Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Fixed that for you. Also, please do not revert!
Smoothing Caster DPS
- Thread starter Zaela
- Start date
It's not a matter of relying on luck to win a fight, just a matter of not getting as much damage out of the mana you spend in the typical case where, more often than not, none of your spells would be resisted. It may alleviate the cases where you would be resisted by making them not happen, but by spreading that case out across all your fights, the typical case is dragged down, requiring you to spend more mana to make something dead than you would have in the typical case. People don't care about how long and how much it takes on average, just how long and how much it takes this time, and more often than not it will now take longer and more than it would have before.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I'm not sure how, some fights would be shorter and some would be longer...
I think you are suggesting that for many low tier players resists are so rare that they do not occur on an average fight and thus that average fight then might take longer because spells are being reduced by some very small amount (in said example)??
I don't ever remember a situation where resists were a non-issue until I was in the raid game (and later in the raid game for that matter). Low level mobs with low resists will still regularly produce resists from on tier characters without maxed cha or specialization/divination bonuses, not to mention the countless debuffs, clickies, procs that end up taking effect in the end game.
If you are losing a fight because of the new system, that requires that you would have lost the fight more than 50% of the time by the old system.
I think you are suggesting that for many low tier players resists are so rare that they do not occur on an average fight and thus that average fight then might take longer because spells are being reduced by some very small amount (in said example)??
I don't ever remember a situation where resists were a non-issue until I was in the raid game (and later in the raid game for that matter). Low level mobs with low resists will still regularly produce resists from on tier characters without maxed cha or specialization/divination bonuses, not to mention the countless debuffs, clickies, procs that end up taking effect in the end game.
If you are losing a fight because of the new system, that requires that you would have lost the fight more than 50% of the time by the old system.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Shouldn't it be enough that a solid majority of players seem to like the change? And some of the minority was certainly biased by the early bugs in the system that are fixed by now.
I realize there are situations where devs need to step in and do something unpopular to help ensure our game survives/thrives... but I dont think this is one of those cases. This isn't a buff to anyone (or a nerf), it certainly does not make the game easier, it's removing an archaic system that artificially gives you bigger numbers, in exchange for giving you random zeros. Nothing sucks more than dieing because your final spell is resisted. If you go oom before something dies in the old system or new, you probably shouldn't be fighting it (unless you just had really bad luckin the old system).
If this had been the system in place from the beginning, we wouldnt have any of the "i do less damage" complaints because people would already be used to a system where doing low damage = a mob is resistant to that element.
I realize there are situations where devs need to step in and do something unpopular to help ensure our game survives/thrives... but I dont think this is one of those cases. This isn't a buff to anyone (or a nerf), it certainly does not make the game easier, it's removing an archaic system that artificially gives you bigger numbers, in exchange for giving you random zeros. Nothing sucks more than dieing because your final spell is resisted. If you go oom before something dies in the old system or new, you probably shouldn't be fighting it (unless you just had really bad luckin the old system).
If this had been the system in place from the beginning, we wouldnt have any of the "i do less damage" complaints because people would already be used to a system where doing low damage = a mob is resistant to that element.
Animand
Dalayan Elder
If a mob resists a low end player like 10% of the time, and they cast on it on average 3 times a fight, then most fights will go by without a resist in the old system. Now, on every fight, they're losing 10% of their previous DPS, making the fight longer. So over 70% of their fights are now longer because of the resist changes. Although the decrease in fight length compared to when a mob resists pretty much balances it out, people will not see that. Thus, the general feeling would tend to be that fights take longer now.
This is why that sentiment exists. While the logic for the assertion doesn't hold water, their is great statistical backing for why people would feel this way, and also for why they would prefer the old system (as they get the benefit of feeling faster kills most of the time).
The question then becomes if it's worth having people adapt to the newer, arguably better system, and wading through their kneejerk response until they can properly gauge the benefits.
This is why that sentiment exists. While the logic for the assertion doesn't hold water, their is great statistical backing for why people would feel this way, and also for why they would prefer the old system (as they get the benefit of feeling faster kills most of the time).
The question then becomes if it's worth having people adapt to the newer, arguably better system, and wading through their kneejerk response until they can properly gauge the benefits.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I get the thread people are grasping at, but as a caster that solo'd a lot of the way to 65 and a lot of my AAs as a fresh 65 (since soloing is the only situation where there is any strain of reliability in the number of casts it takes to kill a mob) I think its a stretch.
First off, if a mob takes 3 nukes to cast, and you are getting reduced by 10%, there is only a 30% chance that the new system would cause you to cast an extra spell. 70% of the time, the mobs hp would be low enough that you would *always* kill it in 3 nukes. This actually brings up a weird situation where the change actually does make people stronger, but this situation is pretty rare.
There aren't many points in the game where you can kill a mob for exp with 3 nukes. There are places where it happens, right at a spell level, killing a low level mob. More often though, its going to take a lot more than 3 nukes, and maybe I have rose colored glasses, but as a nub wizard I remember getting resisted more like 15-20% of the time on your average non resistant mob. Resists were common and expected when kiting for exp.
I'm sure there is someone somewhere that fits the mold you are describing, and happens to hit that mob hp sweetspot where suddenly they have to nuke an extra time per cast, but this is an rare situation, and not (imo) a good justification to revoke a really great improvement for the server that most players appreciate.
First off, if a mob takes 3 nukes to cast, and you are getting reduced by 10%, there is only a 30% chance that the new system would cause you to cast an extra spell. 70% of the time, the mobs hp would be low enough that you would *always* kill it in 3 nukes. This actually brings up a weird situation where the change actually does make people stronger, but this situation is pretty rare.
There aren't many points in the game where you can kill a mob for exp with 3 nukes. There are places where it happens, right at a spell level, killing a low level mob. More often though, its going to take a lot more than 3 nukes, and maybe I have rose colored glasses, but as a nub wizard I remember getting resisted more like 15-20% of the time on your average non resistant mob. Resists were common and expected when kiting for exp.
I'm sure there is someone somewhere that fits the mold you are describing, and happens to hit that mob hp sweetspot where suddenly they have to nuke an extra time per cast, but this is an rare situation, and not (imo) a good justification to revoke a really great improvement for the server that most players appreciate.
And thus your dues are paid and you are now a man.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Its even more fun literally kiting mobs and waiting for harvest to repop *again* while you run an entire zone w/o sow strafing to gain enough room between me and the mob to cast harvest, get stunned, and keep moving before the mob mauls me to death.
Now admittedly these are fond memories, but they happen irregardless of the system. A leveling player doesn't know exactly what they can handle, and eventually you bite off more than you can chew. When I was forced into it because of resists It was not fun, and I usually just zoned with a mob at 2% hp because it was easier and faster to zone and med full again than kite until I had the mana for another nuke.
Now admittedly these are fond memories, but they happen irregardless of the system. A leveling player doesn't know exactly what they can handle, and eventually you bite off more than you can chew. When I was forced into it because of resists It was not fun, and I usually just zoned with a mob at 2% hp because it was easier and faster to zone and med full again than kite until I had the mana for another nuke.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Sub 65 players are not looked down upon or cast to the side, many of my examples pertained specifically to those people...
Single nukes are scaled down in trade for NEVER GETTING RESISTED. Overall your damage remains the same. The only real arguement I can see here is that people don't see numbers as big as they used to, and if you just see that and dont look or think about the big picture, you might thing your overall damage is reduced, but it is not.
Single nukes are scaled down in trade for NEVER GETTING RESISTED. Overall your damage remains the same. The only real arguement I can see here is that people don't see numbers as big as they used to, and if you just see that and dont look or think about the big picture, you might thing your overall damage is reduced, but it is not.
How is it not getting scaled down? With hardly any resists to speak of before this change was made I was doing X damage after casting a few different spells. Now I'm doing X-600(ish) damage with the same spells. That 600 or more damage is not being done with my spells but now is where? Since according to you it still happens somehow...
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
If a mob would resist your spell 10% of the time, it instead reduces your damage by 10%.
Say your base damage is 1000.
Old system: Cast spell 10 times, do 1000 damage 9 times, and get resisted 1 time.
New system: Cast spell 10 times, do 900 damage 10 times.
Either way you do 9000 damage.
Say your base damage is 1000.
Old system: Cast spell 10 times, do 1000 damage 9 times, and get resisted 1 time.
New system: Cast spell 10 times, do 900 damage 10 times.
Either way you do 9000 damage.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
That may be your imagination because seeing less damage is more bothersome to some people than seeing resists which they were used to seeing. The fact of the matter is that it DOES work like I said, and overall damage does remain the same.
Luckily most people can see that and understand why its beneficial and like the change.
Luckily most people can see that and understand why its beneficial and like the change.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Then either you are lying/wrong or the numbers were messed up when the change was put in and it's not working as intended, it's really that simple.
CharmCitysKing
Dalayan Elder
So by this new system does increasing your CHA increase your DPS?
Boehm
Dalayan Elder
This is unnecessarily harsh. He is saying that he is looking at spell damage as a singular event and not a statistical trend. He is not in a place of progression where he has spent entire fights casting lure, or if a mage blowing their mana bar into sequential resists then making a sandwich after their pet dies.
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
I have played all the caster classes (and a druid and a shadowknight) to 65 and beyond, and in all six cases, soloed/boxed 55+ of those levels. I know the low level game; it was/is fun, and was/is frustrating, usually because of the way the low level population is spread out over their favorite hunting spots. I wish this change had gone in years ago. If you honestly believe that 10% or 15% less damage isn't a worthy tradeoff for never having to worry about a nuke being resisted, I'm concerned that you aren't utilizing your spellset properly.
If you are a levelling necro or mage (especially mage), this change ups your untwinked soloability significantly, because you don't have to rely on CHA and specialization to land DDs between rains, or those (oft in the old system) fire and magic dots. My mage *always* pulled a seemingly high number of tragically timed resists.
This change is amazing.
If you are a levelling necro or mage (especially mage), this change ups your untwinked soloability significantly, because you don't have to rely on CHA and specialization to land DDs between rains, or those (oft in the old system) fire and magic dots. My mage *always* pulled a seemingly high number of tragically timed resists.
This change is amazing.