not specified
Push back: 0 Auto Cast: Martyr's Healing
Spell Type: Detrimental
Effects (from parser):
Slot 1: Decrease Hit Points by 500
Cast on You: You have been smitten.
Left
Additional notes: Casts Martyr's Healing on target's target. Spells in "Combat Abilities" are melee ranged despite their range number, and also automatically make the user do a melee attack.
Thx dimmi, Wiki needs updated as this spell line no longer gives you that extra attack. But this is offsubject, im just throwing possibilitys of ways they could have went around. Zurkka seems to have got the point of my posts.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
i don't think anyone is arguing the fact that big time changes going in without giving any notification to the players was a mistake.
and even though it is bad in every circumstance, other games have also gone the way of, 'this is too good we can't let it stay but i dont know what to do. lets just disable it until then.' which is basically what happened with verdict/4.3 robe/custo sword. so i don't think there is any real reason to jump on the staff about the current stats on those items, at least not yet. i guess verdict changed a bit but it is still not really that good i dunno haven't tested it myself.
is the healer haste item progression going to be changed at all? its all 50% from an exp mob's drop to rujik face item and that seems awkward. i care about this and i am not even a healer type unless you count Patch Adams, he healed with the power of laughter.
and even though it is bad in every circumstance, other games have also gone the way of, 'this is too good we can't let it stay but i dont know what to do. lets just disable it until then.' which is basically what happened with verdict/4.3 robe/custo sword. so i don't think there is any real reason to jump on the staff about the current stats on those items, at least not yet. i guess verdict changed a bit but it is still not really that good i dunno haven't tested it myself.
is the healer haste item progression going to be changed at all? its all 50% from an exp mob's drop to rujik face item and that seems awkward. i care about this and i am not even a healer type unless you count Patch Adams, he healed with the power of laughter.
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Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I don't want a 4.3 mask. If you want something closer to pre nerf crystalis get a cella. Its that easy. Also since its been nerfed multiple times I don't think you are going to get that anyway. You're way late to the party.
Cool story about crystalis.
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It was awhile back (like page 2 or 3) but Zaela summed up a lot of the problems that stemmed from me and the items I created and how for the most part the rest of the dev team was either totally clueless or did not completely understand what I had done. And yes, there are some things that I put off even though I should not have (the -20% spec bonus thing for instance) however if I have to be completely honest, I am not the only dev that has fallen prey to this kind of thing.
Regardless I will go ahead and take the blame for the fact that items remained unchanged for so long, communication hasn't always been a strong point for me as a dev when I was trying something new!
Anyway I am gonna try to make sure that the items that have been changed are at least useful for something for the tier you can get them at. Although don't expect them to be back to their former power, because that plain just wont happen. Sorry!
After that though I am going to cut severely back on item creation. I will still be around for other stuff though!!
Regardless I will go ahead and take the blame for the fact that items remained unchanged for so long, communication hasn't always been a strong point for me as a dev when I was trying something new!
Anyway I am gonna try to make sure that the items that have been changed are at least useful for something for the tier you can get them at. Although don't expect them to be back to their former power, because that plain just wont happen. Sorry!
After that though I am going to cut severely back on item creation. I will still be around for other stuff though!!
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oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
thanks for stepping up and communicating!
IF your talking to me, no i quit, If i was still playing id prolly go after Akarn 1hb. For the magic focus, 20 mana upgrade and 5mind / stun resist
Either was i just wanted to make my point, Marza your content / items have made this server an awesome place i dont want you or anyone to step down, i would just like nurfs and major shit not to be hidden from the public untill we log in and go WTF you know?
Edit*** i know it comes off as an attack at the Dev's / GM's of this server, that is not my intentions, Either way i give you all prop's for stepping up and doing this on your own free time, I just wanted the point to be made that even tho this is a free server, The people who get to end game and are effected by these changes wont take shit like this lightly. Its not that hard to spend 15-20 mins a week writing up a report on what you have done and posting it on the forums or whatever. People like to know the little changes all the way to the big.
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This message was not about the nerfs at all. It's not my fault the other devs decided to put in secret nerfs when I really was doing a major overhaul to how items work in the code. Nothing prevented one of them from making their own frontpage post after mine; I didn't know the specifics of the nerfs.
I've already said that elsewhere and I should tell you I get extremely annoyed when someone accuses me of something by implication, especially when they are flat out wrong and could easily know that already.
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oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
Tao or Wald needs to hire a GM or webcode dude or whatever thats specific job is to post patch notes. Then Each dev needs to be responsible for writing up what he or she adds to the patch and sends to this person. this person would then write up a collabaration of what info he recieved and posts it for the world to see!
I mean this would solve 75% of everyones bitching! it seems to be the one thing people bitch about the most!