mellee crits and nots.

edit - original comment not needed.

Nerfing pally agro in the name of helping sks seems a bit backwards to me. Improving SK agro would seem a much much better idea. There are more then a handful of great ideas suggesting improvements to SK's floating around these boards recently. Nerfing pally agro in lieu of any changes to SK's just seems reactionary and not well thought through from my perspective.

Maybe there are changes to sk's in the works already but even so, why decrease a paladins ability to do its role in the game.
 
Wow this got popular in a hurry ;)

If you are Teyc in game, Dev-Zae already answered your question in game yesterday, as did players (apparently you refer to those answers as 'some arguments'). Here's a snippet of the conversation, just in case your memory failed you...:
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Ok so you caught me. But i wanted to get a more widened view on the subject, sure he did answer it to some extent but i was hoping to get input from more than the people who were online at that precise moment
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:26 2008]
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4 in the morning.

OK, after discussing with staff, I will be killing almost all aggro on AE heals for Paladins, for a start.
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Not exactly the way i hoped this would go.

Personally im fine with the pallys being better at AE taunting, I just wish sks then be little better at single target encounters..
As it is now palladins can out taunt me on single and multiple mobs.
If the sks were just a little better at single target taunts, ie more DPS to piss the mobs off more that would in my eyes be a really ok solution.

I support the above statement, BUT, ranger comet should cost 1 mana and have an instant recast.
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Please keep the unsmart / attempt at mocking / whatever to yourself, id prefer the thread to be a serious discussion.
 
I think you lack my perspective there Charlie.

Wiz, please don't nerf paladins. Something that I see quite frequently with a lot of different MMO's is that when one person posts a complaint/problem with their class and compares it with another class, their class doesn't get changed, but the one they compared it to takes a whack in the teeth from the nerf-stick. That doesn't ever really fix what the complaint was about in the first place, it just ruins the comparison.

I've grouped with a lot of different paladins and SK's. As a ranger, I can pull aggro off of any paladin except for one that I've grouped with, pretty much when I want it, but the same thing doesn't go for SK's. I almost never pull aggro off of SK's, and the only time that happens is when CotM is spam proccing and the SK isn't casting enough.

I think the real problem here is that someone is reaching for more for their class without thinking that asking for that is going to detrimentally affect the role of other classes via nerfs. If a change must be made, just add more hate to the terror line - but IMO, even that doesn't really need to be done. There are solutions to this problem for this SK if he learns his class better, without nerfing paladins.

Edit - After re-reading the thread, it's extremely crappy that a post originally by a lowbie complaining that he doesn't get innate crits turns into a pally nerf.
 
Wiz, please don't nerf paladins
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i totally agree. i dont think the nerfbat should come out of the closet.

In the begining I just basically wanted SK crits.. But the more i though about it the less justified it actually seemed. I can't really see the reasoning Paladins got their crit ability and i dont see the reasoning as to why the SK's did not when the paladins did.
I don't think they should be taken away, as crits make the game more fun. If you know you can crit it makes watching the numbers being spammed randomly at the foe much more interesting and addictive to watch.. its just more fun, and thats what the game is all about isent it?

I think the real problem here is that someone is reaching for more for their class without thinking that asking for that is going to detrimentally affect the role of other classes via nerfs.
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Well that is in part true, i am reaching for more for my class. i think the sks would be a better class with crits, hell any class would. The reason i ask for this is that paladins already got this extra bonus, and as stated before since they are better at AE taunts / heals / ..repeat arguments from above here.. i dont see the real reason as to why someone would deem it as necessary for balancing. I however dont wish the nerf bat upon anyone. i just want this to be evened out by sks getting, as said so many times by now.. crits aswell
 
Syalara said:
edit - original comment not needed.

Nerfing pally agro in the name of helping sks seems a bit backwards to me. Improving SK agro would seem a much much better idea. There are more then a handful of great ideas suggesting improvements to SK's floating around these boards recently. Nerfing pally agro in lieu of any changes to SK's just seems reactionary and not well thought through from my perspective.

Maybe there are changes to sk's in the works already but even so, why decrease a paladins ability to do its role in the game.
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SK aggro may need improvement (still discussing that), but ae heals are not supposed to be aggro machines. The nerf stands.
 
SK aggro may need improvement (still discussing that)
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Care to share what options are on the table for discussion so that we, your humble creations, may try to slightly steer your almighty hand?
Actually im just curios, and glad that i have awakened som debate on what i think could be great improvements to my currently fav class =)

and as for the agro part i still think crits are the best option for 3 reasons. (fellow sks please fill in more ;))
1) They are alot more fun than just clicking a spell; they are a bit uncontrollable and in that give another kind of exitement when they actually occur.
2) We already have spells and increasing the agro on them would not really give any new depth.
3) Would be nice to see some dps improvement on SK's as now they really dont stack up that much compared to many other classes, and really how much does a crit increase the dps, its mostly for show.

Though of another..
4) If you are keen on changing the spells for more aggro would not giving us crits accomplish the same thing, just be a more noticable change?
 
Straight dps increase via crits doesn't equal more aggro. Additionally, crits considerably increase dps.

Say for instance, you do a straight 100dps. Add 10% crit to that (crit being double damage) and that 100 dps becomes 120dps (dps+10% of that dps being double), which is a considerable increase. Now add in say 2% crippling strike on top of that, and you're up to about 124dps.

Dude, you really don't know what you're asking for here, and by your reasoning ALL melee dps/hybrids should have innate crits. Get your crit AA's and crit gear. Giving SK's innate crit WOULD overpower them.
 
I have never played a 60+ Shadowknight but from the early experience - mid levels on them it is pretty obvious the advantages paladins have over you.

I honestly never looked forward to a new spell level like I did when I rolled a paladin, exception to a few which meant a new lifetap proc or dd. Almost every other spell I completely ignored except sometimes liking the lifetap or aggro line. (Even when I got level 30 in old first ruins I had not used feign death at the time)

That being said:
On a paladin almost every spell was a great addition , new heals , new hp buff , ac buff , self haste, root, group hots, whatever.
The only two spells I ever thought really sucked were flame of light and that rune thingamajig.

On shadowknight what did I get:
Crappy pet, Crappy pet haste, dots that really I never found a use for in the times that I tanked any group, the casting time always seemed long and it seems now in comparison the paladins spells are way more effective for the time spent casting them.

I thought at some point shadowknights also got some sort of spell haste/buff, but I never really found out what was altering my casting speed (No CSI, playing click the buffs did not get me an answer either) if they do this is something I dont believe any other class has to my knowledge but then its not like I had much I wanted to cast but its a nice touch if you think about shadowknights being the manipulative type having a quick mind and what not.

It may pan out differently at 60+ but the road to there is pretty lackluster as a shadowknight, or so I felt
 
lotox said:
Crappy pet, Crappy pet haste
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Hmm... perhaps you're not aware of this, but Shadowknight pets appear to be up for review and change, according to this recent post:

Wiz said:
Shadowknights

SK pets will receive a boost in power and probably some kind of utility (not decided what exactly), but we're hoping to make them actually useful at all levels.
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...and a suggestion thread has started because of the above information:

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=16237.0
 
Nepentheia said:
Hmm... perhaps you're not aware of this, but Shadowknight pets appear to be up for review and change, according to this recent post:


...and a suggestion thread has started because of the above information:

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=16237.0
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I was aware of this but did not key in too much on it, Who knows what will happen and I dont think a change to pets would make me want to play a sk over a paladin from one of those jerk all i care about is being awesome points of view. But its definitely better then nothing!

Another thing that baffles me is if the followers of marlow are supposed to be the slow and manipulative ones then why do shadowknights not have a lull spell, I realize feign death is there but it is kind of silly to me that they have nothing but numb the dead?

This really was my biggest gripe about the class , I thought it was pretty bullshit that a level 8 paladin could crit a skeleton for 250? or so with a mithril halberd (lol) but eventually got more bothered by how little I used any of the spells or found any significance of them as a shadowknight.
 
Wiz said:
OK, after discussing with staff, I will be killing almost all aggro on AE heals for Paladins, for a start.
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Nerf????!?!? LOL

I call that a gift!! Yippy for Spaming AE Heals now and not having to worry about pulling aggro off someone you don't want to.


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About the FD comment vs Pacify. Thier are plenty of places were Pacify isn't going to do you jack for spliting mobs that you have to use FD. FD is the stronger of the 2 abilites its just not as brain dead easy to use.

SK pets are the place I think to look at make improvements for SKs.
 
Alright ive read over this thread and all i can say is what the hell, we got some damned noob pissed because paladins can generate more dps and aggro at lower lvls. Knights in general suck until 65++. Let me enlighten everyone alittle, on some raid encounters and highly resistant mobs WE HAVE TO SPAM AE HEALS TO KEEP/LOCK AGGRO on more than 2 targets. Nerfing our heals (which is basically our ONLY way of " locking down " adds that are melee immuned / spell immuned) is not a good fix. This whole nerf to fit shit is alittle over kill. Why not bump sk aggro, the new fix to foelock is great and our warrior is holding aggro with ease. Sk's have a nice UNRESISTABLE aggro spells, which any REAL RAIDING Sk can tell you comes in very handy. Why not do something other than nerf the one surefire tool we have to gain aggro on mobs that spawn 8 to 12 adds?

Kirin Folken said:
Nerf????!?!? LOL

I call that a gift!! Yippy for Spaming AE Heals now and not having to worry about pulling aggro off someone you don't want to.
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Dude i cant even imagine where to start with you... just go crawl under a rock somewhere.

Wiz said:
SK aggro may need improvement (still discussing that), but ae heals are not supposed to be aggro machines. The nerf stands.
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Sir, you should know that in the raid game certain summoning mobs make ae aggro almost im possible. The hot aggro and heal aggro isnt a huge part really but it does stand to be used for atleast 5 raid encounters that i can think of. Holding aggro off 2, 2+ tomes casters is no easy feat. Both of them are putting up 500+ dps we need all the " aggro we can get ". The hot aggro is basically a means of innital aggro or inbetween ae's (for those of you guys who dont know) do have a recast.

I do understand that Sk's are lacking, but nerfing us is not the answer. Hots have the aggro that they have always had since the heals adjustment. I am pleading with you Wiz to please find and alternate solution to fixing SK's. Nerfing our (paladin) stuff is not a good fix.

I am simply trying to point out that the heal aggro from our heals is truely key to some and most encounters/exp groups where mobs seem to pop out of nowhere. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reconsider this change an search for an alternate means of fixing the Shadowknights issues.
 
Kirin Folken said:
You Win, I can't argue with a paladin that has 600 AAs.
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Actually he has considerably more than that, he has 634 conventional AAs but has also completed 4 volumes of the codex of power at 200 aa per volume. So it's really more like 1400 aas.
 
robopirateninja said:
Actually he has considerably more than that, he has 634 conventional AAs but has also completed 4 volumes of the codex of power at 200 aa per volume. So it's really more like 1400 aas.
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He could have 400 AAs, I still wouldn't argue with him about any issue paladins had/have.
 
While I agree with Gonobn, that nerfing one class doesn't fix another, I have to bring up his point about unresistable agro (which everyone brings up in reference to SKs). What do you think HoTs are? They are completely unresistable, and affect an UNLIMITED amount of mobs, as well as heal your group/raid. You don't have to worry about a mob resisting it, you don't have to worry about the PBAoE target cap, and you get the added benefit of healing your allies.
 
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