SoD 2.0 - What's going to happen II

[Wiz]

I just wanted to make a quick commentary thread on the changes that are and aren't in, and dispel any uncertainity about the future. I will list each of the things mentioned in the previous topic and write a commentary.

Level factor
Level will disappear majorly as a factor on resists, accuracy, mitigation and so on - skills/stats will decide this instead. A sufficent number of level 20s will be able to down a level 35 mob, and it will be easier to have a wider range of player levels in a group.

This is pretty much implemented as intended, after a few tweaks, and appears to be working fine. Level isn't a factor anymore, it's all about the mob/player's skills/stats. The gameplay hasn't changed much, but it's very noticeable if you want to take on something a good deal outside your normal level range.

Engage limit
The engage limit on NPCs will be 18 players or 2 of any class. NPCs designed for more than this will have their raw stats reduced to compensate.

Dynamic engage limit
Possibly not implemented right away will be a dynamic engage limit that replaces the 2 of any class hardcap with a softcap that makes any player of a particular class beyond 2 less effective against a mob (so you can have 3 rogues against a mob, but the third rogue might only do 75% of his usual damage)

The class limit is 3 for now. I still intend to implement the dynamic engage limit.

Items
Item stats, particularily HP/Mana, will go down across the board. NPCs will be adjusted accordingly, the main reason for this change is to close the gap between players and other players, and make augments more important. (Augments will be mostly unchanged).

This will not happen. I still think it's a nice idea, as item gaps are too big, but it's not enough of a problem to rebalance everything as would be the result. That time, in all honestly, is better spent making content. What we've done so far has changed a lot, but it really hasn't required all that much work. This idea really only would work in conjunction with a wipe, which is already ruled out.

Resists
Resists, particularily from bard songs and other spells, will go down across the board. Resist calcs will be adjusted accordingly. We feel that hitting 500 in a resist is way too easy.

Amount of +resists from spells will be reduced over the board. More emphasis will be placed on resist gear.

Respawns
For now, multi-day respawns will be cut in half. A different system will possibly be used if competition turns out to still be too harsh. Raid mobs will have their amount of item drops reduced.

This is in effect.

Auxillary tanking
Auxillary tanking will be added. Auxillary tanking is a system that reduces the damage a NPC or player deals to whoever it is attacking based on the amount and tanking quality of players and pets you have in front of it that are attacking it (with autoattack) - so if you have a NPC attacking a lonely warrior, it might do 20% extra damage, if you add a second warrior in front of it it might do normal damage, add a monk in front of it and it's now doing 10% less damage, add a water pet and it's now doing a total of 15% less damage, and so on. Every class, pet and NPC can contribute to auxillary tanking, but there is a hardcap on how low the NPC can go in damage, and since a wizard doesn't have the best tanking stats around, they're probably best off standing back instead of taking ripostes.

This is in effect and fully working.

Travel
Portals will be moved into cities, but will no longer be instant travel. Going into a portal will take you to the Plane of Portals, where you have to run to your select destination. Spellcasting, gaining EXP, talking while not in /tell, trading and a lot of other things will be impossible in the Plane of Portals to prevent players from lingering there. It will be mostly safe, but not always...

This is in effect and fully working.

Complete heal
Complete heal the spell will no longer exist as you know it. It will be changed into a very mana efficent spell with a shorter casting time and a several minute recast - a once a fight spell instead of the current chains. Healing will be mainly done through the direct set amount heals.

This is in effect and fully working.

 

[Wiz]

In summary, the only things still awaiting implementation are the tweaks to resists and dynamic engage limits. Our focus is now switching to a serious injection of content.

 

[Elysium]

I remember you saying Elves are going back home to Athica/Kelethin. Is this going to be implemented (or is it already)?

 

[Wiz]

I remember you saying Elves are going back home to Athica/Kelethin. Is this going to be implemented (or is it already)?

Yes, it will be implemented as soon as possible.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

With the rait target changes and without the gear changes, doesn't this mean that the problem of the upper-tier toons being able to single-group lower-tier raid mobs becomes even worse, so they'll be able to ~3-box them? Are there any changes planned to address this, or isn't it seen as enough of a problem to worry about?

 

[Wiz]

With the rait target changes and without the gear changes, doesn't this mean that the problem of the upper-tier toons being able to single-group lower-tier raid mobs becomes even worse, so they'll be able to ~3-box them? Are there any changes planned to address this, or isn't it seen as enough of a problem to worry about?

This would have happened anyway honestly, lower tier raid targets would have stayed the same comparably in power to the upper tier players after the gear nerf. It was mostly aimed at EXP/pre-raid mobs.

With that said, yes, I'd like to try and address that very real problem. Auxillary tanking is a start.

You do have to understand that being able to 1-group previously 3-groupable mobs (just like being able to 2-group previously 6-groupable mobs on 1.0) is unavoidable though, we can just limit the extent. Also keep in mind that the faster respawns should make up for mobs being 1-grouped more often.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

You do have to understand that being able to 1-group previously 3-groupable mobs (just like being able to 2-group previously 6-groupable mobs on 1.0) is unavoidable though, we can just limit the extent.

Yes, I absolutely know this is unavoidable. Just the magnitude of change is what concerned me (as you mentioned in one of the original 2.0 posts, about higher tier players being 2x instead of 5x as good iirc).

I'm glad to hear it's still on the radar.

Thanks again Wiz!

 

[Duma]

What about plans to implement the system to continually spend exp even after you get all your major AA's? Or possibly older ideas like trained /styles?

 

[Wiz]

What about plans to implement the system to continually spend exp even after you get all your major AA's? Or possibly older ideas like trained /styles?

Yeah, this is coming too, I just kinda see it as a separate content thing.

The first special advancement book will probably be found in First Ruins.

 

[Lector]

I'm kind of dismayed that the item nerfs won't go in.

I thought the underlying idea of this reinvention of SoD is to lessen the gap between the haves and have nots.

This isn't envy at all. I'm in a well oiled raiding machine of a guild already. I just don't see this helping the non-raiding population at all. Mobs will still be tweaked to make them a challenge to tanks with +400 hp gear, where JoeBlow DaWarrior is still drooling over some tradeskill crap, without a chance of ever getting better.

 

[BeittilBonker]

I'm kind of dismayed that the item nerfs won't go in.

I thought the underlying idea of this reinvention of SoD is to lessen the gap between the haves and have nots.

This isn't envy at all. I'm in a well oiled raiding machine of a guild already. I just don't see this helping the non-raiding population at all. Mobs will still be tweaked to make them a challenge to tanks with +400 hp gear, where JoeBlow DaWarrior is still drooling over some tradeskill crap, without a chance of ever getting better.

join a guild with ambitions. its simple!

the point: no1 can ever solo or dc his way to the absolute top, just join a guild that wants to evolve to better capabilities and then everybody will get his dreamgear some day

 

[gtoo]

join a guild with ambitions. its simple!

the point: no1 can ever solo or dc his way to the absolute top, just join a guild that wants to evolve to better capabilities and then everybody will get his dreamgear some day

Yes because everyone is recruiting.

 

[Lector]

Er, no offence beit..but..Um..Did you even read my post?

The part where I mentioned I was in a raiding guild already? Shit, I'm in YOUR guild.

First off, I cannot remember the last time we've activly recruited anyone. I haven't seen any upper end raid guilds recruiting in the past 6 months. The uber guilds are full. They will remain full for a long time. If they were about to start recruiting again because they couldn't find 36 players to raid on a nightly basis, they don't have to anymore. Why? Because now it's capped at 18.

So, say 300 new bodies join this server. Of those 300, say 50 of them have the ability to spend 3-8+ hours a day raiding, you know, the typical "uber player." Those 50 players have no other option but to start a new guild, and scratch their way from the very bottem. That sounds noble, and actualy not so bad, untill you realise it never works. The resident 'uber' guilds will gobble up any player in the 'new guild' that they need. This lends itself to the new guild stagnating and dieing later.

So, here again we go to JoeBlow Mcwarrior. He has 3k hp. His BP has +120 hp on it. He is standing next to Uber McUberstein, a wizard, with +300 hp on his robe, with more AC to boot. He realises that he'll either have to

1: Spend hundreds of hours setting up a new, doomed-from-the-start guild, hoping to hit the lottery. (He gets enough gear to get the coveted invite from the uber guilds, so he can ditch his current one.)

2: Apply to some other doomed-from-the-start guild and hope he wins the lottery.

3: Try another game.


The item nerf would not have fixed this issue 100%. However, the lessining of the gap would open up more options to those truely dedicated to becoming uber. They would have a real chance to get it going.

Maybe the only other option would be to boost the middle-raid-gear to almost compete with the top end? I don't know. I just wish the nerf was in place.

 

[Wiz]

I'm kind of dismayed that the item nerfs won't go in.

I thought the underlying idea of this reinvention of SoD is to lessen the gap between the haves and have nots.

This isn't envy at all. I'm in a well oiled raiding machine of a guild already. I just don't see this helping the non-raiding population at all. Mobs will still be tweaked to make them a challenge to tanks with +400 hp gear, where JoeBlow DaWarrior is still drooling over some tradeskill crap, without a chance of ever getting better.

I don't think you understood the purpose of the change. It was not to give everyone with less a gear a boost to suddenly be able to take out bigger raid mobs. That would not have happened.

What will lessen the gaps between the haves and the have nots is the fact that pretty much any guild is capable of progressing into doing any zone simply by equipping their members from named mobs, treasure maps, lower tier raid mobs, then middle tier raid mobs, etc.

The idea was never to let everyone who is currently tier 2 skip up to tier 4 and put everyone at tier 10 down to tier 8. It was to allow the people on tier 2 to progress all the way up to tier 10 without having to be in a massive guild capable of organizing 10% of the online players into a raid.

So, here again we go to JoeBlow Mcwarrior. He has 3k hp. His BP has +120 hp on it. He is standing next to Uber McUberstein, a wizard, with +300 hp on his robe, with more AC to boot. He realises that he'll either have to

1: Spend hundreds of hours setting up a new, doomed-from-the-start guild, hoping to hit the lottery. (He gets enough gear to get the coveted invite from the uber guilds, so he can ditch his current one.)

2: Apply to some other doomed-from-the-start guild and hope he wins the lottery.

3: Try another game.

4: Apply to a medium size guild and progress along with them. It's not like the game lacks content on any tier. You can always progress. The thing holding back progession - guild size - has been severely lowered. Almost every guild now has the capability to equip their members into a powerful raiding force, instead of just the very biggest guilds.

Do you think that the current top guilds just skipped over all the tiers in the middle or something?

 

[Lufia]

First off, I cannot remember the last time we've activly recruited anyone. I haven't seen any upper end raid guilds recruiting in the past 6 months. The uber guilds are full. They will remain full for a long time. If they were about to start recruiting again because they couldn't find 36 players to raid on a nightly basis, they don't have to anymore. Why? Because now it's capped at 18.

I know that the new changes have actually spurred recruitment in a few guilds. Ruin has alot of extra players that aren't getting to raid and it looks like Defiance is still alive and well.

 

[Elysium]

So just to confirm, as it stands is the second server far back on the burner? I was really excited for a new slate but sadly it looks like I may have to wait a few months before I'll be playing.

 

[Lector]

You've made some points I didn't consider Wiz. I stand corrected, however I still think the nerf would have done more good than you'd think.

I think I'll reserve any real feelings till the new content is in. May I request that at least some of the new content forgoes the idea of killing trash for 4 hours before getting to the named? Or, perhaps, make the entire raid killing trash mobs, that all have a good chance of dropping certain uber loot, in leu of a boss named?

 

[Xeldan]

I like the idea of random trash drops for sure, and it'll probably be something I pursue in future zones. I also much prefer to make clearing to a named challenging and keep you on your toes and thinking rather than it just being there as a blockade between you and the named.

 

[gtoo]

wipe, wipe, wipe...

 

[shanara99]

Er, no offence beit..but..Um..Did you even read my post?
First off, I cannot remember the last time we've activly recruited anyone. I haven't seen any upper end raid guilds recruiting in the past 6 months. The uber guilds are full. They will remain full for a long time. If they were about to start recruiting again because they couldn't find 36 players to raid on a nightly basis, they don't have to anymore. Why? Because now it's capped at 18.

Imo, raiding with 18, (and to a greater extent, faster spawns) allows a newcomer guild to start killing plaguefang, gnok, Freeport masters, Royals/basement (yah, there's no reason they can't be raided, since there's no cap there), Lavascale, Demonologist, AWT, and them all first tier raid targets, thus introducing new guilds in the equation. Sure there'll be some (unintentional or not) cockblocking... I mean... if 2 guilds are on raid entrance level, chances are they'd be cockblocking each other, just cause both need to kill same targets, and only one of them can do it. But you can always wait a couple days and try that mob then. Even with all that possible cocklocking, 2-3 days respawns allows you to just go and hit another target, unless there're 5-6 guilds in your tier... and, even then, equipping 18 peopl getting some loot every 2 days would take much less time than equiping 36 (not counting those that log only ocasionally, replacements, bots, etc) getting some loot every week. So, if there's once 5-6 guilds on a given tier, you'll just have to wait a month or two, and there... mobs are yours to kill.

Only bottlenecks I can see is IP, since CoD loot's a little worse (and CoD fights are easier, too), and OP/Sep.

Also, I'd like pointing out that there are lovely raid zones (like HoM) where almost noone, if anyone, ever raids. So imo it's all about hitting them zones/targets, since they're free and open (for starters, I never see anyone killing Melwin, who has some loot which would be good for first tier raiding guilds... or hitting the non-6 caped high level zones.) I mean... name ONE reason why you can't start raiding First Ruins.

So, say 300 new bodies join this server. Of those 300, say 50 of them have the ability to spend 3-8+ hours a day raiding, you know, the typical "uber player." Those 50 players have no other option but to start a new guild, and scratch their way from the very bottem. That sounds noble, and actualy not so bad, untill you realise it never works. The resident 'uber' guilds will gobble up any player in the 'new guild' that they need. This lends itself to the new guild stagnating and dieing later.

So, here again we go to JoeBlow Mcwarrior. He has 3k hp. His BP has +120 hp on it. He is standing next to Uber McUberstein, a wizard, with +300 hp on his robe, with more AC to boot. He realises that he'll either have to

1: Spend hundreds of hours setting up a new, doomed-from-the-start guild, hoping to hit the lottery. (He gets enough gear to get the coveted invite from the uber guilds, so he can ditch his current one.)

2: Apply to some other doomed-from-the-start guild and hope he wins the lottery.

3: Try another game.

Once again, imo, problem before was needing full force for raiding, and having only so many targets ups... a guild could easily kill all their targets in a way they'd respawn more or less in order, this, effectively cockblocking. But now... Let's consider OP/Sep. Just there there's 10 raid targets, with lots of trash in the way. On an average night, a guild can hit what? 2-3 targets? Well... let's consider 2 targets as average (meaning sometimes you beat 1, sometimes 2, sometimes 3). Now, a single guild would need 5 days to clear their tier, and, by that time, BEFORE, first mobs were be spawning. Now, a single guild still needs 5 days to clear their tier, but mobs are spawning before they got the chance to fully clear it, this allowing 3 guilds in same tier.

When you're an upstarting guild that can't find targets (because of them big mean machines farming lower tier for sellables, or because someone else have been killing them all already) you, usually, give up and try to join some other, already raiding guild. If you're improving, you mostly stay, unless you just want to find a shortcut.......

And, since no actual uber guild is recruiting, but we still advance in the raid tiers, newcomers will have DECENT options in creating new raid guilds succesfully (after all, there's no big mean uber guild stealing their players, since there's no recruiting, and they have plenty of targets to hit)