What should be done for L65 Mage?

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Zones where mobs have normal fire resistance. You know.. not ToT or PoFire..

This is wrong (very incomplete rather)

Mages are disadvantaged when
(a) Mobs are fire resistant
(b) Mobs are magic resistant
(c) Mobs are being mezzed
(d) Mobs cannot be rained on for other tactical considerations

Mage pets are in trouble when
(e) Mobs autoriposte
(f) Mobs enrage
(g) Mobs do large AE's

In fact if you look at all the examples Nwaij gave of problems other classes had - you can add Mage to ALL of them.

So I repeat my question. What zone do Mages NOT have problems in?
 
This is wrong (very incomplete rather)

Mages are disadvantaged when
(a) Mobs are fire resistant
(b) Mobs are magic resistant
(c) Mobs are being mezzed
(d) Mobs cannot be rained on for other tactical considerations
Guess what.
  • There is an ocean of Paladin tears around high MR mobs.
  • Warriors can't tank those auto-riposte mobs.
  • Every melee (MNK, BST, BRD, ROG)is disadvantaged with WW mobs and/or mobs with high AC.
  • Necros are disadvantaged if mobs are resistant to anything, cause they use everything.
  • Wizards are disadvantaged when mobs are cold resistant and/or magic resistant.

Mage pets are in trouble when
(e) Mobs autoriposte
(f) Mobs enrage
(g) Mobs do large AE's

So wait, going by THIS
(3) (and a very distant third) Problems with Mage pet.
, pet iss ues are marginal at best. Also, they are shared by any and all pet classes, and except for the AE part, very well avoidable if you put in brainworks worth 2 cp when you send your pet on the mob.


In fact if you look at all the examples Nwaij gave of problems other classes had - you can add Mage to ALL of them.
Your kidding, right? What problems do mages have with cold resistant mobs? Where is your problem with mirror golems, besides that you actually need to think about what you do and can't spam one rain after another? When did you ever even TRY to tank an autoriposte mob?

So I repeat my question. What zone do Mages NOT have problems in?
Whats your problem in PoFrost? Mobs there are neither high FR/MR, nor is mezzing an option, at all.
Whats wrong with IP? Mobs don't AE, no mezzing, quite often there are even double pulls on trash.
Whats your problem with Yclist?
 
I started this thread because I believed that at lower levels Mages were on a par with other classes but get left behind in higher content. Failure to get the benefit from crits that other classes get and content consideration are MUCH bigger issues (at least for raiding) than anything you can do for pets which represent only a small fraction of mage damage.

Just for that last part, where pets represent only a small fraction of mage damage... Have you parsed your pet?

I did a look at the numbers made during a bunch of fights with 2 mages+ their pets yesterday (Some mezzed mobs).
Mage 1 40% of the damage came from pet
Mage 2 45% of the damage came from pet

From some LT raiding the other nigth the numbers looked like this (No mezzed mobs included in numbers):
38% was from mage pet

Baldakans some days ago (Some mezzed mobs)
43% was from mage pet

Mixed mobs, none mezzed all rainable:
44% was from mage pet.


I would not really call ~40% damage a small fraction....
 
I am obviously failing to make myself clear here.
I am not asking to crit a lot with spells. I am simply asking to crit EXACTLY the same as ALL other non raining classes.

Mages DO NOT suffer in simply one zone. Please name ANY high end zone where mages are not disadvantaged.

I started this thread because I believed that at lower levels Mages were on a par with other classes but get left behind in higher content. Failure to get the benefit from crits that other classes get and content consideration are MUCH bigger issues (at least for raiding) than anything you can do for pets which represent only a small fraction of mage damage.

You're completely ignoring how amazingly mana-efficient mage rains are. On a damage-per-mana standpoint they are among the best spells in the game, even if they don't crit as often as straight nukes. People understand your point about the math just fine, but nobody except you thinks rains are underpowered.

Every class has advantages and disadvantages that vary based on the zone/encounter/strategy in question. I think the burden of proof here lies on you- go parse a bunch of fights that shows how woefully broken mages are compared to other DPS classes and maybe you'll be taken seriously.
 
I crunched a bunch of numbers regarding the crit discussion. Unfortunately I'm leaning towards Nwaijs statement. Comparing archaic rain to archaic wizard nuke, if ANYTHING rains should be 1/2 rather than 1/3, and even at 1/2 they are over performing noticeably. 0 penalty is an over-performance on 1 mob and a drastic over performance on 2 mobs.

As you weren't considerate enough to show me your work, I won't be showing you mine. You get to take my word for it like you expected me to take yours.
 
Still dont have my runic, but I have numbers about tome benefit comparison.

Cyzain, can I PM you the numbers so you can see what players I used for comparison?
 
What about adding secondary procs such ad:
fire pet -> ac debuff
earth -> cripple/attack debuff
water -> hate proc or malo or something else useful
air -> tash

I don't know how liked/useful/op this could get/be
 
Still dont have my runic, but I have numbers about tome benefit comparison.

Cyzain, can I PM you the numbers so you can see what players I used for comparison?

Can you just post these in this thread so that players can mercilessly pick over the information?
 
Being a math person, I've never understood why the crit chance is lowered for rains. The only real effect lowering the crit chance has is lower the effect of gear, buffs, and AA that give critical hits.

Assumptions:

1) For a mage to have a 20% chance to crit on a nuke gives him a roughly 20% increase in his average DPS from that nuke.

2) For a rain, he 20% crit chance becomes ~6.7% chance to crit, giving roughly a 6.7% increase in average DPS from that rain.

All this does is nerf the bonuses to crit chance. This never made sense to me. If it's balanced around this, it should work somewhat alright, but I figured the balancing aspect would be based around the rain's base damage and mana cost instead.
 
I crunched a bunch of numbers regarding the crit discussion. Unfortunately I'm leaning towards Nwaijs statement. Comparing archaic rain to archaic wizard nuke, if ANYTHING rains should be 1/2 rather than 1/3, and even at 1/2 they are over performing noticeably. 0 penalty is an over-performance on 1 mob and a drastic over performance on 2 mobs.

As you weren't considerate enough to show me your work, I won't be showing you mine. You get to take my word for it like you expected me to take yours.

OK

Take say a rogue who makes 100 hits each of damage r giiving total damage 100r
Now consider identical situation but with crit 3
Then you would expect 3 of these damage r to be replaced by damage 2r giving total damage 103r

Damage increase is 103r - 100r which is a 3% increase as expected.

Now a mage who does 100 waves of damage m.
Identical mage but with crit 3 will do domage 101m because each wave will have a 1% crit chance.
Damage increase for mage is 101m - 100m ie 1%.

Note this has nothing to do with absolute values of r or m or anything to do with the number of targets to achieve m or anything to do with mana efficiency.
The only issue I am measuring is the INCREASE each class will obtain by getting its respective crits.

I have no idea what you are trying to measure but I can be absolutely certain it is NOT measuring the benefit each class is obtaining from crits.

Now I have shown you mine - can I see yours?
 
Feel free to correct me if you think my math is suspect here. All situations obviously assume you are never resisted.

In terms of math, 3T and 1T, 0% penalty are equivalent.

1% crit can be thought of as 1% of the bonus 'possible' damage you can do. So every x crit raises what you'll get out of this. I demonstrate this below are the numbers for comparison at 3%. Plus some hypotheticals.

Archaic Sun Storm 1 target: 985/wave : 2955 total : 5910 possible
Archaic Sun Storm 2 target: 1970/wave : 5910 total : 11820 possible
Archaic: Moon Comet : 2575 total : 5150 crit : 10300 ulti : 20600 prim

MAG 3% crit rate (1/3 penalty | 1/2 penalty)
1T: 05910 * .01 = 059.1 | 05910 * .015 = 88.65
2T: 11820 * .01 = 118.2 | 11820 * .015 = 177.3
3T: 17730 * .01 = 177.3 | 17730 * .015 = 354.6


WIZ 3% crit rate (0 penalty)
1T: 05150 * .03 = 154 + (ult calcs) + (prim calcs)

What does this mean? For every 3% crit, the mage on 1 target can expect an average 59.1 more damage per rain than if he had 0% crit. So 6% would be 118. For every 3% a wizard can expect around 154 + values for ult and prim that we won't be giving out here.

Those are with actual numbers. Now rains are balanced around 2 mobs. You are supposed to be less than optimal on a single target. If you wanted top single target spell DPS be a wizard. Given your numbers and your example as shown...

Now a mage who does 100 waves of damage m.
Mage but with crit 3 will do domage 101m because each wave will have a 1% crit chance.
Damage increase for mage is 101m - 100m ie 1%.


Correct! 100 waves on 1 target with 3% crit only nets you a 1% increase. But wait, rains are meant to be done on 2 targets! What happens in that scenario.

Now a mage who does 100 waves of damage m. Multiple this by 2 targets.
Mage but with crit 3 will do damage 101m
x 2 targets because each wave will have a 1% crit chance.
Damage increase for mage is 202m - 200m ie 2%.


2 targets doubled the benefit of the crit. Imagine that. Now as Nwaij said, if anything, it should be reduced from 1/3 to 1/2. Below is 2 targets if we did that. Again at 3% crit chance.

Now a mage who does 100 waves of damage m. Multiple this by 2 targets
Identical mage but with crit 3 will do damage 101.5m
x 2 because each wave will have a 1.5% crit chance.
Damage increase for mage is 203m - 200m ie 3%.


Now on 2 targets you get the full benefit. And at no penalty like you are encouraging?

Now a mage who does 100 waves of damage m. Multiple this by 2 targets
Identical mage but with crit 3 will do damage 103m
x 2 because each wave will have a 1.5% crit chance.
Damage increase for mage is 206m - 200m ie 6%.


Are you seeing the dilemma now? Now your getting more benefit from the crit then a non raining class.

But wait, while you cast, your pet can be in there attacking independently! And guess what, that damage is nothing to sneeze at. And you can send in some monster summons. Free damage there!

What isn't intended is that pet dying when a mob himself sneezes 5k damage out, that it can't defend against.

If you are still not convinced and have a parser, I can set up an environment with no crit penalty and you can rain to your hearts content until you get some averages you think are accurate. Be sure to have 3 or 4 hours free to do this. Then you can do it again at 1/3 rate. You can see the actual DPS drop that way. Or just follow your own math here.
 
For every 100 casts, a rain has 300 waves. THAT's why you need the penalty. There are 200 more oportunities to crit than a wizard at an equal number of casts. So, Bridger, while your math is correct, you're working the wrong problem.

Scott
 
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Now this is where you are wrong!!!!!
A 200 damage without crit and 202 damage with a crit is a ONE PERCENT increase.

As I said before the actual level of damage or whether it is on one or two mobs is totally irrelevant.

You just get a one percent increase on that fraction of your damage that is not being done by pets.

Got excited there did ya? Fair enough. I gaffed there. I think you did too in not including the waves. What say you to this. In all case we assume a +3% crit bonus.

Wiz does 100x damage in 100 casts
Wiz with crit 3% will do average 103x (3 crits every 100 casts)
Damage increase for mage is 103x - 100x ie 3%.

Mage does 100x damage in 100 casts
Mage with crit 3% will do average 109x (Here we play with 0 penalty. 9 crits every 100 casts)
Mage with crit 1% will do average 103x (Here we play with cur penalty. 3 crits every 100 casts)
Damage increase for mage is 109x - 100x ie 3%.
Damage increase for mage is 103x - 100x ie 3%.


I still hold that my first set of posted numbers using actual in game is an accurate look anyway. Any more holes in this?

I'm I'm wrong on this I have no issue admitting so, and perhaps changing things. I just don't think I am at this point.
 

Mage with crit 3% will do average 109x (Here we play with 0 penalty. 9 crits every 100 casts)

I disagree. You'll get 9 crits every 100 casts, but each crit will only increase the damage of the single wave. You'll have 9 crits every 300 waves, and each wave does 1/3 of the total damage, giving you 103x damage.

Not knowing exactly what the formulas are for crits across waves of rain, I see a couple of unlikely scenarios not mentioned, but none of them will give this result. I'm gonna hop in IRC in case this needs more discussion.
 
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