mellee crits and nots.

Kirin Folken said:
You Win, I can't argue with a paladin that has 600 AAs.
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I don't really think that knowledge of the class is particularly relevant to the discussion on the group HoT aggro nerf; Wiz has already stated that paladin AE HoTs are not supposed to be a mechanism for gaining aggro.

The argument that one or more encounters are too difficult if X were changed is brought up almost every time some change like this put forth, and if you'll look back at the long running discussions about changing many things including Complete Healing (which was certainly a bigger change than this) you'll see that if decisions about the game were being made based on this type of thinking we wouldn't have the wonderful game we do today. The bottom line is paladins are not supposed to be able to generate a lot of aggro on a large number of targets without beating a resist check, and I am sure that any encounters that were balanced with this ability and are too difficult without it can be changed if the issue is brought to the attention of the staff.
 
Wesell said:
I don't really think that knowledge of the class is particularly relevant to the discussion on the group HoT aggro nerf; Wiz has already stated that paladin AE HoTs are not supposed to be a mechanism for gaining aggro.

The argument that one or more encounters are too difficult if X were changed is brought up almost every time some change like this put forth, and if you'll look back at the long running discussions about changing many things including Complete Healing (which was certainly a bigger change than this) you'll see that if decisions about the game were being made based on this type of thinking we wouldn't have the wonderful game we do today. The bottom line is paladins are not supposed to be able to generate a lot of aggro on a large number of targets without beating a resist check, and I am sure that any encounters that were balanced with this ability and are too difficult without it can be changed if the issue is brought to the attention of the staff.
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His point still stands. You can use Grouphots just to support heals w/o getting aggro already. But as it stands now there is everything Gono lined out + the situation where some mob resists your AE and just goes for whoever is next (prox aggro > resist aggro). Usually you get off a heal and it'll peel the mob off, np but I'm worried that this change would ruin this. I'm not sure if heals should be the way to aggrolock stuff but I think that they shouldn't be made aggrofree or really low aggro. It's been a convient tool to catch lost mobs w/o having to click 5 billion things in certain situations or moving a bunch of mobs around the place.
 
Forgive me, but I don't think his point stand in the face of:
Wiz said:
SK aggro may need improvement (still discussing that), but ae heals are not supposed to be aggro machines. The nerf stands.
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AE heals are not supposed to be aggro machines. Load up multiple AoEs or click around to get aggro on runaways or whatever, but swarms are supposed to be challenging to control.
 
Wesell said:
Forgive me, but I don't think his point stand in the face of:
AE heals are not supposed to be aggro machines. Load up multiple AoEs or click around to get aggro on runaways or whatever, but swarms are supposed to be challenging to control.
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Manluas said:
I'm not sure if heals should be the way to aggrolock stuff
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Well aware of and agreeing with this.


Edit: Typos
 
Wesell said:
I don't really think that knowledge of the class is particularly relevant to the discussion on the group HoT aggro nerf; Wiz has already stated that paladin AE HoTs are not supposed to be a mechanism for gaining aggro.
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True, but its hard for anyone on the forums (or staff) to take seriously the views of a Paladin with 84 AAs vs the views of a Paladin with 634 AAs + Tomes When it comes to Aggro in different types of encounters.

Hense why I said I wouldn't argue with him :keke:
 
Group Heal nerf stands. If that means Paladins get dropped to a level below what we intended, then we will look at blind / stun or some other aggro source. Group Heals are not meant to be aggro machines.
 
Let me enlighten everyone alittle, on some raid encounters and highly resistant mobs WE HAVE TO SPAM AE HEALS TO KEEP/LOCK AGGRO on more than 2 targets. Nerfing our heals (which is basically our ONLY way of " locking down " adds that are melee immuned / spell immuned) is not a good fix
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Maybe those encounters are designed to be tanked by a Sks.

Same goes for SKs complaining about ae aggro those encounters are probbably designed for Pals.

Thats why there are 2 classes and not 1. They both have a role. Paladins need to be able to hold agro on multiple mobs but only when those multiple mobs are not being AEd by dpsers or something like that. Otherwise there would not be a need for other tanks.


SKs can FD sure. Useful? Yes. Paladins can lull/pacify to split just as easily, and if all else fails, they can just tank all of that group of mobs, and heal their group while getting agro.
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And seriously comparing SK fd to Paladin lulls is just plain stupidity. Feign Death is so much better for pulling its not even funny. Your seriously undervalueing FD.
 
Noktar said:
And seriously comparing SK fd to Paladin lulls is just plain stupidity. Feign Death is so much better for pulling its not even funny. Your seriously undervalueing FD.
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That's because I know what they both can do. Lull is an amazingly valuable pulling tool.
 
Yeah. There are a ton more mobs that can be split with FD than with lull/pacify, I was just pointing out that it's a viable alternative in an xp situation.
 
Wiz said:
Group Heal nerf stands. If that means Paladins get dropped to a level below what we intended, then we will look at blind / stun or some other aggro source. Group Heals are not meant to be aggro machines.
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Which is fine by me, the only think I'm worried about is that it might actually drop below spell and/or proximity aggro (speaking about a single heal or spell not directed at the mob you want to catch). Otherwise we'll see how it pans out.

Noktar said:
You have to agree FD is WAY better though.
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As long as it is possible I'd prefer lull over FD because it's way safer then lets say a failed FD but this does not belong into this thread anyways.
 
Moved this to: Classes & Gear, which is really the more appropriate place at this point.

My feelings on this subject of the Grp HoT change is that Paladin's should not have the ability to be a back-up healer and aoe tank with one spell alone.

I also feel that if a Paladin is taking on the tank role then they should have to give up some of their dps, for example change Guarding Blade and Cleansing Blade to:

(4) Guarding Blade 20 Puts you into a focused stance, increasing both hate and parry. Due to your defensive mind set, your accuracy will be reduced.

(5) Clensing Blades 35 Puts you into a focused state, increasing critical hits veruses all neutral or evil targets. Due to your offensive mind set, your hate, parry, dodge and avoidance will be reduced.
 
I see nothing out of the ordinary with this paladin nerf. Rangers were nerfed because they were out DPSing rogues at a superior range. Druid's nuke cast times were nerfed due to being too much dps. Why not nerf paladins when SK's complain that paladin > sk?
 
smadcatc said:
I see nothing out of the ordinary with this paladin nerf. Rangers were nerfed because they were out DPSing rogues at a superior range. Druid's nuke cast times were nerfed due to being too much dps. Why not nerf paladins when SK's complain that paladin > sk?
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Well, we've been complaining for awhile, but complaining doesn't get things changed. Neither do valid points and comparisons sometimes. The difference between SKs and Pals was pointed out, repeatedly in this thread to no avail, yet when a staffer says it in a thread, it gets taken into consideration, which is more than I ever thought would happen. I just wish some form of balance could have been done without nerfing another class, but thems the breaks. Sometimes you have to get lucky.
 
Mythryn said:
Well, we've been complaining for awhile, but complaining doesn't get things changed. Neither do valid points and comparisons sometimes. The difference between SKs and Pals was pointed out, repeatedly in this thread to no avail, yet when a staffer says it in a thread, it gets taken into consideration, which is more than I ever thought would happen. I just wish some form of balance could have been done without nerfing another class, but thems the breaks. Sometimes you have to get lucky.
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If something is over-powered it is generally better to bring it in-line rather than upgrade everything else.

** ALERT: THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXAMPLE NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT OR CURRENT PLANS **

It is better to reduce paladin tanking/heal-aggro ability vs. upgrading SK's and wars then possibly having to rebalance entire encounters.

** ALERT: THE EAXMPLE IS NOW CONCLUDED PLEASE RETURN TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED :tinfoil: **
 
Tempus said:
If something is over-powered it is generally better to bring it in-line rather than upgrade everything else.
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Not when something is over-powered, and the other needs a fix. Going halfway doesn't always solve the problem :)
 
SKs get leetcrits :(

[Mon Feb 04 01:07:14 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (150)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:15 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (134)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:15 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (148)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:16 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (188)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:23 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (188)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:26 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (110)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:32 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (198)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:34 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (172)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:35 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (222)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:38 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (190)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:38 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (140)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:39 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (158)
[Mon Feb 04 01:07:40 2008] *the sk* scores a critical hit! (136)

note the 4 crits in 2 seconds
 
This situation just really bites me because I was burned really badly by SOE as a long-term SWGer. Every time someone would complain about another template vs. theirs trying to get something fixed, instead of a fix (if it was relevant and needed fixing) the profession/template it was compared to got nerfed. This caused a massive "flavor of the month" problem in SWG and eventually led to the NGE, which destroyed what is still my favorite game of all time. SoD is my second favorite game, and I really don't want to see issues like I saw with SOE here. If it's a massive time expenditure to fix things, I'm more than willing to help if shown how to do so.
 
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