being able to use only 80% of your yellow bar is just the way it was implemented. it could be equivalently designed such that you start with zero stam (but maybe somehow still able to jump) and build up from there. so just to be clear, it sounds like you're either asking for a bigger total yellow bar, or for a cosmetic change.
We All Love Monks, Here
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
being able to use only 80% of your yellow bar is just the way it was implemented. it could be equivalently designed such that you start with zero stam (but maybe somehow still able to jump) and build up from there. so just to be clear, it sounds like you're either asking for a bigger total yellow bar, or for a cosmetic change.
So my last post was done unaware that an update (possibly final...) had happened. Since then I've only played the monk twice, but a few observations... DPS is still a little low from what it used to be, but it's not awful at all, and as someone posted a few posts ago, I'm unaware of exactly how the 30 sec thing works, or how the force of body new thing shows up. Seems there could still be some work, but from the perspective of a monk that cares less about dps than the rest and more about the other stuff (and how dps coincides with it):
When I tank, I actually do seem to tank ok again. (though I will have to look at this way more) However, there isn't just a significant drop in dps. It completely goes to shit. The one long fight I tanked, I parsed sub-200. I completely understand and agree that while tanking it should definitely be lower, but that's pretty god-awful. While auxing on another of the same mob, my dps was cut very significantly. That would also be ok situationally, but in /s 2 I take a ton of damage. So much so that it's definitely wrong to do. In /s 3, I no longer am a dps class. Basically unless it's a mob where the tank is going to get absolutely trucked and likely die, auxing seems like it will rarely be worth it over just staying in the back.
The dps I did in /s 2 while auxing seems like about where tanking dps should be (still pretty shitty). Normal "all-out" dps seems maybe just a bit higher than where auxing in general dps should be (still decently lower than where all-out dps should be), and either there needs to be a way to not be a total liability from the front, or you should somehow be able to still do worthwhile comparative dps from the front to justify the liability you are. And all-out dps still seems to need a little bump. It seemed like each situation might need to go up an order of monk-dps magnitude, whatever that might mean...
Having to switch stances comstantly to do what I want to do seems so clunky. Having to wait to even do any of this stuff until the sta bar hits 41 or whatever also feels clunky. Also the lifetap doesn't seem all that useful. Our ability to sustain ourselves, both in an auxing situation (obviously it's completely up to healers in a tanking situation) and especially in a soloing situation seems to have become non-existent. You pretty much have to have bandages and downtime while soloing now, and have to rely on more than just the occasional heal while auxing.
Again, this is so far since last update with a smallish sample size, and all of this is completely my opinion. I plan to watch it a lot more when I have time. Take it all for what you will or not at all... Oh, and I'm sorry to show up way late to the party...
And Taryth, you're completely right. If I was a dev and read this shit, I'd probably hate monks and the world that produced them. That being said, provoked or not, Slaar doesn't exactly come across as if we're not a bunch of idiots either. We could all stand to tone it down some.
When I tank, I actually do seem to tank ok again. (though I will have to look at this way more) However, there isn't just a significant drop in dps. It completely goes to shit. The one long fight I tanked, I parsed sub-200. I completely understand and agree that while tanking it should definitely be lower, but that's pretty god-awful. While auxing on another of the same mob, my dps was cut very significantly. That would also be ok situationally, but in /s 2 I take a ton of damage. So much so that it's definitely wrong to do. In /s 3, I no longer am a dps class. Basically unless it's a mob where the tank is going to get absolutely trucked and likely die, auxing seems like it will rarely be worth it over just staying in the back.
The dps I did in /s 2 while auxing seems like about where tanking dps should be (still pretty shitty). Normal "all-out" dps seems maybe just a bit higher than where auxing in general dps should be (still decently lower than where all-out dps should be), and either there needs to be a way to not be a total liability from the front, or you should somehow be able to still do worthwhile comparative dps from the front to justify the liability you are. And all-out dps still seems to need a little bump. It seemed like each situation might need to go up an order of monk-dps magnitude, whatever that might mean...
Having to switch stances comstantly to do what I want to do seems so clunky. Having to wait to even do any of this stuff until the sta bar hits 41 or whatever also feels clunky. Also the lifetap doesn't seem all that useful. Our ability to sustain ourselves, both in an auxing situation (obviously it's completely up to healers in a tanking situation) and especially in a soloing situation seems to have become non-existent. You pretty much have to have bandages and downtime while soloing now, and have to rely on more than just the occasional heal while auxing.
Again, this is so far since last update with a smallish sample size, and all of this is completely my opinion. I plan to watch it a lot more when I have time. Take it all for what you will or not at all... Oh, and I'm sorry to show up way late to the party...
And Taryth, you're completely right. If I was a dev and read this shit, I'd probably hate monks and the world that produced them. That being said, provoked or not, Slaar doesn't exactly come across as if we're not a bunch of idiots either. We could all stand to tone it down some.
Zawnza
Dalayan Adventurer
I either want the cosmetic change or we could actually be able to go below 20% bar like warriors(who have a very similar system) can, they for example start with 20%/40% endurance out of combat depending on if they have the EF tome or not just like monks do now but they can use their abilities so long as they have the usage amount instead of being required to have over 40%, that being said, a lot of their abilities do take more then 20% bar. Right now it just doesn't make sense.
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
should rly take off those terrible weapons and use your fists, then parseJust for some reference, I was boxing Gegen in CoD other day for some ringer raiding.
I mostly only used /s 2, but when I had agro I used /s 3. No predator and no cunning, but otherwise raid buffed. Using the weapons and gear he currently has equipped.
My exp and some numbers for you guys to chat over:
-In /s 2 he gets his ass handed to him if he gets agro. A bit harder than before because prior to the combo removal he could do some heavy self healing in /s 2. With the type of raid we did, this wasn't the end of the world. I wasn't the only one in the raid that noticed this though.
-In /s 3 he tanks decently well for ringer content. It seems fairly similar to what he was doing before the changes. No clue how he would do on tier
-Using /s 2 and flying kick is a fuck ton of agro. I'm not use to FDing/holt/etc. when Jauth tanks, and I've boxed several characters that put out substantially more DPS without taking agro. He was seriously generating a lot of agro. Again, I wasn't the only one that noticed. (I realize some of the named mobs cast DA... I'm not talking about those instances....)
-He was floating around 500 DPS on trash/named from behind, more like 400s from the front (but in /s 2 he gets eaten by ripostes from the front.) xaltec and madelin were more in the range of 900-1050 and 750-100 respectively. (They very much out gear and out tome Gegen, but everyone was boxing dudes so really precise numbers are going to be tough...)
I don't have any parses from before to draw any conclusions, but overall it seemed not a bad. I think Gegen would have ended up with substantially less DPS due to needing to FD more often if a ringer SK wasn't the tank. Honestly, I'm not sure if he would have been able to pull agro using the attack combo considering how much agro jauth was putting out.
I'd like more time to play with the endurance portion of the changes and the other /s, but it feels like I would have lost quite a bit of DPS trying to save up stamina by not using flying kick, so that I could burn later. It is nice to not be able to go to zero stamina because on the rare times you need to jump, you still can. (I don't think any single mob lived much longer than 30 seconds to check out the DPS boost.)
Over all it wasn't a bad experience and felt very similar to playing the monk prior to the combo system. Mash flying kick every pop. I'll try to play him some more to get a better handle on how the changes feel.
Zawnza
Dalayan Adventurer
Don't forget to grab shm stat buffs though, they really do help a decent bit for this
Pecannius
Dalayan Elder
So I've only parsed a little bit but this patch looks pretty good in leveling off dps. On the few mobs I've parsed:
3rd round monk changes (aggressive, spamming flying kick) with focus, shaman stats
Average: 593DPS
So I think in terms of bringing monk dps back to what they were before the big changes, they are pretty much where they should be know (at least from my parses).
Some thoughts about the state of monks in no particular order:
1) Maybe I'm missing something but is there a reason to restrict the specials attacks to defensive/offensive stance? It would make much more sense to me if we just let them do all special attacks (I believe there are 6) regardless of the stance.
2) Again, maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand the point of having the special attacks drain stamina. I'm almost always just spamming flying kick not looking at my stamina bar. What is a monk supposed to do while building up stamina? Is there some strategic aspect to this? Why not just have all of the "empowered" attacks be what they always do?
I know it's probably too late for another overhaul but it makes sense if my mind if all of the special attacks wouldn't drain sta and then monks were given a "super offensive" and a "super defensive" stance where they would be the same as regular offensive/defensive stance except that the special attacks were enhanced and those would drain sta. Obviously, numbers would have to be tweaked. Monk special attacks are pretty underwhelming if not empowered. My 2cp.
3) My testing was done on a monk without an eternal, but since old combos could crit and empowered kicks can not, this will hurt monks with eternal/supremes. Was this change intentional?
4) Thanks devs for working with us! You're all under-appreciated despite the often hostile feedback on these boards.
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
im sure they can still crit procs.
on second thought eternals and supremes suck and i agree they hurt anyone who gets them.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
They couldn't crit the last few times I parsed.
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Had stats, kept weapons equipped because I was ramp tanking (and I was to lazy to swap out.)
Is it still worth capping h2h by using lower tier gear still?
Haenir
Dalayan Master
If you're referencing the fight I think you are, that low dps number is a bit misleading. Of our melee dps on that fight you did about the same amount of damage (20% of total) while tanking as I did while trying to max my dps. And the other monk who was dps'ing did 1.5x your damage (30% of total). Granted you are much better geared/xp'd but even accounting for that, the relationship between melees seems to be okay.
Idk what you're talking about. I hate other melees. In all seriousness though I need to mess with my filters to see those kinds of comparisons again. I was still parsing about 600 dps higher though on an identical mob earlier in dps mode, so I still feel like there's something pretty off there. Maybe our parses look different somehow. I just can't imagine your dps being as low as mine was showing since I parsed relatively fine the first go.
Correct special damage procs/FK etc have not crit since the changes.
darksabbath
Dalayan Master
From Slaar's first post in the thread:
- Flat Hand-to-hand bonus removed and looking for a way to integrate reasonably with gear progression.
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
str and dex scales the damage of h2h but the mod prob just increases accuracy and atk or something. or nothing
Monk ae aggro is beyond broken. I was wearing my ice ele illusion and i pulled like 6 mobs in EF onto crynel who picked them up np/whirld etc did warrior type stuff only to instantly rip everything off of him when i had the ice ele ae proc go off. This happened every proc basically and i had a lot of trouble healing through it lol. I also had it happen throughout our EF clear on mobs that he was single target tanking while i was tanking/killing a different mob from him. Similar aggro happens when I would use the ae kick in aggressive (round kick). There's more I want to say but have to go atm will post in a bit.
During ulaz i pulled aggro while feared for like 2 ticks she just turned and hit me and killed me lol.
Another instance was when tanking raid trash as the offtank and jraul as the main tank terroring the mezzed mobs. After multiple terrors casted on a mezzed mob we broke it only for it to rush directly to me when i hadnt even targeted the mob throughout the fight.
Hopefully this gets fixed because not everyone is geared to tank as much.
As far as dps i havnt gotten to really parse much in good conditions, specifically against others around my tier. But the fact i can tank and not take crazy amounts of damage from wreckless combo is a good start.
When I asked about how much str/dex affects our fist ratio i was told that 1000 combined dex/str made our fists a 1/1 ratio. So my guess was that 200 of the stats = + 1 damage since our fists start at 13/18 that made sense to me. However i guess its not that simple and it makes 1/1 ratio by lowering delay and adding damage by an undetermined amount. From the info, assuming it's right, considering it was just word of mouth rather than posted anywhere I was just curious if there are break points involved? It doesn't make much sense to have a decimal for dmg/delay ratio but again that is just an assumption.
If there are break points involved i am curious what type of numbers we are looking at because that would be important in determining if it's even worth gearing for 30 extra dex/str or augging for it etc when it would be useless if not reaching the next number required. I realize this sort of thing would be parsable but who really wants to try to parse that much with such limited parsing mobs. Would be kind of neat to just have a general guideline akin to how we know how much stats are required for a tome to work.
Anyway, the rambles are real. Hope the aggro gets fixed and stuff.
During ulaz i pulled aggro while feared for like 2 ticks she just turned and hit me and killed me lol.
Another instance was when tanking raid trash as the offtank and jraul as the main tank terroring the mezzed mobs. After multiple terrors casted on a mezzed mob we broke it only for it to rush directly to me when i hadnt even targeted the mob throughout the fight.
Hopefully this gets fixed because not everyone is geared to tank as much.
As far as dps i havnt gotten to really parse much in good conditions, specifically against others around my tier. But the fact i can tank and not take crazy amounts of damage from wreckless combo is a good start.
When I asked about how much str/dex affects our fist ratio i was told that 1000 combined dex/str made our fists a 1/1 ratio. So my guess was that 200 of the stats = + 1 damage since our fists start at 13/18 that made sense to me. However i guess its not that simple and it makes 1/1 ratio by lowering delay and adding damage by an undetermined amount. From the info, assuming it's right, considering it was just word of mouth rather than posted anywhere I was just curious if there are break points involved? It doesn't make much sense to have a decimal for dmg/delay ratio but again that is just an assumption.
If there are break points involved i am curious what type of numbers we are looking at because that would be important in determining if it's even worth gearing for 30 extra dex/str or augging for it etc when it would be useless if not reaching the next number required. I realize this sort of thing would be parsable but who really wants to try to parse that much with such limited parsing mobs. Would be kind of neat to just have a general guideline akin to how we know how much stats are required for a tome to work.
Anyway, the rambles are real. Hope the aggro gets fixed and stuff.
Last edited: