What should be done for L65 Mage?
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BranFlakes
Dalayan Adventurer
They tried to look at rangers, but everyone they found was only a corpse...
I am loveing the idears there cyzaine. Looks great, and fun. Makes alot of "useless" AAs usefull aswell.
Please make a new tread about othere classes if that is what you want to talk about =).
At the risk of sounding like a compleat idiot; Is there a "Class visions" tread somewhere? Where in the base idear for eatch class is lined up. Would be nice to know what that was =).
Please make a new tread about othere classes if that is what you want to talk about =).
At the risk of sounding like a compleat idiot; Is there a "Class visions" tread somewhere? Where in the base idear for eatch class is lined up. Would be nice to know what that was =).
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Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
WOOT! My Pet Buff Fusion idea was used ! Even if its AA based and not spell based its still cool
Just one question?
If tomes are intended to make mages stronger and more wanted in the end game, why is the pet tomes not class tomes?
When they are opened up for BST and NEC, doesnt that make strong classes (yes, when BST get the runic pet swarm they are REALLY strong... High DPS, heals, slows, tanking ability, the ability to link hp with pet and so on) even more strong.
The AC and HP tomes... BST always have more of those
Resists are usually lower on casters than on melee, since casters can outrange some of the AE's, so the resist tomes also gives the BST pet a larger boost than the MAG pet.
So unless the pets have a mana pool for blasts, and there is a share mana tome too, the arch class tomes doesnt help much as I see it.
With the new ability to see dot dps, we now see how big DPS a necro is... Mages are still the load up and do SB DS and some summons class for the high tier encounters.
Yes I am raiding at tier 8, yes I can DPS, but I would say... If anyone ask me, should they bring a runic bst or mage, I would say take the bst...
Damn I am the redheaded stepchild that gets to play with the others just when there isnt anyone else around.
What I see needed to make the mages stronger...
Tome to reduce timer for Host of the elements (wouldnt mind being able to do it at almost the same pace as bst runic swarm)
Have step 2 of the pet tomes be mage class tomes, still available in refuge. (or other tomes that make the mage pet more likely to survive than the other classes pets)
Satrig
Mage in Chaotic winds
If tomes are intended to make mages stronger and more wanted in the end game, why is the pet tomes not class tomes?
When they are opened up for BST and NEC, doesnt that make strong classes (yes, when BST get the runic pet swarm they are REALLY strong... High DPS, heals, slows, tanking ability, the ability to link hp with pet and so on) even more strong.
The AC and HP tomes... BST always have more of those
Resists are usually lower on casters than on melee, since casters can outrange some of the AE's, so the resist tomes also gives the BST pet a larger boost than the MAG pet.
So unless the pets have a mana pool for blasts, and there is a share mana tome too, the arch class tomes doesnt help much as I see it.
With the new ability to see dot dps, we now see how big DPS a necro is... Mages are still the load up and do SB DS and some summons class for the high tier encounters.
Yes I am raiding at tier 8, yes I can DPS, but I would say... If anyone ask me, should they bring a runic bst or mage, I would say take the bst...
Damn I am the redheaded stepchild that gets to play with the others just when there isnt anyone else around.
What I see needed to make the mages stronger...
Tome to reduce timer for Host of the elements (wouldnt mind being able to do it at almost the same pace as bst runic swarm)
Have step 2 of the pet tomes be mage class tomes, still available in refuge. (or other tomes that make the mage pet more likely to survive than the other classes pets)
Satrig
Mage in Chaotic winds
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
Numbers to back up your claims on BSTs?
Everyone already knew Necros were number one in high tier old world encounters. Being able to see the DPS doesn't really change that. Parse the DPS in a situation that excludes festering curse, or on the 2nd necro in a raid, and you'll find their numbers to be alot more reasonable. Take this from someone who both has access to the code and who mained a necro in a guild that would sometimes take 3 necros (you pick 3: Tyrsell, Ahrmen, Larmin, Luas rarely, and guest staring Temellin!) to a raid.
Pets are a feature for three classes, and a fun option for others. But as you tier up they becoming lame and un-fun. They all need some survivability, this is why the archtype pet tomes are available to anyone with a pet. The mage depends on his more than the others, so the solution to him is NOT in the tomes. That is kind of the point of thread as it is moving now. Obviously a necro is viable without his pet, you claim a BST is viable without his (I disagree here). The short comings with mages begin to appear before the tomes could fix them, and thus should be addressed before the tomes. The tomes are just continued help, that (hopefully) make things more fun for everyone.
Everyone already knew Necros were number one in high tier old world encounters. Being able to see the DPS doesn't really change that. Parse the DPS in a situation that excludes festering curse, or on the 2nd necro in a raid, and you'll find their numbers to be alot more reasonable. Take this from someone who both has access to the code and who mained a necro in a guild that would sometimes take 3 necros (you pick 3: Tyrsell, Ahrmen, Larmin, Luas rarely, and guest staring Temellin!) to a raid.
Pets are a feature for three classes, and a fun option for others. But as you tier up they becoming lame and un-fun. They all need some survivability, this is why the archtype pet tomes are available to anyone with a pet. The mage depends on his more than the others, so the solution to him is NOT in the tomes. That is kind of the point of thread as it is moving now. Obviously a necro is viable without his pet, you claim a BST is viable without his (I disagree here). The short comings with mages begin to appear before the tomes could fix them, and thus should be addressed before the tomes. The tomes are just continued help, that (hopefully) make things more fun for everyone.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Just throwing this out here, BUT:
If you consider BST runic, did you consider MAG runic as well, I mean, at all?
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Pre-runic pets all I see this doing is helping balance out the huge gap between the relic mage pet and the last beastlord pet.
Volkier
Dalayan Beginner
I don't think a BST is viable WITHOUT his pet - he would also want his pet up - but I would say that a mage is a lot more RELIANT on his pet to stay alive / outside raid encounters. Getting all classes viable and different for a raid is great, but getting carried away and balancing EVERYTHING out against ONLY high end raids is... well... face it - what ended up screwing up live in the first place (ok - they basically tried to balance everything out in every situation which screwed is up, but still the point remains).
A beastlord's pet is more of an extention of himself - from the looks of it based on spells in SoD (and playing a BST myself for years on live - though I know it's slightly different), whereas a mage's pet is more like the main party in the 'duo' of a mage and his pet, with the mage acting in the background healing and providing additional dps (to the pet - not the other way round). At least thats how it seems to 'feel' ::\
A beastlord's pet is more of an extention of himself - from the looks of it based on spells in SoD (and playing a BST myself for years on live - though I know it's slightly different), whereas a mage's pet is more like the main party in the 'duo' of a mage and his pet, with the mage acting in the background healing and providing additional dps (to the pet - not the other way round). At least thats how it seems to 'feel' ::\
darksabbath
Dalayan Master
I don't have parses to back this up at all, right now, but I'll say it anyways. Bst pet is half my dps. I probably don't kill much of anything that is dark blue without my pet.. or a whole lot of downtime. Am I best bst out there? No. Highest tiered? No again. But then again, you have to consider everyone in a class, not just the top 5.
But this thread is about helping MAGES out. Comparing BST and Mage is apples and oranges, really. Yes, both are pet classes, but then again, apples and oranges are both fruit. The similarity stops there in both sides of the analogy.
But this thread is about helping MAGES out. Comparing BST and Mage is apples and oranges, really. Yes, both are pet classes, but then again, apples and oranges are both fruit. The similarity stops there in both sides of the analogy.
IMO there are 3 problem areas
(1) Mages are cheated on crits on rain spells (PLEASE PLEASE can we address this)
(2) There are far too many encounters where mages are unable to use there full arsenal (are there ANY high end raid zones where a mage is NOT disadvantaged to a lesser or greater extent)
(3) (and a very distant third) Problems with Mage pet.
Unfortunately it appears item 3 is the only one getting any real attention
(1) Mages are cheated on crits on rain spells (PLEASE PLEASE can we address this)
(2) There are far too many encounters where mages are unable to use there full arsenal (are there ANY high end raid zones where a mage is NOT disadvantaged to a lesser or greater extent)
(3) (and a very distant third) Problems with Mage pet.
Unfortunately it appears item 3 is the only one getting any real attention
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
(1) Everybody gets 1/3 crits on rains, not just Mages. This is a relict from the time when rains were hitting 3 targets, and it made sense. Now that they only hit 2 targets, increasing it to 1/2 crits might be in line. Everything above that not.
(2) Lets see:
(3) While leveling up, and also through the first few tiers, the mages Pet is a durable solid companion. Unfortunately it doesn't scale as well as PC's through the tiers, so that around tier6, it becomes more and more of an efort to keep it up, to the point where the Mage simply can't do it on his own, and the average healer is too busy/lazy to be bothered with it. Thus, pet durability IS a problem, and this real problem gets adressed.
(2) Lets see:
- Mages can't rain if there are mezzes (and adds might or might not be a problem).
- There is an ocean of Paladin tears around high MR mobs.
- Warriors can't tank those auto-riposte mobs.
- Every melee (MNK, BST, BRD, ROG) has a hard time with those WW mobs.
- Ask a Necro about mirror golems. (Be ready to hand him some tissues!)
- Try being a Wizard in like PoFrost - can you do things? Yes. Can you use your best tricks? Hell no!
(3) While leveling up, and also through the first few tiers, the mages Pet is a durable solid companion. Unfortunately it doesn't scale as well as PC's through the tiers, so that around tier6, it becomes more and more of an efort to keep it up, to the point where the Mage simply can't do it on his own, and the average healer is too busy/lazy to be bothered with it. Thus, pet durability IS a problem, and this real problem gets adressed.
No it does not make sense.
A one percent crit is exactly equivalent to a one percent increase in overall damage except for rains where it is a one third percent increase in overall damage. We are comparing the amount of damage you are doing without a crit to the amount of damage you are doing with a crit. The number of targets you are hitting is completely irrelevant.
To be a comparable INCREASE you should get a 1% crit for EACH wave AND if you are attacking 2 targets when you crit BOTH targets should get double damage.
If and only If both these conditions are true then 1 level increase in crit will translate into a 1% increase in overall damage.
Actually of course this is not true for mage because he would still not get the increase on the damage his pet is doing - but it would go some way to addressing the inequality in treatment.
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
I disagree with you.
(1) If you want to crit with spells alot, you should have rolled a Wizard, whose entire mechanic revolves around crits. Most mages rolled mages because of the pet, and I think any changes to the class SHOULD revolve around that. Not in making them wizards 'but with rains!' (which wizards get anyway). 1-65 it was you and your pets, trying to make a place in this crazy world of ours. Somehow as you go up the tiers we got away from that and made you a gimped wizard instead.
(2) Everyone has encounters they can't do. Mages just tend to all be in one zone (ToT, and to a lesser extent Pofire) rather than spread out. I could see where you could see frustration if all you ever do is ToT, but a necro loses his efficient, reliable, fire DoTs there too.
(3) As above, I think most people chose a mage for the pet, not to be a crappy wizard. If we have to have 14 classes, we should strive to keep them unique, not just close variants of one another.
On a different topic, after my tests yesterday, it became clear that the share form with pet thing is going to work better than expected! Just need to finalize the stats on the spell.
Of interest, the elemental pets (1-63) versus the relic pet, have HUGE resist differences. Fire pet, as an example, has resists at 30 300 20 50 50 (ya don't ask), versus the relic whose at 80 80 80 80 80. If it wasn't for how ridiculously many more hp (near 4.5x) the relic has over the 63, the it would probably be a nerf.
Knowing this, I'd like the elemental form to grant up to 100 of the particular resist to the mage pet without giving the mage himself that much. He's already getting a good, stackable, bonus he didn't have before from the proposed changes, he doesn't need it THAT good. I'm working on making that possible.
If anyone has any particular thoughts on other abilities to grant for the particular forms, I'm open to suggestions. I've been informed +atk on pets really isn't noticeable, so I'm dropping that idea. I wasn't too crazy about Dzillons 2 resist idea either, for reasons that make sense if you consider the resists of old pets and what could be for the runic pet.
I am obviously failing to make myself clear here.
I am not asking to crit a lot with spells. I am simply asking to crit EXACTLY the same as ALL other non raining classes.
Mages DO NOT suffer in simply one zone. Please name ANY high end zone where mages are not disadvantaged.
I started this thread because I believed that at lower levels Mages were on a par with other classes but get left behind in higher content. Failure to get the benefit from crits that other classes get and content consideration are MUCH bigger issues (at least for raiding) than anything you can do for pets which represent only a small fraction of mage damage.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Zones where mobs have normal fire resistance. You know.. not ToT or PoFire..
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