We All Love Monks, Here

Did a few 10 minute parses with full buffs. Auto attack and spamming flying kick (no combos since the accuracy bonus from them could skew things and won't be present in the new system afaik) from both the front and back of a mob-

650 front
735 back

Had about a 8% increase in melee and kick accuracy. My DPS from the front would actually be higher if I was tanking since ripostes and procs are decent with Horok and Fel'talla, but that 650 number is with somebody else holding aggro.

Nebi said:
so you want burst dps, tanking, and sustained dps....


rogues ....?
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Yes I also want to be able to heal and CC.

For real though, I don't think anyone expects to do rogue DPS levels. But hell, rangers currently do top tier dps and great burst all while being ranged, and second tier tanks, and having healing and some other utility. Rogues are kinda lacking atm from what I've seen. This isn't really the thread for this though.
 
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Okay cool but let's talk more about stances. From what I gathered, people use more than half of them but there are a handful that are completely untouched. A lazy way to do this would be remove the bad stances, cut the stamina costs of the good stances and put them on timers. Also should power generation/use be confined to 2/3 or spread out among the stances and if spread out, how?

Editing: Even with this, I expect rogues will far outstrip Monks on DPS simply because rogues are 'always-on'. And, further, rogues and beastlords are up for looks AFTER this is settled.
 
Slaariel said:
Okay cool but let's talk more about stances. From what I gathered, people use more than half of them but there are a handful that are completely untouched. A lazy way to do this would be remove the bad stances, cut the stamina costs of the good stances and put them on timers. Also should power generation/use be confined to 2/3 or spread out among the stances and if spread out, how?

Editing: Even with this, I expect rogues will far outstrip Monks on DPS simply because rogues are 'always-on'. And, further, rogues and beastlords are up for looks AFTER this is settled.
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I only use 3 stances.

s2, s14, s15 (when tank)
 
Dinadass said:
Did a few 10 minute parses with full buffs. Auto attack and spamming flying kick (no combos since the accuracy bonus from them could skew things and won't be present in the new system afaik) from both the front and back of a mob-

650 front
735 back

Had about a 8% increase in melee and kick accuracy.
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I think that this is very important to consider these DPS differences when making the upcoming 'attack from the front' changes.
 
Ideally I would like to see monks be sustained DPS and also be somewhat hardened as a class. I like offtanking or picking up the oh-shit mobs but also not getting my shit pushed in while pulling.

I dont care about burst DPS. I also really dont want to have 15 action bars and do some crazy as fuck combo to get a dps boost.

I just want to hit mobs and have them not hit me like im a level 10 wizard.

I am really, really envious of the warrior stamina system tho. just saying.
 
booster said:
Ideally I would like to see monks be sustained DPS and also be somewhat hardened as a class. I like offtanking or picking up the oh-shit mobs but also not getting my shit pushed in while pulling.

I dont care about burst DPS. I also really dont want to have 15 action bars and do some crazy as fuck combo to get a dps boost.

I just want to hit mobs and have them not hit me like im a level 10 wizard.

I am really, really envious of the warrior stamina system tho. just saying.
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pretty much this post except i would like monks to have some kind of DPS stance better than /s 2, maybe make it bare fist only or something idk. i just think its odd that they have no real DPS stance. as far as using stances is i use /s 2, /s 6, /s 9, /s 14, and s/ 15.
 
Yeah there are no combos but monks will be more survival-oriented DPS under this system! With the option to pay for cool punches (interrupts, aggro, kb/root) or cool kicks (damage, lifetap, bigger damage). The kicking choice is where your "DPS stance" will be and the punching stance is where you can use your utility in other ways. Really the chief issues are: how to balance H2H so it is good dps but not the always-on default and how to incorporate stances with the stamina system (which works pretty well!!). I just want the barest bit of interactivity within a Monk's combat decisions without creating a nightmare in the decrepit EQ UI.

Editing to add: The Defensive stance might also be able to hold the Special FD and / or the Special Mend.
 
Slaariel said:
Yeah there are no combos but monks will be more survival-oriented DPS under this system! With the option to pay for cool punches (interrupts, aggro, kb/root) or cool kicks (damage, lifetap, bigger damage). The kicking choice is where your "DPS stance" will be and the punching stance is where you can use your utility in other ways. Really the chief issues are: how to balance H2H so it is good dps but not the always-on default and how to incorporate stances with the stamina system (which works pretty well!!). I just want the barest bit of interactivity within a Monk's combat decisions without creating a nightmare in the decrepit EQ UI.

Editing to add: The Defensive stance might also be able to hold the Special FD and / or the Special Mend.
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i like these things. h2h is definitely a slippery slope and i cant think of any elegant solutions off the top of my head. I think the bare fist dmg scaling off of h2h mod is a bad thing though
 
Tevinter said:
pretty much this post except i would like monks to have some kind of DPS stance better than /s 2, maybe make it bare fist only or something idk. i just think its odd that they have no real DPS stance. as far as using stances is i use /s 2, /s 6, /s 9, /s 14, and s/ 15.
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I'm glad i'm not the only one that uses /s 9 on occasion :)
 
Slaariel said:
Yeah there are no combos but monks will be more survival-oriented DPS under this system! With the option to pay for cool punches (interrupts, aggro, kb/root) or cool kicks (damage, lifetap, bigger damage). The kicking choice is where your "DPS stance" will be and the punching stance is where you can use your utility in other ways. Really the chief issues are: how to balance H2H so it is good dps but not the always-on default and how to incorporate stances with the stamina system (which works pretty well!!). I just want the barest bit of interactivity within a Monk's combat decisions without creating a nightmare in the decrepit EQ UI.

Editing to add: The Defensive stance might also be able to hold the Special FD and / or the Special Mend.
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What if H2H is pure dps mode, weapons add in the survivability stats, or used when tanking/duoing
 
Primarily use /s 2 and then /s 15, commonly use /s 14, /s 6, on occasion use /s 9 and /s 8, and once in a blue moon use /s 13
 
Slaariel said:
Monks sit at 20% out of combat but! I am re-working the stance costs to accommodate this I mean that can figure into the re-working.

Also fixing a class through itemization is not acceptable to me. I don't want Monks to be Lesser Beings until they get one of a set of tier-locked glove upgrades that is far too much importance in one slot (worse than even Rogue daggers, I think, and a lot more annoying to deal with). I'm okay with gloves having procs and I am okay with gloves being desirable for their procs, but as an avenue to class balance, this is not a solution.
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What about our class tome Elemental Fists having increased proc rate or damage while barefisting? Would be pretty easy to scale that to an appropriate level so fists are a noticeable dps increase over same-tier weapons. Although the fire and cold procs from the tome get resisted by a lot of higher end content so maybe not. Plus this still is kind of "fixing through itemization" so meh.

Bare fists could give you bonus damage on all special attacks, or cost less/generate more discipline depending on how that system shakes out.

Innate haste bonus for using fists instead of weapons?

As far as the overcap H2H thing being reworked, would scaling fists from 13/18 to 18/18 based on the amount of HP on gloves work? Thats something that generally increases at a steady rate throughout the tiers. My favorite solution would be glove augs available from monk guild masters that unlock via killing different 6man/raid tiers or something.
 
Of those ideas, I like extra discipline with bare fists the most... especially since powered flying kicks hit really hard! The more of them you can do, the better. I think the MAIN mistake with scaling H2H the way i did it is that 13/18 -> 18/18 is huge mountain-sized steps of damage where it is probably safer to increase overall ratio instead of base damage somehow (sliding delay along with damage for a smoother curve). Basing it off +H2H skill was a bad idea anyway but it is difficult to find another way to scale it since levels stop at 65. Basing it off one item slot (like glove hp) is at best just as bad and at worst even worse.

The problem, always, with tier-locked class-defining single-slot stuff, even the augs you mention, is that it only takes 1 instance of tagging along on something way over your tier to completely obviate 90% of the content in the game. It's one thing to sneak into a pofrost raid at fresh 65 and get some nice pants and another thing to tag along for a high-tier 'aug-unlock' raid (in this case) and never have to worry about another dps upgrade for the rest of the life of your character because you scooped up a single item. That's what I would like to avoid.
 
Slaariel said:
Also, I am wavering on the Fists of Fury idea as a whole. Seems to not mesh with the power moves as designed and I really like the discipline system as it sits. I may just make it an extreme stance! Can weigh in on this as well.
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this would be amazing if it was a exhaustive burn stance
 
A random thought for how to scale H2H, there is already a system that gives bonus exp (100k-400k) for killing a new raid boss that you have not been at before. Maybe a monk could also get a "point" (scaling from 1-4 as well). and then the H2H damage could scale up from these points? This would avoid the only 1 kill to get near max DPS, while also rewarding killing new raid targets and not just farming the same ones over and over again for a single all important drop.

I should note, I dont play a monk, but I did tier up with one on my ranger, starting from killing T1 drags in WW and now we are killing T10 mobs. And i have to say, the monk was way out DPSing my ranger for a long time, but didnt seem to scale up
 
What if h2h mod increased the bonus discipline gained from using bare fist? It improves bare fist scaling without making it a 1 item scoop. Could also make it scale the effects of the different monk abilities. This makes it so that fresh 65 monkymonk who scored a sick pair of pofrost gloves wont have end all be all DPS from just gloves. Also, should probably change charm of the brute to 6.9k cost and add a 70k version, just like the backstab and archery charms
 
Slaariel said:
The problem, always, with tier-locked class-defining single-slot stuff, even the augs you mention, is that it only takes 1 instance of tagging along on something way over your tier to completely obviate 90% of the content in the game. It's one thing to sneak into a pofrost raid at fresh 65 and get some nice pants and another thing to tag along for a high-tier 'aug-unlock' raid (in this case) and never have to worry about another dps upgrade for the rest of the life of your character because you scooped up a single item. That's what I would like to avoid.
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This is hard to avoid, the best thing I can think of for it to scale with overall progression is to link it to HP. You end up with a weird dynamic where monks are saying "oh that item has high hp! i should get it! it will up my dps". I think if you make this only a smaller part of the power gain though, it would just naturally scale through progression without creating much weirdness.
 
I think the problem with h2h is 2 fold (and there also has to be some consideration for BLs when making h2h changes...)

1. We are trying to take 1 system that is common to all levels/tiers of monks/bls and figure out how to make it stronger as a character progresses, but we are trying to do this without the balancing factor being itemization. I don't think this is possible in any elegant nor SoDly consistent way, and I believe that the power curve for h2h should be done via itemization. This is the way other classes have innate skills increase in power from 65 to 65++...

2. The itemization of +h2h mods and gloves is currently poor. There needs to be a smoother progression of availability for both gloves and mods throughout the leveling process and the raid/group tiers. There have been a ton of posts about itemization, and I know for a fact that several of the high tier monks are willing to give itemization suggestions.


If we can itemize h2h gear better, this should be viable up until x raid tier (even with the current system.) At that point, tomes could come into play to boost h2h the rest of the way, and/or the mod can be changed to accept more than +25 (maybe scale to +30 or something.) Using tomes to scale the rest of the way might be a bad idea because there is no way to further increase the power curve if new tiers are added to the game.

This approach puts the burden of making innate skills better, at level 65 and on, through appropriate itemization which is consistent with how innate skills function in SoD.
 
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