Endurance system: BST
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Tesselajnen
Dalayan Adventurer
"make our raid force stronger" As I said, dont just look at your beast at your tier. The world of SoD is so much more then just T11+
"the Bsts that we had come and go" Why havent you had a solid beast stick out for all tiers? Like lots of other ppl do with their class? You get one here and you find one there, they run off and start a other class cus they get tired of their unwanted beastlord or they just quit the game or go MIA to return half a year later, play a bit and then go MIA again.
"the Bsts that we had come and go" Why havent you had a solid beast stick out for all tiers? Like lots of other ppl do with their class? You get one here and you find one there, they run off and start a other class cus they get tired of their unwanted beastlord or they just quit the game or go MIA to return half a year later, play a bit and then go MIA again.
Bliss gets clicked off by roughly 3/4 of the raid. Obviously the war/mnk/rog don't need it, since the hp regen is negligible. JB+WoN is 26 mana regen per tick and is always on every raid for every caster save necros. Since the cap is 30 spell mana regen per tick, that means at best bliss is only half useful. Classes with self-buff regen like Mask of the Hunter or High Priest's Bulwark are already at the cap with JB+WoN, so bliss is completely superfluous to them. Even classes without such a spell (especially hybrids) will look to click bliss anytime they need that precious extra buff slot.
Necros do appreciate bliss, though.
Paragon is less mana than a mod rod, delivered over a much longer timeframe. It's definitely in the "better than nothing" category, but hopefully not something someone would look at and conclude that beastlords are fine.
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Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
all 3 of those ideas sound great! I remember complaining the crit was bugged but it was such a long time ago, im surprised it wasn't already fixed.
This is so true. Using the Runic1 is just an amazing boost in DPS, its like having a 2nd pet out. I am also honestly surprised it was never nerfed and figured it was because it was so useless in so many raid fights because of AEs that it was kept the same. Maybe it could be changed into some type of "super dot" that are immune to damage but only attack X times? So lower dps but always useful.
As for slows, you might as well throw enchanters in there also, (for groups) their slow is not as good but they have Tash and will most likely have more CHA making theirs land easier.
I found most casters wanted to keep bliss for reasons that Taru mentioned: Using focus over won. The rest is as Saint said, pure melee dont need mana, hybrids tend to click it for better melee or tanking buffs (though i started keeping it for Runic1 mana). It's a good buff but when slots are limited a bit of extra mana for classes who dont NEED it is going to be clicked for something that lets them survive better.
As he said the hp regen is nothing, I'd say drop that and boost it in some other way which still makes it unique from KEI/JB and some flavor. Not sure which of these can even be done or what kind of stacking issues there would be so just throwing some out with made up numbers: 1-2 over cap FT, 1-3% spell crit, 5% spell haste, 3-5% mana con.
Suggestion: Change Paragon to % based! Since its a flat number its amazing when its first gotten but by the time you get up to Tier10+ the amounts it recovers seems somewhat weak.
Since we're talking about Paragon, does healing inc focus buff it?
I also noticed that SV finally got boosted to 72minute base time, no clue when that happened, but thank you whoever did it.
If they dont have the relic familiar they can keep up Manaskin (or whatever the last self rune buff is) and hit the cap while using Focus over WoN if they have a buff slot for it.
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Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Even at tier 10+ it's good, while it may not fill the same percentage of a mana bar at tier 5 vs tier 11 it indirectly increases in power as casters obtain things like higher mana con. I really don't think that it needs tweaking.
Awesome ideas - but please keep in mind survival and duo viability
There are some awesome ideas here, and some much needed "clean up" (melee class with DPS spells with long cast times, lots of buffs of short (unequal) duration etc...). The new pet proc ideas sound awesome.
Please keep in mind this whilst considering endurance system changes, especially for "on tier" play and groups (rather than "follow the T9+ tank"):
- "Tier for tier", the bst is the lowest AC of all melee classes (their kit is monk gear, but without monk innate AC or monk extra avoidance AAs). AC typically similar to healers (but with better avoidance).
- Beastlords are the only melee/hybrid dps without an "invulnerability" stance (ranger, rogue, monk, bard...)
- ... and they are one of the 3 slower classes (4 inc bard) ...and have no Jolt (i.e. IF they are going to get hit, its usually at start of the fight, duoing, or once everyone else is dead).
So while the building stamina concept works great for"DPS and special moves" (AE even!)... the idea of "wait, I need to build stamina to be able to use my jolt or panic tank survival mode, building, building err... splat" is not so cool
Summary: Please include "some" kind of "panic button for survivability" and/or "tank mode" if/when changing the stance system
Worgar
n.b. Yes, I know I am wearing zero AC headpants and commenting on the low AC of beastlords!
There are some awesome ideas here, and some much needed "clean up" (melee class with DPS spells with long cast times, lots of buffs of short (unequal) duration etc...). The new pet proc ideas sound awesome.
Please keep in mind this whilst considering endurance system changes, especially for "on tier" play and groups (rather than "follow the T9+ tank"):
- "Tier for tier", the bst is the lowest AC of all melee classes (their kit is monk gear, but without monk innate AC or monk extra avoidance AAs). AC typically similar to healers (but with better avoidance).
- Beastlords are the only melee/hybrid dps without an "invulnerability" stance (ranger, rogue, monk, bard...)
- ... and they are one of the 3 slower classes (4 inc bard) ...and have no Jolt (i.e. IF they are going to get hit, its usually at start of the fight, duoing, or once everyone else is dead).
So while the building stamina concept works great for"DPS and special moves" (AE even!)... the idea of "wait, I need to build stamina to be able to use my jolt or panic tank survival mode, building, building err... splat" is not so cool
Summary: Please include "some" kind of "panic button for survivability" and/or "tank mode" if/when changing the stance system
Worgar
n.b. Yes, I know I am wearing zero AC headpants and commenting on the low AC of beastlords!
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
sb still has the problem that cleric runic2 overwrites it making it pointless to cast once you get to that point. (ofcourse for all other tiers its a different story)
shneekeythelost
Dalayan Beginner
My two cents on the topic:
In my opinion, with respect to mana/endurance, there's three basic categories of classes:
1) Pure caster. That's Wiz/Mag/Nec/Enc/Clr/Shm/Dru. They don't need endurance stuff because they have their spells.
2) Pure melee. Fighter, Monk and Rogue are really the only ones in this category. They don't have, need, or use mana. They need a lot of Endurance using abilities because it's really all they have to draw on that is 'nifty'.
3) Hybrid. That's SK, Pally, Bard, Ranger, and Beastie. All four have casting... but it's not as spiffy as the pure casters. For that reason, I think all five of them should have some endurance stuff as well.
Now, let's look at their stance options
/s 4 reduces their aggro generation, which is one of their main problems.
/s 5 trades off accuracy for haste... not so sure this one is really worth it. You can get haste several different ways, and there is possibly a stacking issue here. Besides, if you miss an equal or greater percent of the time than the haste generates attacks, it's a net sum loss.
/s 6 seems cool until you realize that it really isn't all that effective because it runs out quickly and a mob isn't constantly trying to cast all the time. Maybe this should be an activated ability that automatically interrupts the spell being cast by your target for a flat endurance cost and maybe a reuse timer?
/s7 means your pet goes down fast in any raid situation, which is counter-productive, because then you have to re-summon, then pester the mage for silks, then collar, then see what kind of pet weapons you can put back on it... this is definitely counter-productive on any raid, but moreso the higher tier you get. Pets are high-maintainance already, this makes that problem worse.
So he really has no options here. /s4 all the time, every time.
Now, let's look at stance options for a Ranger, who is the other DPS-focused hybrid class:
/s 4 trades off DPS for survivability. Handy if you suddenly have drawn aggro and need to tank it until the real tank can get it back.
/s 5 is increased melee DPS for a burst. However, at higher levels, it's meh because you're doing most of your DPS with your bow, the DPS boost is relatively minor, and it drains your stamina fairly rapidly. Not useful for the raiding ranger.
/6 is a 'Tank down! Someone get this off of me!' button. Extremely handy on a raid to give the offtank/secondary tank time to apply a snap-aggro tool and prevent a raid-wipe.
/7 is burst DPS. This is what you do when the Enchanter shouts 'STRIKING CURSE ON!', or 'Healer at 10% mana, BURN IT DOWN NOW!'.
/8 is the stance you are in 90% of the time on a raid, because you're standing back with the clothies racking up amazing DPS with your bow. Considering even with the drop in defenses, you're still more likely to survive something jumping you than a clothie is... not a major concern. You'll have time to switch to /s 6 if the raid target jumps on you.
So we see here that he's got three main stances that are viable in a raid... one that increases DPS, one that is a 'prevent a raid-wipe' button, and one that is a burst-DPS button.
The beastlords have none of these options. And really, if you've got a solid raid-tank, the beastlord isn't going to jack aggro anyways, since his DPS is nowhere near what, say, a Ranger or a Rogue's is.
In my opinion, a Beastlord needs something to do with his endurance. Something that will be viable in a raid. A burst-DPS button would be a good thing, something that drains stamina but increases his DPS. After all, they're supposed to be a DPS class, right? Also, they are the only melee class without a 'tank down, get this off of me!' button. Granted, they generally don't need one because every other melee class is ahead of them on hate, but that's something that needs to be fixed as well.
You want to give Beastlords a useful raid tool? Give 'em a stance that gives them a reduced chance of being hit by a riposte. Beasties can't take the hits that most of the other melee classes can, and you can't always position yourself behind the target because of the encounter script.
In my opinion, with respect to mana/endurance, there's three basic categories of classes:
1) Pure caster. That's Wiz/Mag/Nec/Enc/Clr/Shm/Dru. They don't need endurance stuff because they have their spells.
2) Pure melee. Fighter, Monk and Rogue are really the only ones in this category. They don't have, need, or use mana. They need a lot of Endurance using abilities because it's really all they have to draw on that is 'nifty'.
3) Hybrid. That's SK, Pally, Bard, Ranger, and Beastie. All four have casting... but it's not as spiffy as the pure casters. For that reason, I think all five of them should have some endurance stuff as well.
Now, let's look at their stance options
/s 4 reduces their aggro generation, which is one of their main problems.
/s 5 trades off accuracy for haste... not so sure this one is really worth it. You can get haste several different ways, and there is possibly a stacking issue here. Besides, if you miss an equal or greater percent of the time than the haste generates attacks, it's a net sum loss.
/s 6 seems cool until you realize that it really isn't all that effective because it runs out quickly and a mob isn't constantly trying to cast all the time. Maybe this should be an activated ability that automatically interrupts the spell being cast by your target for a flat endurance cost and maybe a reuse timer?
/s7 means your pet goes down fast in any raid situation, which is counter-productive, because then you have to re-summon, then pester the mage for silks, then collar, then see what kind of pet weapons you can put back on it... this is definitely counter-productive on any raid, but moreso the higher tier you get. Pets are high-maintainance already, this makes that problem worse.
So he really has no options here. /s4 all the time, every time.
Now, let's look at stance options for a Ranger, who is the other DPS-focused hybrid class:
/s 4 trades off DPS for survivability. Handy if you suddenly have drawn aggro and need to tank it until the real tank can get it back.
/s 5 is increased melee DPS for a burst. However, at higher levels, it's meh because you're doing most of your DPS with your bow, the DPS boost is relatively minor, and it drains your stamina fairly rapidly. Not useful for the raiding ranger.
/6 is a 'Tank down! Someone get this off of me!' button. Extremely handy on a raid to give the offtank/secondary tank time to apply a snap-aggro tool and prevent a raid-wipe.
/7 is burst DPS. This is what you do when the Enchanter shouts 'STRIKING CURSE ON!', or 'Healer at 10% mana, BURN IT DOWN NOW!'.
/8 is the stance you are in 90% of the time on a raid, because you're standing back with the clothies racking up amazing DPS with your bow. Considering even with the drop in defenses, you're still more likely to survive something jumping you than a clothie is... not a major concern. You'll have time to switch to /s 6 if the raid target jumps on you.
So we see here that he's got three main stances that are viable in a raid... one that increases DPS, one that is a 'prevent a raid-wipe' button, and one that is a burst-DPS button.
The beastlords have none of these options. And really, if you've got a solid raid-tank, the beastlord isn't going to jack aggro anyways, since his DPS is nowhere near what, say, a Ranger or a Rogue's is.
In my opinion, a Beastlord needs something to do with his endurance. Something that will be viable in a raid. A burst-DPS button would be a good thing, something that drains stamina but increases his DPS. After all, they're supposed to be a DPS class, right? Also, they are the only melee class without a 'tank down, get this off of me!' button. Granted, they generally don't need one because every other melee class is ahead of them on hate, but that's something that needs to be fixed as well.
You want to give Beastlords a useful raid tool? Give 'em a stance that gives them a reduced chance of being hit by a riposte. Beasties can't take the hits that most of the other melee classes can, and you can't always position yourself behind the target because of the encounter script.
I actually disagree with most of his post, and him calling beastlords "beasties" isn't helping. His descriptions of the benefits of beastlord stances is very much different from my own experiences, and I don't agree that his suggestions would be very helpful at all.
Tesselajnen
Dalayan Adventurer
Dunno what level of beastlord experience this guy have... but it doesnt seem to be much =/
Yeah... Uhmmm.... Pet stance has saved a lot of beastlordass on this server, on raids, in expgroups and when soloing. In petstance you can tank adds or nameds for a X amount of time, with heals from yourself and healers around you on raids or expgroups and it is amazing to have when soloing a bit harder mobs or nameds. /s 7 is the most useful stance a beastlord have as it is today.
Also the higher I have gotten, the easier it has become to keep my pet alive. Also with the pet tomes and gear there is now and with the pet heals reduced in recast and casttime (love you Zae) this is a even more awesome stance.
You have never had a beastlord taking aggro on a raid or a exp group? Well, I got news, the higher up you get the more often it can and will happen. And we have no way of getting out but to pet stance and hope for the best.
No, every other melee class isnt ahead of the beastlord when it comes to hate, a beastlord can easily be second on aggro without hard work actually, some slowing, some DPSing, some blind (if you want to be second on aggro) and then aggro is yours if tank dies. But the problem isnt getting the aggro, its not beeing able to lose it or lower it ever but to back off and go take a coffee.
And this is where pet stance comes in AGAIN, it is the best stance a beastlord have. With it you can offtank adds on raids, you can tank nameds in expgroup if tank is gone and so on.
Yeah... Uhmmm.... Pet stance has saved a lot of beastlordass on this server, on raids, in expgroups and when soloing. In petstance you can tank adds or nameds for a X amount of time, with heals from yourself and healers around you on raids or expgroups and it is amazing to have when soloing a bit harder mobs or nameds. /s 7 is the most useful stance a beastlord have as it is today.
Also the higher I have gotten, the easier it has become to keep my pet alive. Also with the pet tomes and gear there is now and with the pet heals reduced in recast and casttime (love you Zae) this is a even more awesome stance.
You have never had a beastlord taking aggro on a raid or a exp group? Well, I got news, the higher up you get the more often it can and will happen. And we have no way of getting out but to pet stance and hope for the best.
No, every other melee class isnt ahead of the beastlord when it comes to hate, a beastlord can easily be second on aggro without hard work actually, some slowing, some DPSing, some blind (if you want to be second on aggro) and then aggro is yours if tank dies. But the problem isnt getting the aggro, its not beeing able to lose it or lower it ever but to back off and go take a coffee.
And this is where pet stance comes in AGAIN, it is the best stance a beastlord have. With it you can offtank adds on raids, you can tank nameds in expgroup if tank is gone and so on.
same.
While it was fairly rare for me it happened. Nothing like having to drop aggro by turning off attack, changing to /s 7 and hoping that you either got heals or lost agro. Some sort of spell/stance that would transfer/drop some of the BST hate to the pet. Changing /s 4 to be a straight agro transfer to the pet instead of just lowering generation some would be nice, make it do X%/tick for 3 ticks while draining X% endurance.
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