Silence Nerf

I don't get why the devs dont use other skill mods like flying kick, tiger claw, round kick, and the others to help with monk dps. Maybe people would use different combos if certain itemization made their skills and the combo do way more dps. Also I didn't think the h2h mods on either silence or matrons grasp were a problem. Really the only reason matrons grasp was overpowered was because the pbaoe proc let you destroy low end 65 zones. Otherwise it was fine.
 
not to sound too facetious, but perhaps The Vision is to have monks do less dps than other classes.
 
What is more amazing is that admins never learn that everytime they ninja nerf items ppl get mad and they quit the game.
 
Dinadass said:
But now you do have bs augs so it's a non issue, while monks don't have that option.
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I didn't wear those wrists for backstab mods, they were just part of the pretty number sacrifices I made to be at the top of my DPS game, as opposed to the stinkers and baddies wearing an 8th arm wrist so they could replace their charm and do less DPS but have a prettier fomelo.

Having itemization sets to specialize towards specific tasks is what I always enjoyed the most about SoD...well, second to slaying dragons with friends for phats. True story, my crappy alt monk tanked the melee-immune golem-things on GotSS once (successfully I might add) using a few select clickies, stances and special attacks that "nobody uses because they're worthless" and a specific set of gear choices to maximize the qualities needed for the encounter. It was probably the best day of my life at the time.
 
Dimmi said:
I didn't wear those wrists for backstab mods, they were just part of the pretty number sacrifices I made to be at the top of my DPS game, as opposed to the stinkers and baddies wearing an 8th arm wrist so they could replace their charm and do less DPS but have a prettier fomelo.

Having itemization sets to specialize towards specific tasks is what I always enjoyed the most about SoD...well, second to slaying dragons with friends for phats. True story, my crappy alt monk tanked the melee-immune golem-things on GotSS once (successfully I might add) using a few select clickies, stances and special attacks that "nobody uses because they're worthless" and a specific set of gear choices to maximize the qualities needed for the encounter. It was probably the best day of my life at the time.
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Having different options for gear is fine; having vastly undertiered items being superior to on-tier items for fulfilling the main role of your class is usually not. The same was true of human bane stacking and that got scrapped (although monks/rogues at the high end are still waiting for the necessary replacement to bring them back up to where they should be).

This is especially true with the current dev goals of not having any items that are outliers in terms of power and every tier bringing small incremental increases in stats/dps/etc.

For reference:
Waldoff said:
No one is arguing that melee do lower DPS on high end mobs. The bane change was about consistency and item diversity. Melee falling behind in the highest tiers is a complex problem, spanning mana increases, fight durations, inappropriate spell resist scaling, too many caster-centric tome increases/too few melee and the desire to move combat away from just being autoattack.

Simply increasing all melee damage by X is not a good solution, given the roots of the problem. Bane was an even worse "solution"... to the point where it was not even a solution given all the periphery problems it caused.

Bane is now more balanced, does not require loot hoarding and stacking, and still gives a relatively large bonus when it is used correctly.
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Slaariel said:
I agree some people have too much DPS and others have too little as they advance in the game.
This change was about implementing a better bane system overall and nothing else.
I understand that the change lowered DPS on already-hurting melee classes.
Official Dev Word On The Subject: Rogues and Monks are not optimal DPS on highest-end content.
That is how it is right now.
No one wants it to stay this way, but that is how it is right now.
There are a lot of problems in the game and most do not have to do with rogue/monk DPS and the order in which we address problems is not always optimal (for anyone).
Fighting against Bane changes from the perspective of rogue / monk DPS, though, is pointless. Instead of fight against bane change, maybe fight for future rogue / monk changes. We all got ideas, but can use more.
"Increase DPS" is not an idea.

Okay I think that's everything.
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Waldoff said:
How do they water down the experience?

Why is attempting to make power increases happen in small increments so old content is not obsolesced "artificial"?

If it is artificial, is there a natural way to do it or is the game just going to end/grow unsustainably?

What is the correct way to do it?
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Dimmi said:
At least you can solo an EW orc
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I rather enjoy soloing EW orcs when there's nothing else around to do. It's awful exp and even worse loot since I can't easily handle the named pulls, but still, it's SOMETHING I can do rogue-solo.
 
Animand said:
I rather enjoy soloing EW orcs when there's nothing else around to do. It's awful exp and even worse loot since I can't easily handle the named pulls, but still, it's SOMETHING I can do rogue-solo.
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I started kiting EW orcs with skysplitters by parking a druid or a Thade-bot there for wolf/bihli...after getting ninja stars and a few choice items I got to where I could kite the entire fort...but it was tedious as all get out.

At the same time I could take my crappy monk alt and just tank the damn thing with a sub-65 shaman healing =\
 
Waldoff said:
Not asking for them to provide the numbers themselves. When you make a post asking for an item to be changed your argument must be specific and take the items around that item into account. Everyone in the debate has access to the numbers, the difference is I think they are correct or near correct while they don't. The onus is on the player wanting a change to show the the devs they are not correct and that takes more than general statements or complaining.
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So after looking through the various +h2h and gloves in the game, I'm seeing two issues with the current situation.

First, it's trivially easy for a fresh 65 monk or beastlord to obtain enough +h2h to wind up with fists that are 18/18 +2 ele damage, or 19/18 if the specialization is causing better fist ratios like you say it might. I twinked out a level 1 beastlord yesterday, and for ~2000pp capped his +h2h at +25 and got gloves with +2 fire damage. There are better boe gloves available as well that have +3 damage and/or a proc, I simply bought cheap ones with no rec level. This is problematic because it makes pretty much every weapon inferior to bare fists while progressing through the raid tiers, and it also causes monk/beastlord DPS to scale completely differently than any other class (plateau early on and end up being left behind by other classes at the high end).

Also, the glove progression is a mess now. It starts off alright... there are numerous BOE gloves with +2 or +3 ele damage or some +h2h, some with procs and some without. But when you look at where it goes from there, you can see the problem:

Tier 6: Fistwraps of the Chosen. +15 h2h, 2 fire damage, 1.9% proc of 150dd
Tier 9: Handwraps of Twisted Souls. +10 h2h, 6 disease damage, 4.5% proc of 400dd
Tier 9: Silence. +10 h2h, 6 magic damage, 6% proc of 125dd
Tier 10: Ule's Conception. +10 h2h, 6 fire damage, 10% proc of 27 AOE
Tier 13: The Matron's Grasp. +5 h2h, 6 fire damage, 2.9% proc of 640dd

So, currently +h2h on gloves actually decreases as you advance in SoD. On top of that, the number of relatively on-tier armor pieces with +h2h to use also decrease as you get to higher tiers. Tier 9 gloves currently perform better than Tier 13 gloves in terms of DPS.

I'd recommend two things. Put Blazewind gloves back where they should be- Every other dps class receives enormous dps increases between tiers 9 and 13. And do something about the way +h2h works now. Either completely revamp the availability of the +h2h mod or change it to scale differently.
 
Don't be scurred, Dimmi, you can stab 2 of them to death just fine and eat whatever bit of damage they do, even unbuffed. Healing can be obnoxious, though. What kind of fake-ranger were you playing at?
 
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So before cless and dimmi derailed this there was some conversation happening. Do we think we might get a plan on this or like a vague official response?
 
Gloves/H2H Mod:

Revert the code that causes +H2H to increase naked fist ratio. This is imbalanced at low tiers with charm of the brute and other gimp h2h skill mod items available and unable to be reached at high tiers without using inferior equipment. Instead increase the elemental damage on the monk/beast gloves. Give them all pbae procs so monks have some fun pbae damage potential. The H2H skill mods can be returned to reasonable levels again so that it helps those with real h2h weapons. Apparently Matrons grasp was too powerful of an AE weapon, but I don’t know how much, I just assumed it was twice as good as is reasonable, so I think a 200 fire ae at the same proc rate would be then be reasonable, and I scaled the lower tier gloves from that. I do not think monks/bsts should all be running around without weapons all the time because naked fists are best in tier dps for both single target an ae situations.



Fistwraps of the Chosen +5 H2H 6 fire damage 2.8% chance to 70 fire pbae

Handwraps of Twisted Souls +10 H2H 7 disease damage 2.8% chance to 100 disease pbae
K
Silence +15 H2H 7 magic damage 2.8% chanceu to 125 magic pbae

Ule’s Conception +15 H2H 7 fire damage 2.8% chance to 125 fire pbae

Edit: there is no t11 gloves but i think warped slave gloves would be appropriate potential addition
Gloves of violent paroxysms add 15 h2h 8 poison damage and 140 poison pbae

Matron’s Grasp +15 H2H 9 fire damage 2.8% chance to 200 fire pbae



Force of Body:

This change doesn’t help monk single target dps at all though, to correct that I would recommend changing Force of Body tome to instead increase damage and accuracy of all monk special attacks. Adding a flat 150 damage and 5% accurary increase per rank of FoB. A flat increase to each attack is necessary instead of a percentage as the lower level attacks most often used do almost 0 damage. At max rank, special attacking every 6s, this would provide 100dps increase, which may not actually be enough, although I don’t remember how fast the kicks reset, it may be slightly faster fully hasted.
 
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Also monks have no burn stance which is a real problem with them being useful on dps burn encounters. Should really change or add a stamina draining stance that provides a significant dps boost while active.
 
So I just ran some parses today with my bare fists and blazewind gloves. And I do more DPS using a Charm of the Brute than I do using my Supreme. This is pretty fucked up.
 
Any update on the H2H situation? At the very least bumping Matron's Grasp up to 15 or 20 h2h and dropping Fistwraps of the Chosen to +5 would correct the fact that +h2h on gloves progresses backwards as you get into higher tiers. It's impossible to cap H2H with high tier gear currently, meaning that in order to actually use blazewind gloves you need to equip either a charm of the brute, BOE gear, or low tier raid items. We already give up a ton of stats to use fists instead of weapons, any more makes it essentially impossible for any challenging content.

Raxton's above suggestion about undoing the overcap h2h change and retuning gloves is also a good way to go.

If the staff wants to keep the overcap h2h system in place, I think dropping the mod on Charm of the Brute to +5 and the various BOE pieces to +2 or +3 would be a good move; twinks in BOE gear should not have fists with ratios of 18/18 (coming from a guy who has such a twink). Add some more +5 h2h mods to low and mid tier raid drops and correct the glove +h2h progression.

Or if it's possible, make it so only overcap h2h on gloves adds damage to base fists and other sources of h2h just work like all the other weapon mods. That makes it a lot simpler to balance and itemize; no more trying to account for people stacking gimmicky items to maximize fist ratios (similar to humanoid bane). This would have a similar result as Raxton's suggestion, where gloves are essentially weapons in their own right and don't require stacking other random items to be viable.
 
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Time for another monthly bump to remind people that H2H is completely fucked up and as a result so is weapon progression/itemization for monks and beastlords.

Charm of the Brute (62pp) + Wandering Fungus Wraps (~300pp) + BST mq aug or High Paw's Hand (25pp) + any of a dozen BOE gloves (100-5000pp) > nearly every raid weapon in the game.
 
DPS combo nuke already lets low/mid tier monks do plenty of dps. My Beastlord was the highest DPS in Terrible while it lasted though, beating rogues and casters with tier 7ish weapons and relic spells. It's pretty silly.

Also maybe the h2h fix would make blazewind gloves worth using again. Not that anyone with them still plays but maybe some day!
 
Raxton said:
Gloves/H2H Mod:

Revert the code that causes +H2H to increase naked fist ratio. This is imbalanced at low tiers with charm of the brute and other gimp h2h skill mod items available and unable to be reached at high tiers without using inferior equipment. Instead increase the elemental damage on the monk/beast gloves. Give them all pbae procs so monks have some fun pbae damage potential. The H2H skill mods can be returned to reasonable levels again so that it helps those with real h2h weapons. Apparently Matrons grasp was too powerful of an AE weapon, but I don’t know how much, I just assumed it was twice as good as is reasonable, so I think a 200 fire ae at the same proc rate would be then be reasonable, and I scaled the lower tier gloves from that. I do not think monks/bsts should all be running around without weapons all the time because naked fists are best in tier dps for both single target an ae situations.



Fistwraps of the Chosen +5 H2H 6 fire damage 2.8% chance to 70 fire pbae

Handwraps of Twisted Souls +10 H2H 7 disease damage 2.8% chance to 100 disease pbae
K
Silence +15 H2H 7 magic damage 2.8% chanceu to 125 magic pbae

Ule’s Conception +15 H2H 7 fire damage 2.8% chance to 125 fire pbae

Edit: there is no t11 gloves but i think warped slave gloves would be appropriate potential addition
Gloves of violent paroxysms add 15 h2h 8 poison damage and 140 poison pbae

Matron’s Grasp +15 H2H 9 fire damage 2.8% chance to 200 fire pbae
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I thought this was a cool post with a cool idea that should be considered. I don't actually main a monk though so I don't know how real monks feel about this
 
10 minute parses against a level 65 mob. Full standard dps buffs including CotP, RBoW, etc.

Offensive stance, spamming round kick (dps combo) from start to finish.

Horok + Fist of the Dawn: 795 DPS

Nail of Festering Decay + Hand of Twisted Magics: 700 DPS

Bare fists, charm of the brute, Saturated Spirit Gloves: 740 DPS

So, using a 60pp charm over a 1.2 million pp charm and BOE gloves instead of tier 11 weapons with t13 gloves, and my DPS goes up. There are other BOE gloves that would also do nearly as much DPS as well.

Either +h2h needs to be revamped or monks need a way to have weapons be competitive because right now the whole situation is imbalanced as hell and has been for a long time.
 
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