What's Cole Working on [as of 2020-3-5]

Masuriya

Dalayan Elder
I'm not sure where this 'Marza content is hard to box' is really coming from anyway, the only thing that's probably unboxable is Thaz 4 tower and that's mainly due to the earth wing basically adding an extra tier to the fight and the bonus mechanic that makes boxing a healer terrible at best and likely unfeasible. Ree is plenty boxable, Rujik is plenty boxable. Hell it's even easier now due to audio triggers, 2.5 hp buff and ease of access to class defining books.

This content is hard to box != I am required to pay attention to mechanics and not just push buttons while I watch youtube in the background
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
We should try a case study: clone some characters that are from other guilds for LA to play and tell us how many humans you would like us to use and we will see how well we do vs T13 content.
You would still be making content geared towards a specific group of people.

Not everyone is good at boxing and safe to say most are not capable of playing two characters well.

I mean if the goal is to make more content for only one group of players or for only those good at boxing than sure, but if the goal is to make content that people outside of that subset of players will get to enjoy then no it wouldnt do well.

Also most people dislike boxing and prefer to not box. The server population pretty much forces boxibg due to content design.

Making viable content that minimizes boxing would be a good thing.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
You would still be making content geared towards a specific group of people.

Not everyone is good at boxing and safe to say most are not capable of playing two characters well.

I mean if the goal is to make more content for only one group of players or for only those good at boxing than sure, but if the goal is to make content that people outside of that subset of players will get to enjoy then no it wouldnt do well.

Also most people dislike boxing and prefer to not box. The server population pretty much forces boxibg due to content design.

Making viable content that minimizes boxing would be a good thing.
Perhaps the solution is more 6/12 man content rather than easier 18 man content.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
Perhaps the solution is more 6/12 man content rather than easier 18 man content.
Yep, which is what I suggested earlier.

Its really going to come to that imo. Maybe even start reworking existing 18man content down to 12 man. I'm not talking about just my guild in this, Ive grouped with players from the other main/active guilds and the biggest thing holding back progression is too many boxes.

The menatlity of "well this is how we had to do it" is/has been a long running problem.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
We should try a case study: clone some characters that are from other guilds for LA to play and tell us how many humans you would like us to use and we will see how well we do vs T13 content.

I actually agree with some of what Gargate said on this one. Clone all the LA characters and see how well any other guild does vs said content with them. Quite a bit of the time in DF, Resurgum, SB, etc. we definitely had the gear, books, etc. for content, but even if we had the numbers, half the raid force had no business ever trying to play a second char on raid content, especially higher tier where encounters start to penalize the raid for one person's mess-up. Often, especially later on when we'd field like 8-12 real people for a raid, we'd just hit content with 13-16 chars tops on lots of stuff, because half the people on the server boxing is either useless, splits their attention enough that it negates their main, or it actually gets us killed.

Judging what the rest of the guilds on the server should be doing based on what the FWF, LA, TU, etc. guild does is and always has been silly. (kinda like how people wanted to judge where a shaman was as a class based on what Zurkka could do. Silly.) You guys are up there for a reason, and it isn't strong chars. The majority of the best players flock to that guild. Your characters end up the strongest because it's the guild with minimal bad players holding them back and it's the one guild where more than half of the players are actually motivated to do shit for themselves instead of get carried through everything. In any guild lower while there are obviously some great players, there are also some people that are just awful at computer games or super-unmotivated, and that has to be worked around.

Don't get me wrong. There are definitely times when guilds could do content higher than they try. I always thought CW should have gone higher, and probably prophecy at points too. But there's just an extra dynamic for the #2 and down guilds that the top one doesn't have to deal with as much. And the lower the population has gotten, the problem has just gotten far more glaring. Tevinter's right I think. Unfortunately atm, new 18-man content is still gonna be rough for anyone not LA, if not you guys too if enough don't reappear or if they do and don't stay long. and even if the population >does< recover, it's not really gonna hurt to have more 6 and 12-man stuff imo.
 

iBluNT

Dalayan Elder
It’s sad that a dev trying to be transparent about his work and intentions gets his thread blasted with this bullshit complaining about content designed for one guild.

Boxing has always been an issue in the past and now. I’m not trying to say “too bad” or “this is how everyone had to do it” but what happens when content gets tweaked to appeal to a smaller population and max raids stop at 12. This basically alters the already shaky and unclear tier system. Flash forward and the, in my opinion, pretty ground breaking quality of life changes actually attracts new people. Now we’re stuck with the issue that this content is too easy, doesn’t appeal to enough people, etc.

Are you guys even attempting to find new people? Backgearing unfortunately has to be a thing sometimes, but a lot of it comes down to just being able to push buttons most of the time. I can speak for a lot of people that when I first joined a raiding guild I didn’t even play my own toon for a few months on some of the progression content. It’s just how things go.

And Gargate, I don’t think you honestly expected an answer asking if a ranger bow is gonna be found in this new content. While I do realize there’s a pretty large DPS increase from Acid Tongue to WB, just the fact that you have a Saitha bow already puts you in the 90% max dps category for your class. It is unfortunate that probably the hardest t13 mob to access and kill has the best bow, but you’re not really missing out that much. I’d be happy to give you my info so you can parse the difference between Acid Tongue, Ravenclaw, Windblaze, and Thaz bow with every max dps option a ranger can get. The increases are pretty underwhelming, especially when RNG can basically let you out-dps Skaoli at any given time.

TLDR: see Marza’s post below
 
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Marza

*Unfortunately a Developer*
Perhaps the solution is more 6/12 man content rather than easier 18 man content.
Really this server has no business having 3 different content types. IMO 12 mans are fine as an idea, but not as an addition to what we currently had as the 6 and 18 man structure. Maybe the server is at a point where 18 mans are not really feasible for server, at which case the raid size might need to be brought down to 12 max instead of 18, much like it was dropped from 36 to 18 in the past. But it's too disruptive otherwise to have both 12 and 18 man "raids". Because you are either going to have more than 12 people due to being a healthy size and have to sit people out, or you are going to have 12 people but not enough for 18 man. I am not bringing up 6 mans because they are directed at a different style of play, its much more intimate as a single group, and it is already an pre existing needed group size for content (exp).

TLDR: it's a bad idea imo to create 12 man content alongside 18 man content, they are too similar in purpose and nature. If 18 man content isn't working anymore on the server then really all content should be brought down to 12 man.
 

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
You would still be making content geared towards a specific group of people.

It's comments like this that bother me. We killed Taeshlin for the first time on 9/27/2011. Over 7 years ago. I like killing new stuff. I don't feel that bad for others who can NOT kill things for whatever reason. I'd rather see players get better than have content made easier. Why should I be penalized and have to kill the same content for over 7 years because others fail to preform well?
 

Masuriya

Dalayan Elder
I actually agree with some of what Gargate said on this one. Clone all the LA characters and see how well any other guild does vs said content with them.

Poorly? You don't do 500 dps vs 2100 as a bard on a parse mob and chalk it up to 3 extra tiers of gear and tomes only. And 3 tiers is being pretty generous.

EDIT: Actually I want to see this too, can this happen? Gimme the stream.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
It’s sad that a dev trying to be transparent about his work and intentions gets his thread blasted with this bullshit complaining about content designed for one guild.

Boxing has always been an issue in the past and now. I’m not trying to say “too bad” or “this is how everyone had to do it” but what happens when content gets tweaked to appeal to a smaller population and max raids stop at 12. This basically alters the already shaky and unclear tier system. Flash forward and the, in my opinion, pretty ground breaking quality of life changes actually attracts new people. Now we’re stuck with the issue that this content is too easy, doesn’t appeal to enough people, etc.

Are you guys even attempting to find new people? Backgearing unfortunately has to be a thing sometimes, but a lot of it comes down to just being able to push buttons most of the time. I can speak for a lot of people that when I first joined a raiding guild I didn’t even play my own toon for a few months on some of the progression content. It’s just how things go.

And Gargate, I don’t think you honestly expected an answer asking if a ranger bow is gonna be found in this new content. While I do realize there’s a pretty large DPS increase from Acid Tongue to WB, just the fact that you have a Saitha bow already puts you in the 90% max dps category for your class. It is unfortunate that probably the hardest t13 mob to access and kill has the best bow, but you’re not really missing out that much. I’d be happy to give you my info so you can parse the difference between Acid Tongue, Ravenclaw, Windblaze, and Thaz bow with every max dps option a ranger can get. The increases are pretty underwhelming, especially when RNG can basically let you out-dps Skaoli at any given time.

TLDR: see Marza’s post below
I personally wasnt "blasting" anything, just giving feed back from the rest of the player base and seems to be a fair amount of support.

As far as parsing, myself and skos have fairly similar gear sets with a few minor differences and I have compared parses between him using windblaze vs my acid tongue and even him using acid tongue vs me using acid tongue. When we use the same bow were pretty equal with rng flux sometimes I lead sometimes he leads, when he uses WB theres a fair gap.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
It's comments like this that bother me. We killed Taeshlin for the first time on 9/27/2011. Over 7 years ago. I like killing new stuff. I don't feel that bad for others who can NOT kill things for whatever reason. I'd rather see players get better than have content made easier. Why should I be penalized and have to kill the same content for over 7 years because others fail to preform well?
Congrats you guys are good, like Huey said theres a reason.

Shrug, if progression is limited to a minority than eventually people leave and the population keeps decreasing.

Maybe it is time to evaluate how many players content is designed for.

To me it sounds like cole is taking the state of the server into consideration which is great. Never hurts to have additional feed back from players.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
Congrats you guys are good, like Huey said theres a reason.

Shrug, if progression is limited to a minority than eventually people leave and the population keeps decreasing.

Maybe it is time to evaluate how many players content is designed for.
The point of progression is to do progressively harder content. There is currently about 7 or 8 (t4/5-t13) tiers of content that many different guilds have progressed through, with the last tier only being beaten by 1 group. I don't think progression is really limited.
 

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
Congrats you guys are good, like Huey said theres a reason.

Shrug, if progression is limited to a minority than eventually people leave and the population keeps decreasing.

Maybe it is time to evaluate how many players content is designed for.

To me it sounds like cole is taking the state of the server into consideration which is great. Never hurts to have additional feed back from players.

Wasn't ready looking for a compliment I was just trying to illustrate why your "make more content for only one group of players" argument is a poor one.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
The point of progression is to do progressively harder content. There is currently about 7 or 8 (t4/5-t13) tiers of content that many different guilds have progressed through, with the last tier only being beaten by 1 group. I don't think progression is really limited.
T13 in its current form either requires a full raid of bodies (or close to it) or people really good at boxing which most players are not, or at least not enough to do t13.

Full raid of bodies is pretty rare these days. Other guilds are also being held back by too many boxes. Its a problem and Im suggesting possible solutions, being constructive.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
Wasn't ready looking for a compliment I was just trying to illustrate why your "make more content for only one group of players" argument is a poor one.
But its not in fact your point of that you guys can do it so everyone else can/should is borderline fallacy.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
That's my point. For the rest of the server, get better, or get more people just isn't much of an option. There's very minimal shit I could ever do about people that ran into drakes or puddles or wisps or whirlwinds constantly besides show them and tell them don't do it. How well does that work? Do we just say screw the unskilled or casual players...this game isn't for them? and we tried to recruit in resurgum and df, but we lost people either to frustration from having to backgear for years or from people guild hopping or splitting off and forming LA, etc. Emzur, you were there for some of it. Did you do anymore than I did about our people that held us back? Was what we did do even that effective? and Kedrin:

Why should I be penalized and have to kill the same content for over 7 years because others fail to preform well?

So what do you tell the people that actually can be functional that didn't make the LA jump? Make the jump? Quit? I don't think this is much of a screw LA discussion as it is a keep the rest in mind thing.

I won't dispute the whole narrative about not abandoning 18-man content. If the server pop recovers, absolutely. I still say some more 6 and 12 wouldn't hurt. But the current reality of the server is what it is.

The point of progression is to do progressively harder content. There is currently about 7 or 8 (t4/5-t13) tiers of content that many different guilds have progressed through, with the last tier only being beaten by 1 group. I don't think progression is really limited.

but you actually have to be able to do it and have the numbers to do so. We spun our wheels in DF for its entire short existence. We had grand plans, but we lost folks as quickly as we could recruit. It sucked. Progression for over half of us wouldn't even have been to the content half of us were already past.

Also, I barely have a dog in this fight at this point, having not logged in in almost 3 months since DF got smashed. I'm not trying to bash anything. It's purely observational. Dev-Cole, this is no slight whatsoever on anything you're doing.

And more importantly, Emzur's right. This all should probably be in a different thread, valid points or not.
 

Gargate

Dalayan Elder
Agree huey.

Sounds like dev-Cole is going to be a good addition to the game. Myself Im just putting my observations out there and some suggestions that would make things more viable to the other 75% of the server.
 

Paxit

Dalayan Elder
Movement fights pose a problem and its unrealistic to say we did it so can you, timing is a big issue in the boxed environment we are in and the most boxed class sadly is a healer ( Cleric's wru ) the choice between moving and casting a heal is often the difference between winning and losing raid content. Try to take that in consideration when making any content whatever the tier is for 18 man fights.
 

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
Movement fights pose a problem and its unrealistic to say we did it so can you, timing is a big issue in the boxed environment we are in and the most boxed class sadly is a healer ( Cleric's wru ) the choice between moving and casting a heal is often the difference between winning and losing raid content. Try to take that in consideration when making any content whatever the tier is for 18 man fights.

If movement is out the window how do you want fights to get harder? Do you just want mobs to have more HP and hit harder? Just a liner progression of tank and spank mobs?
 
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