Mage changes *post suggestions here, not in SoD discussion*

[Brimztone]

Putting a mage a cold spell is not fair, because mages were supposed to be only Fire/Magic.

It may be weird, but as Masters of the elements it would sort of make sense.

A new fire rain would be very cool and handy.

A druid won't always be healing on raids. There have been a few situations where I have seen the healing going fine and the druid toss a couple nukes/DoTs on the mob.

 

[duv]

I was able to use the spell today in Paw, used monster summoning three against a great paw and didn't see him hit once.

 

[tinkaa]

They do hit for ~20 average I'd say on Inner Prison trash mobs (and also in pvp on a sk with ~2k ac), max hit was 50 on an eternal statue. It also aux tanked the mob nearly till the mob was dead, which is pretty ok.

The best part about it is that monster summoning 4 is as big as those mobs (ˇˇnote it's in a zone where you can't shrink, the mob itself is pretty big).

I hope this is not the only mage change, but it's fun and still useful in some cases.

 

[vistachiri]

The bigger gripe about druids would be nightfire and bladewind are so insignificantly seperated by damage its ridiculous.

i belive its hard to parse a druid x mage, since it would be only able in groups ( if so ), because druid is usually healing... and we usually nuking.

but id love to see a new fire rain spell at 63-64-65 ? shrugs, pick one.
Putting a mage a cold spell is not fair, because mages were supposed to be only Fire/Magic.
Maybe put more modifier of less resists on mage nukes, like -15/-30 shrugs.

That monster summoning thing imo, is just a new toy for us, but i dont think it will be a big diff...

How exactly is that unfair? Considering both other dps Caster classes both get 3 types.

 

[duv]

I figured it out. I have my pet hits set to a different color but the extra pet hits register as a mob. Thanks for not letting me give up hope tinkaa

 

[Naffel]

So, does anyone know if the Monster Summoning pets get the procs of the NPC monsters? Or any special abilities for that matter?

 

[vistachiri]

So, does anyone know if the Monster Summoning pets get the procs of the NPC monsters? Or any special abilities for that matter?

I havent noticed anything

 

[Danku]

So, does anyone know if the Monster Summoning pets get the procs of the NPC monsters? Or any special abilities for that matter?

It seems to be the same monster in each zone you fight in. He does add a little DPS which is better than a spell that doesn't work by far.

 

[vistachiri]

One of the things ive been noticing lately is people constantly missing rods, regardless of whether they are standing close or not. Huge annoyance for something that is apparently one of the mage primary functions on raids. Can the range just be doubled, I fail to see any reason why that would be overpowered, and I'm fairly certain its a reasonable request. Right now it seems the range is 50, but I'm not sure I'd even put it at that.

 

[Garluk]

The staff wanted details rather than just a generic "mages suck". I think I've proven in <a href="http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/index.php?topic=12376.msg101132#msg101132">this post </a> that mages suck. There is honestly no reason to bring a mage to a raid or a group if you can get another druid or pretty much any other semi-dps class. I'd suggest reducing the cast time on all mage single target nukes by 1 to 1.5 secs and/or making the wizard crit AAs available to mages but keep Primals as wizard only.

 

[seferon]

im agreeing with brandar here we've been going back and forth on druid dps in different types with different changes because of the druid relic nuke and the fact that mages with pet are so close if no below a same tier druid is just silly while i think druid relic nuke does need looked at i really think mages need looked at more the dps count is so bad.

ps to fix aisling's problem a problem im sure all are aware of could i suggest at least a 100 range inc on the spell so range inc items effect it a little more not a huge range and the mage dosent need to be standing on top of the healers for them to get a rod

 

[diolas]

The staff wanted details rather than just a generic "mages suck". I think I've proven in <a href="http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/index.php?topic=12376.msg101132#msg101132">this post </a> that mages suck. There is honestly no reason to bring a mage to a raid or a group if you can get another druid or pretty much any other semi-dps class. I'd suggest reducing the cast time on all mage single target nukes by 1 to 1.5 secs and/or making the wizard crit AAs available to mages but keep Primals as wizard only.

That's a lot of dead mages on an UB.

This thread has been up for months. Mages bring a lot of utility to a raid and at least one is always desired for that purpose. DPS wise they were never meant to beat out wizards but it is kind of meh if druids are supposedly close to them. Weaken a mages pet, give them some great heals and presto, instant druid.

Personally I'd like to see more utility via summons. No, that won't help the 'needing only one mage at a raid' complex but you can whine to all the excess warriors, paladins, shadowknights, beastlords, etc about their similar fate. I think mages are a great class as they are and simply need some additional utility to make them that much more desirable. Preferably this utility would come in the form of a buff rather than summons. More summon utility would just encourage the bot scenario.

 

[hooden]

I can't help but think part of the problem is that Mages are designed to rely on their pet for part of their dps. However, with the way SOD is scaling up and up with regard to gear and mob strength, their pets do not get any better. Thus, mage pets appear relatively weaker. Even if their nukes were only slightly better than a druid's best nuke, mages are still supposed to have that pet that makes them clearly better dps. Well, they still have the pet, but what I see a lot of mages complain about nowadays is a weak pet.

If pets die to rampage, that's something that just has to be dealt with. They will still be good dps versus a mob that has huge resists just as they can still do nuke dps. Mages have such dps versatility where other classes have less. However, the balance comes into play with keeping the pet alive or just saving mana for another nuke. Mages are designed around their pet from the start, and losing the pet's effectiveness hinders the class defining feature. This in turn, I believe, is hurting their class balance.

 

[Wiz]

I can't help but think part of the problem is that Mages are designed to rely on their pet for part of their dps. However, with the way SOD is scaling up and up with regard to gear and mob strength, their pets do not get any better. Thus, mage pets appear relatively weaker. Even if their nukes were only slightly better than a druid's best nuke, mages are still supposed to have that pet that makes them clearly better dps. Well, they still have the pet, but what I see a lot of mages complain about nowadays is a weak pet.

If pets die to rampage, that's something that just has to be dealt with. They will still be good dps versus a mob that has huge resists just as they can still do nuke dps. Mages have such dps versatility where other classes have less. However, the balance comes into play with keeping the pet alive or just saving mana for another nuke. Mages are designed around their pet from the start, and losing the pet's effectiveness hinders the class defining feature. This in turn, I believe, is hurting their class balance.

There is something called pet focuses, you know.

 

[JayelleNephilim]

2 months and 6 pages later we are still posting suggestions for and discussing magicians changes here. I have to be honest and say I don't feel like our discussion is going very far. So far Wiz has commented on the following things:

Considering how quickly a pet dies against many raid mobs, as soon as pet goes kerplunk, mage is suddenly (balanced mage DPS) MINUS (pet DPS).

Your pet dies really quickly against raid mobs even with Barrier Ward?

why would you use ramp tanks for any reason? its seriously a terrible idea, since there are so few healers available on raids now and rampage doesnt hit the main tank

I guess rampage will be hitting main tank again then.

syduck:

This sums up what i thought also, Ruin still uses rampage tanks when needed.

When there aren't rampage tanks I mean!

I can't help but think part of the problem is that Mages are designed to rely on their pet for part of their dps. However, with the way SOD is scaling up and up with regard to gear and mob strength, their pets do not get any better. Thus, mage pets appear relatively weaker. Even if their nukes were only slightly better than a druid's best nuke, mages are still supposed to have that pet that makes them clearly better dps. Well, they still have the pet, but what I see a lot of mages complain about nowadays is a weak pet.

If pets die to rampage, that's something that just has to be dealt with. They will still be good dps versus a mob that has huge resists just as they can still do nuke dps. Mages have such dps versatility where other classes have less. However, the balance comes into play with keeping the pet alive or just saving mana for another nuke. Mages are designed around their pet from the start, and losing the pet's effectiveness hinders the class defining feature. This in turn, I believe, is hurting their class balance.

There is something called pet focuses, you know.

I'm not really sure if that means we aren't coming up with good enough suggestions, if our criticism for the class isn't constructive enough, or if our ideas to improve the class are just too far fetched. Some more in depth feedback would be nice.

 

[hooden]

There is something called pet focuses, you know.

Do you really need to insult me? Of course, I know of these focuses, as well as the mages who are crying out know of them. It still hasn't stopped mages from complaining that their pets often aren't worth keeping alive in many situations. A mage can get a pet focus from 5 to 7; this 5 can be bought with coin and 7 will take some highend raiding. Meanwhile, you just went from raiding entry level raid mobs to level 70+ stuff. Nonetheless, a mage pet will gain 6% hp or strength (not considering buffs) on the way?

 

[Danku]

There is something called pet focuses, you know.

Maybe if pet focuses didnt go in the same geometrical progression of 3% a step it would help. As you go against higher and higher mobs, they become much stronger while your pet gains 3%. Maybe (this is an example only) if it was 3% per pet damage inc 1-3, and then jumped to 5% 4-5 and 6% 6-7. This would possibly be a better improvement in the far and away removed world of raiding/higher end mobs than the same increase per level. Similar to reagent conservation, but improving more in higher steps.

I do not think any mage expects to do wizard DPS, but I look forward to the day where a mage is more valued on a raid or high level group.

 

[diolas]

I do not think any mage expects to do wizard DPS, but I look forward to the day where a mage is more valued on a raid or high level group.

I think most raids are lacking a bit if they don't have a mage around. Pets might need some tweaking but I still think the majority of the focus should be on utility.

 

[vistachiri]

I think most raids are lacking a bit if they don't have a mage around. Pets might need some tweaking but I still think the majority of the focus should be on utility.

Lacking what? Modrods? Pretty much the only thing I can think of that they'd be missing. Malosini (nooopers see shaman). Any function that we have, other than modrods, is either accomplishable by another class with more efficiency, or pretty insignificant, bummable (hey can you summon us searfires?) or modrods.

No mage does expect to do wizard dps, or necro dps (which from what I've seen rivals wizard dps), but they certainly expect to do over druid dps. They should also expect to do a bit over the sustained dps classes, since only their pet is sustained dps, and iffy sustained dps at that, because we certainly can't keep it up ourselves, mend or no mend. Do we? No, not really. Sure we can if we recall it constantly, wait 30 seconds, heal it, and then send it back in for like 20 seconds or so,, but that kind of takes out the sustained dps argument now doesnt it?

Tbh I've started typing in this thread many many many times, and just given up. I also started posting parses at one point, but had to backspace to look up a number at work...and lost the whole thing...which made me pretty pissed at ie, but thats besides the point. So I'm not sure what suggestions I posted and which I didn't. There were alot. A whole lot suggested, in both this, and other threads. For somewhere around the past 6 months or so theres been suggestions made in various formats, and in various threads.

Let's see off the top of my head, there's been suggested by various people
Better resist mods
Another type of nuke (resistwise)
Increased crits on rains (innate, similar to the wiz bonus but only affecting rains.)
Pet having ac
Petheal not blowing
Summoned armor wru?
Petfire!
Scars of sigil=awesome, more of this plz
Manadrain? Extend manastorm line
additions to elemental form line
A fire rain past 55
10% increase on damage (ALL)
Companion resists (very marginal problem I think. Ac being more of one.)
Magic focus!
Share aggro
Lower cast times!
Wizzy crit aa's w/the exception of primals

That's just in this thread alone. There were more in the other as well until it became this thread.
Oh and one I'd like to suggest, getting rid of the recast/improving archaic, since chaining the relic dd bladewind is currently...better dps.

Another? more debuffs?

But anyways, numbers were wanted. There's some numbers. Here's some more even for class comparisons. Quite a while ago, will managed with a little logfile runthrough to parse some necro dots.

Paxx: 10,745 dmg, 74.10 dps (pretty much nukes as I understand it)
Scitterpox: 12,342 dmg, 75.72 dps
Funeral Pyre of Malath: 11,928, 73.18 dps
Repent (Main Pet): 7,825 dmg, 48.30 dps
Pyrocruor: 6,006 dmg, 36.85 dps
Plague: 2,668, 16.37 dps
Zevfeer's Theft of Vitae: 1,705, 10.46 dps

Let's add that up.


Total Dmg: 53,219
Total DPS: 334.98

Now thats a necro, with no relics. Another pet class. One that I'd put as having quite a bit of utility as well (DMF being levi eb and poison resists, at least comparable to the groupresists on mage ds, which dmgwise is inferior and gets overwritten by druid ds, but superior in duration, which is a huge annoyance). Not to mention a necro can easily keep up a caster group with their group lifetap dot thingy with a shaman in the group to patch the holes. I've done it, in thaz, cod, and a few other places as well. Not to mention of course the mana regen inherent to the class, nor their wide variety of roots, snares, etc. Now it's not bad that necros are higher, lest I be misunderstood. But repeatedly we've heard things like 350 dps from veeeeerrrry highend mages. While storms eye-torment tier necros with no relics pretty much blow them out of the water if they use festering curse, and come close when they dont even.

Oh and in case there was any question, that was with affliction 5. Any more questions, I'll get someone to get ahold of will so he can answer them, I didnt run this parse, so I'm not the best person to answer them.

Also it'd be nice to look at the gulf between 63 and relic pets. It's pretty big from what I've seen so far with the relic pet, even bigger than I had thought it would be.

But well what more is wanted? Give us an idea of what numbers, and I'm sure any of the mages or nonmages that have posted here so far can easily enough provide them.

 

[gtoo]

Paxx: 10,745 dmg, 74.10 dps (pretty much nukes as I understand it)
Scitterpox: 12,342 dmg, 75.72 dps
Funeral Pyre of Malath: 11,928, 73.18 dps
Repent (Main Pet): 7,825 dmg, 48.30 dps
Pyrocruor: 6,006 dmg, 36.85 dps
Plague: 2,668, 16.37 dps
Zevfeer's Theft of Vitae: 1,705, 10.46 dps

Let's add that up.


Total Dmg: 53,219
Total DPS: 334.98

wwwhat?
Are you trying to be serial here? That is not how you compute dps.