Warrior riposte damage.

[Budizzle]

Hi. I've been thinking about this a bit lately.

The problem:
Of the three tank classes (warrior, paladin, and shadowknight) warriors take, far and away, the most riposte damage, provided generously by duel wield coupled with low delay weapons for optimal aggro and the inability to hold said aggro without attacking. In point of fact, a knight's ability to tank without melee while wearing a shield negates warrior mitigation stances pretty substantially; I haven't parsed it yet, however. To fuck warriors even harder, apparently, both paladins and shadowknights are able to heal in combat (heals and lifetaps respectively), further reducing the allure of warrior stances and innate mitigation. Considering we can /shield and aux a knight and eat far less riposte damage in the process, warriors aren't even the prime tank for quite a few, if not most, bosses imo... even if it's an offtanking scenario. All of which is in direct conflict with the warrior's role, so sayeth the wiki:

The Warrior is one of three Tank classes in Shards of Dalaya, alongside the Paladin and Shadowknight. Of the three, the Warrior does the least damage, and has the hardest time holding Aggro, but makes up for it in spades, by taking the by far the least amount of damage due.

Seems pretty skewfucked right now.

The solution:
I suggest warriors receive an innate mitigation boost to ALL riposte damage received, added before all modifiers -- something to the tune of 20-30%. The product is a boost in the value of warriors as main tanks in every scenario. Also, it would enable us to produce more aggro through rage at the cost of manageably harder heals.

 

[Manguadi]

I agree that warriors have problems that need fixing, but I haven't been worrying about it because of ikisith.

The plan with ikisith is to rebalance classes by improving more the weaker classes, and improving but less-so the more powerful classes. You can expect to see warrior tomes much stronger than knight tomes. Although this surely won't satisfy you as the problem exists now, it would be silly to change anything when the changes are already set to be implemented.

Also, I believe your assumptions are largely false. While warriors do take the most riposte damage, they take the lowest dps of all the tanks by a substantial % from my parsing. Additionally, shielding lessens the gap, but warriors still have a healthy lead in dps taken.

Warriors are still, by far, the best tanks as far as taking the least amount of damage in a predictable way. They are weak in groups due to zone design and age. It has always been the standard to make tanking several mobs better than tanking one mob in SoD. Warriors also have essentially no versatility and their "tricks" are limited to AAs that have a rather long reuse compared to say, AE blind.

If you want to suggest changes, I don't think tanking is where to begin. Taking less damage will make warriors no less boxed, no more necessary, and no more fun. Think of things that make your role more active, your personal impact by being an attentive warrior greater, and things that will generally make it more fun to be a warrior.

 

[Noktar]

In my opinion the current biggest problem with warriors is agro and not damage taken although I do agree that with gear and better 1 handers and shields the knights are ever closer to warriors in taking less damage.

Currently I have an extreemly hard time keeping agro over the ever so progressing bunch of raiders that go with me. Currently I am almost max geared for my tier except for flameskar since we never saw an eleborate chest as of yet. Nothing will add to my agro basicly except for finishing my tomes and get emberflow tomes.

As it is now noone from my guild has emberflow tomes. Currently almost everybody gets agro over me easy and really need to watch their agro. This is fine and good. There is a problem though when paladins start stealing agro with just meleeing and not casting, using either there 1hander or 2 handers. This makes me wonder if the other classes are also not always as easy to blame for grabbing agro.

A long time ago this was posted in balacing discussion by wiz:

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=13807

Stating that warriors should proc foelock on clickies and generate more agro. Since warriors dont foelock on clickies i doubt we generate more agro as before that.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

I notice Ratkon uses weapons with 24 and 23 delay... This might be one of your problems keeping aggro. I also have problems with aggro if I use Frostwrath (24 delay) and Valor (22 delay). However, if I switch either out for Jy'xja's darting blade (6 delay), I have no trouble at all keeping aggro even though it has a worse ratio than either of the other 2.

The way aggro CURRENTLY works, you get more aggro for more hits. You might try using a faster weapon if you have one to keep better aggro. Of course, you'll eat more riposte's in the process. Also, stay tuned.

 

[Otcho]

Stating that warriors should proc foelock on clickies and generate more agro. Since warriors dont foelock on clickies i doubt we generate more agro as before that.

You very much trigger foelock with any clicky that does damage

 

[Noktar]

You very much trigger foelock with any clicky that does damage

Thats interesting i didnt know that. What if it gets resisted wich prolly will be 98% of the time?

I notice Ratkon uses weapons with 24 and 23 delay... This might be one of your problems keeping aggro. I also have problems with aggro if I use Frostwrath (24 delay) and Valor (22 delay). However, if I switch either out for Jy'xja's darting blade (6 delay), I have no trouble at all keeping aggro even though it has a worse ratio than either of the other 2.

The way aggro CURRENTLY works, you get more aggro for more hits. You might try using a faster weapon if you have one to keep better aggro. Of course, you'll eat more riposte's in the process. Also, stay tuned.

I guess i could switch back to old gear and use patriarch again though I hate that you cant upgrade that.

 

[Otcho]

Thats interesting i didnt know that. What if it gets resisted wich prolly will be 98% of the time?

.

You either cast it again or its too late and the mob is infront of you wailing on your junk for casting. As for resists, I haven't seen this as a problem, maybe your clicky sucks.

 

[Cyzaine]

Resists do not activate Foe Lock. I'm not sure if this is a problem really, as you don't get Foe Lock on misses either (I believe).

The way aggro CURRENTLY works, you get more aggro for more hits. You might try using a faster weapon if you have one to keep better aggro. Of course, you'll eat more riposte's in the process. Also, stay tuned.

!

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Resists do not activate Foe Lock. I'm not sure if this is a problem really, as you don't get Foe Lock on misses either (I believe).

Misses DO activate foelock, while resisted spells do not. I believe clickies that do not do damage do not activate foelock, resisted or not.

 

[Noktar]

Resists do not activate Foe Lock. I'm not sure if this is a problem really, as you don't get Foe Lock on misses either (I believe).


!

Well if you miss you prolly do another melee hit in the same second anyway. If you cast something that gets resisted unless its instant cast no recast you will have a mob lose. currently i'm using hex doll and just super spam it to tag in the hope i get one unresisted.
But even then sometimes mobs just kill a radom guy for no appearant reason. Maybe ill switch back to some bow or something.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Well if you miss you prolly do another melee hit in the same second anyway.

Unless you're using a bow. My comment was mostly in reference to ranged misses do activate foelock.

 

[Kharras]

Also, I believe your assumptions are largely false. While warriors do take the most riposte damage, they take the lowest dps of all the tanks by a substantial % from my parsing. Additionally, shielding lessens the gap, but warriors still have a healthy lead in dps taken.

No offense, but I think your parsing may be flawed somehow. I have noticed since I started raiding that an equally (or closely) equipped Pally in parry stance will mitigate AND produce more hate than Warriors. I can back the mitigation statement with..

Some information gathered from posts by Wiz. Keep in mind that not all information gathered may be up to date.

Parry + Riposte are lost while casting. This was done to balance out the fact that a hybrid with a shield can out-mitigate a warrior, instead of just nerfing shields.
Dodge, shield block are retained while casting.

In a nutshell this states that Knights (prob equally equipped) out-mitigate Warriors unless they are chain casting hehe. The Parry/Riposte penalty is negligible since taunt/stances do work concerning aggro, with an occasional quick casting hate spell thrown in to seal the deal. Honestly...the way things are set up...I think a Paladin MT with a warrior /shielding is the hot ticket. Granted I don't like this, but I don't like taxes either and still have to pay them 8).

Personally, I try to avoid using very low delay weapons as MUCH as possible, especially on hard hitting raid mobs as they will eat you ALIVE with riposte, even further justifying the benefits of Knights over Warriors tanking.

Also, I don't think any class needs to be "nerfed" Im fine with all the bells & whistles you get with Pala....uhh....I mean Knights, but I do think the Warrior's role, and the abilities that are needed to fill that role should be reviewed more.

 

[Cyzaine]

The way aggro CURRENTLY works, you get more aggro for more hits. You might try using a faster weapon if you have one to keep better aggro. Of course, you'll eat more riposte's in the process. Also, stay tuned.

...

 

[diolas]

Just how many times does this have to be brought up?

Some information gathered from posts by Wiz. Keep in mind that not all information gathered may be up to date.

Parry + Riposte are lost while casting. This was done to balance out the fact that a hybrid with a shield can out-mitigate a warrior, instead of just nerfing shields.
Dodge, shield block are retained while casting.

In a nutshell this states that Knights (prob equally equipped) out-mitigate Warriors unless they are chain casting hehe. The Parry/Riposte penalty is negligible since taunt/stances do work concerning aggro, with an occasional quick casting hate spell thrown in to seal the deal. Honestly...the way things are set up...I think a Paladin MT with a warrior /shielding is the hot ticket. Granted I don't like this, but I don't like taxes either and still have to pay them 8).

2. Parry and riposte are lost while casting and when a mob is behind you. Obviously you should not be tanking with your back but if you are a knight you will most likely be casting so mods to these skill will be less beneficial.

Was this code reinserted and I just missed it somehow? I'd brought up the issue once before in this thread. A response from Wiz cleared up the issue stating that it had been removed. Can a Dev confirm or deny this please?

A quick test shows that parry and riposte are still active while casting.

And, from a reeeeaaallly long time ago.

No, this code was removed.

Please bury this misconception once and for all. Maybe put it in the tome of knowledge, as dumb as it sounds, stating specifically that knights do 'not' lose riposte and parry while casting.

 

[Waldoff]

Misconceptions ahoy!

A) Non damage clickies trigger foelock. Resisted clickies do not. This is why the hammer in rust is so nice - no damage and foelockable. If you want an assured foelock at range you can use a bow or throwing item.

B) Regardless what you have perceived offhand warriors do have a substantial lead in damage taken in when compared to the other knights EVEN when being shielded with an 80 ac shield. This has been correlated by both player and staff parsing. Remember that warriors do take more reposte damage because of swing rate but also get reposted much less than the other classes ceteris paribus.

Now - That being said the discrepancy between the three classes tanking ability does not in my opinion outweigh the huge difference in else wise utility. This is where the problem lies - and a large part of it is aggro. We have been looking at this for a long time and ironically have a fix on the test server for the aggro part of it. The rest will wait till Ikisith.

 

[Budizzle]

I agree that warriors have problems that need fixing, but I haven't been worrying about it because of ikisith.

The plan with ikisith is to rebalance classes by improving more the weaker classes, and improving but less-so the more powerful classes. You can expect to see warrior tomes much stronger than knight tomes. Although this surely won't satisfy you as the problem exists now, it would be silly to change anything when the changes are already set to be implemented.

Also, I believe your assumptions are largely false. While warriors do take the most riposte damage, they take the lowest dps of all the tanks by a substantial % from my parsing. Additionally, shielding lessens the gap, but warriors still have a healthy lead in dps taken.

Warriors are still, by far, the best tanks as far as taking the least amount of damage in a predictable way. They are weak in groups due to zone design and age. It has always been the standard to make tanking several mobs better than tanking one mob in SoD. Warriors also have essentially no versatility and their "tricks" are limited to AAs that have a rather long reuse compared to say, AE blind.

If you want to suggest changes, I don't think tanking is where to begin. Taking less damage will make warriors no less boxed, no more necessary, and no more fun. Think of things that make your role more active, your personal impact by being an attentive warrior greater, and things that will generally make it more fun to be a warrior.

1.) I knew Ikisith would be mentioned when I posted this thread. Don't get me wrong, I am very much anticipating the release of Ikisith, however, insinuating Ikisith will "fix it all" (which might be what it is aiming towards) is based on a very naive assumption: Ikisith will be flawless with no problems of its own. I hold the devs in pretty high esteem and invest as much faith in them as anyone else, but it's fallacy to assume Ikisith will function seamlessly on release. Ikisith should not be released before most pre-existing problems are addressed or you're inviting all the problems Ikisith might/can/will produce to stack on top of current issues, imo. Instead, Ikisith should improve on everything after it's been rebalanced. This is not exclusive to warrior shortchanging...

2.) No, it's not false. It's pretty common knowledge that having a knight (read: paladin) of the same tier tank with spells while having a warrior /shield and aux is the best way to manage a mob's melee dps. This is due to paladin stances, their ability to heal, and the fact that they can avoid 100% riposte damage by not attacking. Warriors are still the best openers on unslowed mobs with resilience, but after it fades/slow lands a knight can easily take aggro off us.

3.) I'm not trying to change my class role. I'm not trying to make it "any less boxed" or "any more fun." I would like warriors to fill their intended role.

In my opinion the current biggest problem with warriors is agro and not damage taken although I do agree that with gear and better 1 handers and shields the knights are ever closer to warriors in taking less damage.

Currently I have an extreemly hard time keeping agro over the ever so progressing bunch of raiders that go with me. Currently I am almost max geared for my tier except for flameskar since we never saw an eleborate chest as of yet. Nothing will add to my agro basicly except for finishing my tomes and get emberflow tomes.

As it is now noone from my guild has emberflow tomes. Currently almost everybody gets agro over me easy and really need to watch their agro. This is fine and good. There is a problem though when paladins start stealing agro with just meleeing and not casting, using either there 1hander or 2 handers. This makes me wonder if the other classes are also not always as easy to blame for grabbing agro.

A long time ago this was posted in balacing discussion by wiz:

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=13807

Stating that warriors should proc foelock on clickies and generate more agro. Since warriors dont foelock on clickies i doubt we generate more agro as before that.

1.) Our biggest problem is not aggro. In fact, I'd say our aggro generation is pretty balanced.

2.) Foelock is triggered by clickes that do damage. Which is a pile of bullshit since foelock can be triggered on a miss from a bow. My current clicky gets resisted about 50% of each cast, with a .5 cast time. Get it.

Edit:

Misconceptions ahoy!
A) Non damage clickies trigger foelock. Resisted clickies do not. This is why the hammer in rust is so nice - no damage and foelockable. If you want an assured foelock at range you can use a bow or throwing item.

Malo doll does not trigger foelock, unless this has been changed in the last couple months...

 

[Mythryn]

2.) No, it's not false. It's pretty common knowledge that having a knight (read: paladin) of the same tier tank with spells while having a warrior /shield and aux is the best way to manage a mob's melee dps.

In every parse I've seen in my history on SoD (Minus one occurance where I had broken Spell Ward SK thaz armor, Linken /shielding me, and chain runes) Warriors have taken less DPS when fighting the same mobs, ripostes or not.

Warriors fulfill their role just fine. They take less damage, and have more HP to soak up said damage. Sure, you can close the gap by having a warrior /shield and aux for a knight, but you can also have a warrior /shield and aux for gasp another warrior, making the gap widen even further.

 

[Kharras]

In every parse I've seen in my history on SoD (Minus one occurance where I had broken Spell Ward SK thaz armor, Linken /shielding me, and chain runes) Warriors have taken less DPS when fighting the same mobs, ripostes or not.

Some information gathered from posts by Wiz. Keep in mind that not all information gathered may be up to date.
Parry + Riposte are lost while casting. This was done to balance out the fact that a hybrid with a shield can out-mitigate a warrior, instead of just nerfing shields.

No offense, but I will believe what Wiz said.

 

[Mythryn]

No offense, but I will believe what Wiz said.

No offense, but that is very, very old information, and the no riposte/parry change was done well before 95% of the current player base even played on the server, before Warriors had their current styles, before specs, and before spec bonuses. So no offense, but I'm going to believe what my parses say, and what Woldaff says.

 

[stope21]

Warriors out mitigate all classes, not even a comparison.

Warriors have 400 - 600 more hp than an equally geared knight.

Warriors can throw on a shield during a fight, and there is absolutely no touching them in terms of tanking. Learn when you can use shield, and you will excel.

In regard to riposte: You have the ability to shut off auto attack when you get low life. Get a darting blade like gunder said, and learn to toggle your attacks on and off. This will provide more than ample agro, and when you get low you don't need to worry about eating an untimely riposte.

Tanking is all about providing your healers with the most hp to work with and the lowest flattest dps curve. You better believe that toggling off and on auto attack will make a difference, not to mention the key timing of your stances, equipping a shield, hotkeys etc.

Save hotkeys:
-Keep a quick finger hovering over your resilience hotkey. Half damage, this is hard to use properly, but due to the quick re-use, u can re-use it usually twice in a fight at the hardest points. Takes good anticipation, IE: When 2 group members/groups are yelling for heals and you're already at 60%.. go ahead and pop it. If you don't use vent and have a delay, I'm sorry your communication pathways are not quick enough.
-Keep another quick finger hovering over your area taunt hotkey. This is guaranteed to win agro off anyone, even a pesky wizard who is not jolting enough. Soon as the mob turns, smash it.. there you go you have taken agro back and the wizard checks himself.


Warriors are in no way inferior in tanking, and their class as a whole is not really underpowered. Where they are inferior is in user interaction and there are some quirks in agro management. But honestly, from what I have seen this lies in the weapon choice of the warrior.

Even as a pally, I sometimes struggle to pull agro off a well played warrior. Both sald and woldaff can both steal agro off me, and I never remember having agro problems with kazimir as our warrior when I was in fusion, even as we progressed through the teirs.

I'm not so sure it is an agro management issue even, but rather that progression for agro weapons isn't exactly there. The darting blade is probably the best agro weapon you can get as a warrior, but it does not have the best tanking stats, nor is it terribly high teir. That coupled with a flamescar should provide pretty amazingly crazy agro, and tbh it doesn't even have that terrible of stats.

The class is powerful, but not very interactive. I think you should lobby for more user interaction as a warrior. Not just, auto attack and afk. I personally would like to see resilience improved, or changed to be shorter but more intense(although im not sure of the current duration of it. This is because in theory, if you wait till you are low hp to hit it, you get a reduced benefit of the effect. I dont think this is a huge issue, i just think its a downside to the ability that could be improved to give warriors more versatility, while not drastically changing their class or strength.

You should also note that copy and posting wiki articles doesn't have much credibility, and that the concepts portrayed there are not necessarily endorsed by SoD developers. Anyways, after looking at that quote, warriors are what it says, and more. They also have the ability to do some more than okay mellee dps (although not frequently applicable due to their ability to tank so well). If you have never tried it before, you need to do your crazy haste stance, and see what kind of numbers you are putting out . Just watch out, while you are doing this stance you are going to be generating some absolutely massive amounts of agro (hint hint -- maybe there is a use for this too! But I'm going to stop playing your class from the forums for now).