We All Love Monks, Here

AngryCow said:
Harkening back to the old DnD days, what about WIS? Monks get all sorts of bonuses for having a decent WIS mod in our tabletop forefather, with much the same lore/logic that I think we are looking for in here.
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you get a pet and you become a beastlord.
 
I appreciate the logic, but BST have the Wisdom-Puncher turf sorta locked down.

I'm moving Current Progress into the OP so I can stop spamming posts every time stuff gets added in.
 
Dinadass said:
I don't care what stat is picked as long as I don't have to go get under tiered items that were previously awful but are all of a sudden nearly required.

You know, exactly what happened with the H2H overcap system that everyone agrees was bad and should not be repeated.
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Based solely on the fact that progression will be much smoother and spread out over 20 item slots, this should not be an issue.
 
I totally agree that items should have some trade-offs, and new loot should't always be better than previous stuff in every way, but the issue with T13 gear is that it was mostly created with the theme "give gear cool unique effects, and less stats", then the cool unique effects got mostly removed or severely nerfed and the stats never got looked at again. Players have been whining about this ever since the nerfs, but in a lot of cases it didn't matter because players could reach skill/stat caps even with some 'lacking' items.

The simple fact is, most of the T13 stuff that was changed needs to be looked at, and gain some raw stats to be in like with previous power gain from gear. There are a ton of item comparisons of a T11 loot and a T13 loot, and the T13 loot will have like 20 more hp, less stats, and similar focus/mods/etc. Any previous gain of two tiers would be more like 60hp, 40 total stats, better focus/mods/etc.

I know there is a worry about players getting too powerful, but some hp/mana, (over cap) stats, skill mods, etc aren't making anyone super powerful. The stuff that made players crazy powerful were channeling, 2min vah, crazy procs and clickies, etc. Nearly all of that stuff is gone now. Giving some high end gear a bit of hp/mana/stats won't come close to replacing that stuff, it will put things more where they should have been to begin with.
 
Super excited about this and it is all starting to look really good.


Of the current changes I want to stress that all of the 6 monk abilities should not be fixed hard coded amounts but rather should scale with something, maybe a primary stat like has been said. ( You are probably already doing this, but I didn't see it mentioned) otherwise we will be back at the drawing board again in tier 15.

Also I don't know if the lifetap could be moved over to the defensive tree? I feel like it might be more suited for tanking/auxing. I don't see it being used that much in aggressive when there are better DPS options. Maybe switch with eagle strike? I can see wanting to stun or interrupt in aggressive stance and I feel like that also thematically it is better as an attack from behind. Also it would give some options rather than "mash this button" while you dps if you had to watch for stun opportunities.

Also having the lifetap on defensive would give you a button to press when you are aux tanking on raids because you probably don't want to be taunting and so little is stunnable (I assume you would want to be in defensive while auxing. but that leads me to the next point)

I am assuming that the defensive and offensive stances give some sort of base effects, increased offensive /decreased defense for offensive and and vice versa? Also will there be a cool-down switching between them and if so how long?
 
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Lifetap on defensive means you probably wouldn't be able to use it while DPSing+aux tanking. Switching one of the defensive things to a self heal that is a bit bigger than the lifetap might be a good idea. The combination of defensive instead of offensive stance and not having boot procs would be a pretty substantial dps loss in any case so hopefully that is considered.

I use the lifetap combo a lot and the new one that I tested was quite a bit worse than the combo, I'm hoping that changes.
 
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Slaariel said:
I would much rather tie it to an aggregate stat like Strength.. that way the power increase still goes up by tier but it is not tied to one slot and requires, as most power upgrades do, a comprehensive set of higher tier gear to take advantage of it all. I think 500 strength is reasonable for bleeding-edge Monkery or I could make it a different stat.

Anyway here is what is coded in currently as an update:

- Monks have a discipline system where their 6 combat moves have extra abilities under certain circumstances:

-- NORMAL STANCE
-- No moves have power-forms (pure discipline generation)

-- AGGRESSIVE STANCE:
-- Kick now has the small lifetap
-- Round kick will now do an AE attack
-- Flying kick has a large increase to base damage

-- DEFENSIVE STANCE:
-- Tiger claw will generate extra aggro
-- Eagle strike will stun or interrupt
-- Dragon punch / tail thing will kb/root

-- MOST OTHER STANCES:
-- Removed (I am looking for how to squeeze Ethereal back in here... I will probably just put it on a timer unrelated to discipline).

- A mob is never behind a Monk, ever. (PERMANENT /s 6).
- Flat Hand-to-hand bonus removed and looking for a way to integrate reasonably with gear progression.

- Monk Aux-Tanking Suite:
-- A Monk aux-tanking a mob raises the aux cap for that mob slightly.
-- A Monk has slightly increased aux contribution.
-- If armed, a Monk takes less damage from a mob it is aux-tanking.
-- If armed, a Monk innately dodges more attacks from a mob it is aux-tanking.

This is getting closer to my vision of a more durable fighter with a small amount of interactivity in combat choices and the possibility of adding utility along with the damage and tankiness one expects of a Monk. Also, permanent /s 6 solidifies their role as pullers without stepping on anything else in the raid game.
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This is the right direction (he said without bias: 360) but has some problems. The primary one that I am seeing through skimming this thread is that ideas are just being shot all over the place. If the goal is to create a class built on a bunch of disparate ideas without a clear plan then, well, just leave Monks alone because that is what they currently are.

Adding aux tank functionality is great for raids, but limiting aggro strikes (which sort of always work now) to defensive stance is pain in the dick for the duoing monk or sometimes grouping monk. Monks cannot lifetap while tanking? That sounds handy. Cannot interrupt while dpsing- swell! Etc... If you wanted to go the full nine here you could create two or more full fleshed out stances instead of tacking limited toolboxes onto aggressive/defensive. That, or just have one of two abilities that change functionality with stance (hint: flying kick) and leave the rest as always on utility.
 
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I agree really. Lifetap in defensive and interrupt in aggressive. Also I personally think it would be cool to have 2 different stance's for this that provide certain bonus to certain other than the traditional avoidance at atk speed loss and atk speed at avoidance lost.

I guess the thing I am after is uniqueness for a mnk. Which is why I like the aux thing. No other class has that. I would say implement the different bonuses for different weapons as a reason for monks to use said different weapons instead of oh DPS? im going h2h with all this and staying that way unless I need HP/stats. at which point im using 2 1handers cause they give more HP/stats than 2hb + more DPS so Hang 2hb.
 
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Slaar you said in ooc that this was nearly ready, any more updates? If you want to do another round of ingame tests and feedback I'm more than willing as are many other monks, I'm sure.

Basically monks aren't top tier dps, so they need something to justify bringing them to 6mans/raids, especially at the high end where splitting is rarely necessary. Aux tanking bonus while not losing dps from attacking from the front would be great. Then again, most high tier content has frontal effects of some kind and it sounds like we'd still be a burden on healers if we were attacking them from the front so I'm not sure how useful it'll end up being.

Hopefully the new system doesn't negatively impact our soloing/duoing ability and isn't as clunky as the combo system. It sounds like a major overhaul when I would have been happy with the combo system remaining but being tweaked a bit.
 
While I was messing around a friend was on my character and mistook Elemental Fist proc for the stance procs and it hit me. The Offensive Stances should be the Fire proc stance and the defensive should be the Cold stance. Maybe edit the Cold proc to add like a little armor in the sense of you encase yourself in ice. and teh fire proc maybe add a tiny bit of dmg (or keep it the way it is as the flying kick dmg increase and such increases the Stances DPS) because the DPS from /s 2 is proven better but as stated might not be needed. Another Idea is that the Fire proc instead of dmg increases Atk speed (song buff).

This is really just my idea of a way to make Mnks a little Different and get outta the /s 2 and /s 3 while still keeping Stances and getting cool effects outta them.

I wouldn't expect the Procs to be Huge bonuses. Like 5% or less over-haste and maybe around 50 or less AC (50 might even be too much)

This idea also works well for lore as obviously using fire your atks would cause them to do more Dmg so Flying Kick is doing more dmg cause your burning them at the same moment. and Ice would be useful for Defensive cause they have to cut through ice

On a side note if The AC idea seems meh a Rune might work as The enemy knocks the ice off of you, but obviously the ice is absorbing the dmg in this process.
 
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On a side note while discussing elemental fists it sure would be nice if the procs did not count as spells or however/whatever things like Gongo, Researcher thekrak and other bosses who have mechanics similar to this are concerned. (similarly bard aa innate proc)
 
Cinny said:
On a side note while discussing elemental fists it sure would be nice if the procs did not count as spells or however/whatever things like Gongo, Researcher thekrak and other bosses who have mechanics similar to this are concerned. (similarly bard aa innate proc)
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They don't, same as other procs or clickies. Gotta cost mana to count afaik.
 
seems to be the case on gongo, we had some people claiming differently a while ago when using Rbow/monks on researcher thekrak IDK if the code is different or what.
 
definitely doesn't matter on gongo, thek rak however emotes about all procs but it seems like it doesnt do anything
 
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