What's Cole Working on [as of 2020-3-5]

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
TL;DR:
Server population is low so we need to make T13 content more easy so I can get loot. Also, Kedrin is a loot whore.
Lol not what anyone is saying but okay.

As a matter of fact I at least said the difficulty in mind was fine repeatedly, its a matter of is it targeted at a small subset of players that can box really well or other wise intended for 18 bodies. If so then its going to be more of the same.

At some point you need to acknowledge that one subset of players that are all above average is not how content should be balanced.

Also no one said you were a loot whore, in fact if you recall about a month ago when you messaged me in game asking to get in on a digger kill for a hat I said it maybe possible but we still had guildies in line and I questioned you why your own guild didnt want to help you which I thought was odd.
 

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
My guild doesn't know how to kill stagnant mobs, they are too difficult to kill. Hopefully devs will make more content that involves movement, just for us, soon so we can finally progress.
 

Marza

*Unfortunately a Developer*
Not against movement strat encounter's myself, the problem comes in when it's movement based and requires people to box to have the number's. The reality is many are not good at boxing let alone boxing on movement heavy strats. The only answer I can come up with is to adjust to a lower body count.

Sure you can say "if people are not comfortable with boxing they should not be doing it" but what happens when the server population has depleted to the kind of number's it sees now and there simply isn't enough people good at boxing to make the content viable?
I already mentioned that maybe it's time to tune 18 mans down to 12 mans, really that's the best solution. Making a bunch of content that is essentially easy because it allows people who are bad at boxing to still defeat is not the solution.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
I already mentioned that maybe it's time to tune 18 mans down to 12 mans, really that's the best solution. Making a bunch of content that is essentially easy because it allows people who are bad at boxing to still defeat is not the solution.
Yep, which despite some people twisting my words is what I suggested from the start.

Glad were all on the same page now.
 

Binsin

Dalayan Elder
I skimmed through most of this cause all this really sums up is why we cant keep new players and why alot of people quit. Its the community. Theres maybe a handful of people who go out of their way to help new people try and get their bearing and enjoy the game, most it seems like 70% of the focus is on the top heavy players who have played for years and either dont want change cause they had to do it, so others should too, I.E: Get better at the game or quit. then try and get better, watch other people quit, play by yourself for a few more weeks/months and then lose motivation of playing because its boring to play a MMORPG alone. If this server is to survive, it needs to ignore the crybaby endgame players and start listening to new players who join and their feedback about the early game and how to make that better. Once this server can start retaining the newer players, the population can start to grow.


Ill never see any of your content Dev-Cole, but Im glad there someone else to help with the work load. Good luck and I hope you have fun, because that is all games should be about.

Edit: What ever happen to that account drive?
 

Wit

Dalayan Adventurer
I already mentioned that maybe it's time to tune 18 mans down to 12 mans, really that's the best solution. Making a bunch of content that is essentially easy because it allows people who are bad at boxing to still defeat is not the solution.

This isn't a solution as much as putting the server in a retirement home so it can die peacefully. Which is fine, maybe its time for SoD, but call it what it is. Retooling 14 tiers of raids to be 1/3 of what they are now is a lot of work to kill something thats already dying on its own. I'm more of the opinion that creating real change that helps fix the underlying issues so more people want to play is the course to take rather than making it more fun for the last 12 people here.

Making everything a 12man is going to come with a host of issues that does nothing to address the real problems. Not being able to field 18man raids is a symptom of the population being low. The population is low for a few reasons, class imbalance, time sinks, impossible to catch up to most the server, it not being fun to catch up even if you can etc etc

At some point you need to acknowledge that one subset of players that are all above average is not how content should be balanced.

At some point you need to acknowledge that sub par players don't get to see all the content because then it would be balanced around sub par play... the point is you get better or you don't progress, you seem clueless.

And everyone in this thread whining about boxing... LOL is about all there is to say to that... this game has basically required you to box from lvl 1 and I assume everyone still around has played for a few years now at the least... if you don't like or are bad at boxing you should have switched games a decade ago... You could also maybe TRY, its 100% possible as many people have done it before, and when I say before, I mean before 2.5 and the massive power creep that went with it.

So what is your excuse? Seriously. "I suck at playing this game so make it easier!" is what you sound like and the truth of ALL MMOs and games in general is "Learn the game and get better, progress as far as you can, but not everyone makes it to the end", have you considered you just are not and never will be good enough at this game to progress past t12? Seriously, not everyone who learns to walk goes on to become a mountaineer, not every mountaineer goes on to climb Everest, they accept that, why can't you accept your Everest? Instead you want Everest lowered so you can conquer it but thats not really beating it, is it?

If you suck at boxing there is this little known trick called "practicing". Now practicing might not make you the best boxer overnight but it turns out humans have the ability learn by doing something over and over again and if you actually try you will become better at it, we call it developing a skill. Boxing is a skill, you can learn it and get better at it. I think most of you have put in enough time to this game to be about as good as you'll ever be so go ahead and do a /played... how/why are you still bad at this game? Could it be because you never try anything new, you never try to play better, you just do the same autopilot shit you've always done and ingrained that poor/lazy play into everything you do in this game? I think so. Push yourself, get better at playing the game and progress, or stay the same and stay where you are. It's the END GAME, it's suppose to get harder and push you more as you climb the tiers, you are suppose to learn and master your class after playing it for 10 years and beating 12+ tiers of raids and yes that even includes basic skills like moving and boxing.

And nothing in this game is designed around 12 above average players boxing 6 toons, but around 18 players each playing well. The fact that 9-12 people CAN beat this content while being handicapped by boxing means its fairly simple/under tuned... That means it's not at all balanced around good players, you are just exceptionally unskilled. Your unwillingness to progress as a player is a sad testament to how much of a joke the t1-12 content is, its no more than a time sink check on exp/charms, sorry you can't afk auto attack all the way to the end, sometimes you have to move as well.

6 people on an empty server farming t14 "raid encounters" toned down to clown fights so the bad players that have no business being in t14 can kill them and feel good about themselves before getting bored and quitting isn't going to do this server any favors, thats just kind of pathetic.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
This isn't a solution as much as putting the server in a retirement home so it can die peacefully. Which is fine, maybe its time for SoD, but call it what it is. Retooling 14 tiers of raids to be 1/3 of what they are now is a lot of work to kill something thats already dying on its own. I'm more of the opinion that creating real change that helps fix the underlying issues so more people want to play is the course to take rather than making it more fun for the last 12 people here.

Making everything a 12man is going to come with a host of issues that does nothing to address the real problems. Not being able to field 18man raids is a symptom of the population being low. The population is low for a few reasons, class imbalance, time sinks, impossible to catch up to most the server, it not being fun to catch up even if you can etc etc



At some point you need to acknowledge that sub par players don't get to see all the content because then it would be balanced around sub par play... the point is you get better or you don't progress, you seem clueless.

And everyone in this thread whining about boxing... LOL is about all there is to say to that... this game has basically required you to box from lvl 1 and I assume everyone still around has played for a few years now at the least... if you don't like or are bad at boxing you should have switched games a decade ago... You could also maybe TRY, its 100% possible as many people have done it before, and when I say before, I mean before 2.5 and the massive power creep that went with it.

So what is your excuse? Seriously. "I suck at playing this game so make it easier!" is what you sound like and the truth of ALL MMOs and games in general is "Learn the game and get better, progress as far as you can, but not everyone makes it to the end", have you considered you just are not and never will be good enough at this game to progress past t12? Seriously, not everyone who learns to walk goes on to become a mountaineer, not every mountaineer goes on to climb Everest, they accept that, why can't you accept your Everest? Instead you want Everest lowered so you can conquer it but thats not really beating it, is it?

If you suck at boxing there is this little known trick called "practicing". Now practicing might not make you the best boxer overnight but it turns out humans have the ability learn by doing something over and over again and if you actually try you will become better at it, we call it developing a skill. Boxing is a skill, you can learn it and get better at it. I think most of you have put in enough time to this game to be about as good as you'll ever be so go ahead and do a /played... how/why are you still bad at this game? Could it be because you never try anything new, you never try to play better, you just do the same autopilot shit you've always done and ingrained that poor/lazy play into everything you do in this game? I think so. Push yourself, get better at playing the game and progress, or stay the same and stay where you are. It's the END GAME, it's suppose to get harder and push you more as you climb the tiers, you are suppose to learn and master your class after playing it for 10 years and beating 12+ tiers of raids and yes that even includes basic skills like moving and boxing.

And nothing in this game is designed around 12 above average players boxing 6 toons, but around 18 players each playing well. The fact that 9-12 people CAN beat this content while being handicapped by boxing means its fairly simple/under tuned... That means it's not at all balanced around good players, you are just exceptionally unskilled. Your unwillingness to progress as a player is a sad testament to how much of a joke the t1-12 content is, its no more than a time sink check on exp/charms, sorry you can't afk auto attack all the way to the end, sometimes you have to move as well.

6 people on an empty server farming t14 "raid encounters" toned down to clown fights so the bad players that have no business being in t14 can kill them and feel good about themselves before getting bored and quitting isn't going to do this server any favors, thats just kind of pathetic.
Who said anything about balancing around sub par players? I didnt.

As it stands LA and my guild to my knowledge are the only ones to kill all of bloodstorm and generally one shot most of the fights there and have one shot all of them (pretty sure were the only guild to kill digger with zero caster dps and no enchanter). Also pretty sure were the only ones to kill all the new boses in abyss including egg sac.

Also practicing cant fix isp lag or some folks dont have great pc's, one player I know takes a solid 3 seconds to tab to their box.
 
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Wit

Dalayan Adventurer
I skimmed through most of this cause all this really sums up is why we cant keep new players and why alot of people quit. Its the community.

This has been talked about to death and its just flat out wrong. Do less skimming and read what people actually have said about this topic and stop parroting this shit. T10+ people being ringers/carrying new players isn't the solution to anything and it isn't fun for anyone, flaws in game design will never be cured by the players... just stop.
 

Binsin

Dalayan Elder
This has been talked about to death and its just flat out wrong. Do less skimming and read what people actually have said about this topic and stop parroting this shit. T10+ people being ringers/carrying new players isn't the solution to anything and it isn't fun for anyone, flaws in game design will never be cured by the players... just stop.
Lol... talk about not reading what people say.
 

Dev-Cole

Developer
Staff member
Lake of Ill Omen will scale in difficulty from new players entering Ikisath to [currently undecided]. So you will all be able to enjoy it as well.

The tier 13 stuff is kind of floating independent of Lake of Ill Omen at the moment. (It was designed before LOIO)
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
Maybe I'm not following this one properly but I don't think new players are the ones that are told they should improve their characters/gameplay before progressing to the final and hardest tiers of content, and thus quitting because of it. Even if people could/did progress into that content, they'd quickly end up at the same point as loot associates is, with nothing reasonable to progress on, and probably quit because of content draught anyways.

Re-balancing most raid content to go from 18->12 man would probably be a healthy thing long term, although I think it'd negatively affect a few guilds that have more than 12 consistent players. It'd also probably want to be accompanied with some class balancing changes otherwise dragging along your friends who are unfortunate enough to play things like mage or necro becomes even more of a hassle.

Honestly I think it'd be neat to see some major overhauls (raids going from 18->12, major class balancing changes, certain "mandatory" class books being baked into the class baseline or as cheap AAs, remove questing bottlnecks etc) to the game, then a server wipe/relaunch + account drive. I'm probably in the minority on this though. Regardless, I think some pretty drastic changes would need to happen to see a healthy recovery in the servers population.
 

Wit

Dalayan Adventurer
Lol... talk about not reading what people say.

Ok could you go ahead and explain to me how T10+ players as a community are killing this game and what you think they could do to save it? Just because they don't want to go farm crocs in remnants for another 10,000hours with every little noob that joins the server doesn't make it their problem or fault. And while that would help the noob catch up quick(as has been said 50+ times, READ THIS NEXT BIT CAREFULLY:) it isn't fun as a noob and its blow your brains out boring for whoever is carrying the noob. You blame the community for this and the high tier players but if THIS was all there was to the game, going back and redoing FOR OTHERS what you've already done for yourself the end game player would quit just like the noobs do. Spoiler: no one wants to spend endless hours farming anymore, especially when they get nothing out of it. That's not a game, its work...

You think end game players have never helped anyone before? They are jaded, they have helped countless noobs along the way and 99.9% of them quit because unless you hold their hand EVERY day ALL the way to t10+ they will log in and have nothing to do and eventually quit due to NOT BEING ABLE TO PROGRESS ON THEIR OWN. These are game design flaws not community ones.

This is game design: the top end has gone on for 10+ years and there have been little to no mechanics enabled to help bridge that 10+ year gap for new players. Again go read what I've posted in this and other threads and you will find all my ideas revolve around streamlining 1-65-T10 into a somewhat fun and playable experience instead of a dead end / boring ringer/carry situation reliant upon the end game players.

People want to:
Kill big monsters
get cool loots

But end up doing:
hours and hours of exp/pp farming in 1-2 zones. 14 raid tiers and 100s of cool zones don't really mean shit if all you ever do is box in kaesora for exp and cash.

We can fix this with new content/changes but again none of this is fixable by T10+ players being "bros". Try actually reading these threads in full if you'd like to participate, right now you just sound uninformed and lacking in Wit.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
everyone in this thread whining about boxing... <A whole lot condescension toward people you don't know, most of which didn't say shit you're acting like they said>

Do less skimming and read what people actually have said about this topic and stop parroting this shit.

Who are you even talking to on the boxing thing besides maybe Paxit? I don't know who everyone is in this thread, but the ones I do know box just fine. I've personally stopped playing this game mostly because of know-it-all people that have no idea how to treat other people.... I actually like and agree with some of your ideas, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that everything you, I, or anyone else types in one of these discussions is our >opinion<.
 

Marza

*Unfortunately a Developer*
This isn't a solution as much as putting the server in a retirement home so it can die peacefully. Which is fine, maybe its time for SoD, but call it what it is. Retooling 14 tiers of raids to be 1/3 of what they are now is a lot of work to kill something thats already dying on its own. I'm more of the opinion that creating real change that helps fix the underlying issues so more people want to play is the course to take rather than making it more fun for the last 12 people here.
I won't lie, it kind of is a telling move but unless this server can somehow start growing again something like this is likely needed though. Also no matter what solution there is to the problem we are talking about is going to require a lot of work in some way. A lot of people would actually (and do) enjoy 12 man content though, I am certain about that, and it is a more fitting raid size for the current population.
 

Wit

Dalayan Adventurer
Numbers, bodies behind keyboards plain and simple.

Server population is too small to be able to field completely unboxed raids of 18 man content.

Now of course someone will reply "but X guild does this/that with boxes". Sure but is it fun, do people want to have to box, and was the content created with 18 people in mind or 1/3rd of the raid boxed and delayed?

See here, he admits other players can do what he cannot, he just complains about it being "not fun and we don't like to box so we will never do progression content"


Not everyone is good at boxing and safe to say most are not capable of playing two characters well.

I mean if the goal is to make more content for only one group of players or for only those good at boxing than sure

Also most people dislike boxing and prefer to not box. The server population pretty much forces boxibg due to content design.

Making viable content that minimizes boxing would be a good thing.

Unless you only have 9 players not EVERYONE has to box...
As I said before, boxing is a part of this game from day 1 and always will be, if you don't like it... why are you playing this game? Serious question...

T13 in its current form either requires a full raid of bodies (or close to it) or people really good at boxing which most players are not, or at least not enough to do t13.

Full raid of bodies is pretty rare these days. Other guilds are also being held back by too many boxes. Its a problem and Im suggesting possible solutions, being constructive.

Maybe drop all those boxes and merge with that other another struggling guild(s)? Or is being shitty at boxing and never progressing better than the ego hit of having to play with others?

Movement fights pose a problem and its unrealistic to say we did it so can you, timing is a big issue in the boxed environment we are in and the most boxed class sadly is a healer ( Cleric's wru ) the choice between moving and casting a heal is often the difference between winning and losing raid content. Try to take that in consideration when making any content whatever the tier is for 18 man fights.

Make anyone but the 3 people playing Clerics box? Whoa...

Who are you even talking to on the boxing thing besides maybe Paxit? I don't know who everyone is in this thread, but the ones I do know box just fine. I've personally stopped playing this game mostly because of know-it-all people that have no idea how to treat other people.... I actually like and agree with some of your ideas, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that everything you, I, or anyone else types in one of these discussions is our >opinion<.

See above. And you stopped playing when your guild died cause your GM got banned... but calling the Admins know-it-alls that have no idea how to treat people is accurate I suppose.

And I understand what opinions are. Try to understand that opinions can also be wrong no matter how much someone believes in them and the point of discussion, particularly in online forums is to share ideas and change opinions. People have come in, "skimmed" a thread and post the same knee-jerk reaction "the community" only to have plenty of people point out how wrong it is, shitposting your opinion thats already been posted and disproven isn't covered by "but its muh opinion herp durp" excuse, it's just a distraction from the real discussion and annoying to have to correct every time it comes up, which is why I said go READ the whole thread and the other thread(s) where the same opinion has been posted and debated already, you're not adding anything to the discussion, it's not an original thought, it's not even a defendable opinion or if it is no one has stood up to be its champion... by all means, try it.

If you think the "community" is the problem, prove it, otherwise its a baseless opinion that myself and others have poked several holes in and no one has replied to, argue your opinion with logical points but don't think every opinion deserves respect when its just another uninformed binsin showing up and spouting off the same drivel. If myself or others are short and "treating others badly" I would point out that jumping into a conversation mid way and having no idea what has been said and repeating what has already been said is much ruder, but thats just MY opinion.
 

sabuti

Dalayan Elder
this thread is full of people who don't even play, talking about how bad and dead the game is. all that really needs to happen is lessening the grind so that driven players can actually join in on high tier raiding in a reasonable amount of time.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
another opinion

Let's just agree to disagree (even though I probably actually agree with more than half of it...). You're misreading or making up half the stuff we say anyway.

and again, someone should split most of this thread off into it's own deal. We totally shit up something positive.
 
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