So without trying to sound too whiny here, what was the reason for the change? I kinda feel special, lol, since I might be the only main left that actually uses this item, but I'm not really a huge threat to outparse anyone with anywhere near comparable character development, so I kinda don't see why. I know whoever did this probably didn't even know who I am, so I have no illusions that this is directed at me in anyway, but like, how did this even get on the radar as something that needed to be done? I know it's a really subtle change, but tbh I thought we kinda needed a little help, while other classes that kinda blow mine away these days have complaint threads. Confused and a little bummed out, lol.
Silence Nerf
- Thread starter huey
- Start date
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
That seams like terrible logic Susvain.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Especially since silence has been in game for a lot longer than blaze wind and balanced.
Wouldn't it make more sense to worry about it if it actually made us outparse like literally almost anyone with a comparable character? I could see that logic if the change to those mods actually made us powerful, but they really didn't. At all. The reason I haven't really posted on this kinda stuff, is one, I wanna have something constructive, maybe some idea to be able to toss in if I do post, and two, I'm afraid if I bring anything to light, the way things have been lately, instead of getting monks a little help, they're just gonna find a way to nerf everyone above us. But I still just don't see why now on this. What was wrong? I doubt anyone active right now is gonna see blazewind gloves very soon (hell, if ever), so I just don't buy that.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Well for two weeks, bare fists and flying kick were doing thousands of dps if you had the mods because there was an error in the FK formula and Woldaff thought monks would have like +5 HtH rather than the +20-25 that all mid/high tier people had. Then the change was greatly reduced so that bare fists with appropriate gloves were slightly outparsing similar tier weapons, which I thought was pretty balanced since it meant losing a lot of hp and stats by not equipping weapons. Then blaze gloves were nerfed so hugely that they were worse dps than Silence. And now Silence has been nerfed to rectify that imbalance I guess.
Yeah, I agreed the bw glove nerf was a little crazy. (I purposefully stayed out of dps situations while we were broken btw, lol, it kinda made me feel dirty so I kinda took most of that week off) I still just don't agree that there's good logic here. I'd understand if there was any indication of anything in the works to actually change anything else for the better, but this logic seems more like your car being almost covered in mud, and instead of logic leading you to clean it, you find mud for the last couple clean spots. I guess I just wanna know if there's something going on that I don't know about, or if monks are actually thought of as being just fine balancewise, in which case I could drop any hopes, and plan accordingly.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Yes it would be sweet to have the fist/glove situation improved, along with making more than two of our combos worth using and tweaking the combos so that flying kick was used instead of round kick. Because as it stands one of our class tomes and the adjusted FK mod system are almost completely worthless, not to mention that there are only like 4 items with +FK in the game in the first place.
the problem is that the people making these nerfs are looking at paper and have no idea how that translates into game because they haven't played it in years, so one dev makes h2h mods give a big boost because monks are broken and their dps is shit, and then another dev nerfs the h2h mods because fixing a broken class with itemization is bad for some reason even though itemization is an integral part of all class balance and then just leaves the class broken again instead of implementing some other reasonable fix which is pretty much why I don't play anymore.
As fun as it is to watch people spout misinformation about what dev does what, and how much the devs just don't *understand* you or your raids, you guys need to start using the actual numbers of the gloves before and after if you want this thread to go anywhere but the trash can.
That means the ratios, the procs, the effects on DPS and PBAE damage, and a comparison to other items around the tier. The same thing we ask of every weapon balance thread (and honestly any balance thread) - you do not get a free ride just because the ratio is not on the item itself.
That means the ratios, the procs, the effects on DPS and PBAE damage, and a comparison to other items around the tier. The same thing we ask of every weapon balance thread (and honestly any balance thread) - you do not get a free ride just because the ratio is not on the item itself.
Woldaff we did all of this with Slaariel for weeks which is what got the h2h mod changes put into the game to begin with. I must have personally showed him a dozen parses and I know there were a dozen other monks talking about changes and posting in the monks thread. Then you come along with a limited frame of reference, nerf monk items, leave monks worse than they were to start with and then demand that we prove it all over again.
Can you see how that might be frustrating?
I am confused why you think it was just me, and not the entire dev team talking it over including Slaariel.
Anyway, I am sorry you are frustrated. The way H2H was handled likely could have been thought out better. But that does not mean the gloves were anywhere near balanced, in DPS but especially in PBAE damage. Silence was given the 20 H2H before the H2H changes were put in, and somehow was missed when the dev that put H2H in queried for back changes.
Seriously though, I am always open to a discussion of the numbers. I do not think anyone can honestly say the Blazewind gloves were fine as they were prior. If you think they were overnerfed, or that SIlence was overnerfed, bring out the ratios and lets compare and contrast.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Thi biggest thing I can see without getting into exact numbers is that the price you pay for more dps using gloves is the loss of stats/ac/hps of 2 weapons.
For instance:
Susvain would lose stats, 20 ac, and almost 450 hps.
Fidel would lose stats, 20ac, and 460 hps
Hugh doesnt have his weapons in so I can't look at that at this time.
How much dps is stat, ac, and roughly 5% of ones life worth?
Most high end monk weapons are in the range of 1 ratio or a bit better. A monk's base ratio is 13/18 or .722. With silence currently would put it at 13/18 with potential that can be resisted to 19/18 if my math serves me correctly. Blazewind gloves would give the same ratio but fire damage instead of magic.
With that being said now the big difference is the procs for monk.
Silence 6% chance to do 60 dmg
Blacewind 3% chance to do 640 dmg
Horok 11% chance to cast a 200hp/tick dot
Nail of Festering decay 4% chance to do 80 dmg
Fist of the dawn 5% chance to do 360dmg
Here are some comparable procs and ratios for other classes:
Bane of the fallen god - .92 - 1.08 ratio and 4.8% chance to proc 125pt DD and a lifetap
Galeforce - .9 to .95 ratio and 6% chance to do a 100pt dd 45pt dot and slow
caretakers will - .95 ratio 5.6% chance to proc a lot of things
Ortananoch - 1 - 1.318 and 4.4 chance to proc a 75% overhaste
ysar - .96 - 1.04 and 5.7% to proc 250pt dd and dot
brain sucker - .94 - .97 and 11.8% to proc 555 dd
Calcified Perfection - .942 tp 1.019 and 6.5% to proc 73pt DD
Rat-Claw - .9 and 1% chance to proc 110 DD and 256 pt dot
Blade of Green Mist - .86 - .9 and 2.7% to proc 260 DD
spirit harvest - .8 ratio and 100% proc of 150pt lifetap
Ortaninim - .9 to .96 ratio and 3.1% chance to proc 900pt DD
In my opinion without parsing and testing every one of these weapons it could be reasoned that the loss of 500hps is not worth the gain from going bare fist in any cirumstances. I think that the bare fist damage needs to be significantly increased especially since monks already had been parsing bottom of the barrel and they get minimum utility. Maybe the super high end monks with old MW gloves were a little unbalanced but even then they did not always top the charts or even come in top 3. If anything there should be more elemental damage added back to both sets of gloves and have the procs/proc rates looked into.
For instance:
Susvain would lose stats, 20 ac, and almost 450 hps.
Fidel would lose stats, 20ac, and 460 hps
Hugh doesnt have his weapons in so I can't look at that at this time.
How much dps is stat, ac, and roughly 5% of ones life worth?
Most high end monk weapons are in the range of 1 ratio or a bit better. A monk's base ratio is 13/18 or .722. With silence currently would put it at 13/18 with potential that can be resisted to 19/18 if my math serves me correctly. Blazewind gloves would give the same ratio but fire damage instead of magic.
With that being said now the big difference is the procs for monk.
Silence 6% chance to do 60 dmg
Blacewind 3% chance to do 640 dmg
Horok 11% chance to cast a 200hp/tick dot
Nail of Festering decay 4% chance to do 80 dmg
Fist of the dawn 5% chance to do 360dmg
Here are some comparable procs and ratios for other classes:
Bane of the fallen god - .92 - 1.08 ratio and 4.8% chance to proc 125pt DD and a lifetap
Galeforce - .9 to .95 ratio and 6% chance to do a 100pt dd 45pt dot and slow
caretakers will - .95 ratio 5.6% chance to proc a lot of things
Ortananoch - 1 - 1.318 and 4.4 chance to proc a 75% overhaste
ysar - .96 - 1.04 and 5.7% to proc 250pt dd and dot
brain sucker - .94 - .97 and 11.8% to proc 555 dd
Calcified Perfection - .942 tp 1.019 and 6.5% to proc 73pt DD
Rat-Claw - .9 and 1% chance to proc 110 DD and 256 pt dot
Blade of Green Mist - .86 - .9 and 2.7% to proc 260 DD
spirit harvest - .8 ratio and 100% proc of 150pt lifetap
Ortaninim - .9 to .96 ratio and 3.1% chance to proc 900pt DD
In my opinion without parsing and testing every one of these weapons it could be reasoned that the loss of 500hps is not worth the gain from going bare fist in any cirumstances. I think that the bare fist damage needs to be significantly increased especially since monks already had been parsing bottom of the barrel and they get minimum utility. Maybe the super high end monks with old MW gloves were a little unbalanced but even then they did not always top the charts or even come in top 3. If anything there should be more elemental damage added back to both sets of gloves and have the procs/proc rates looked into.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
I am on the monks side on this one. They have gotten the short end of the stick recently after the 1/2 installed combat abilities that only 2 are very useful. BW and Silence glove nerf, ontop of already being sub par dps.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
What does this even mean? I checked my bank and every other pair of raid gloves from tier 5ish on up now have higher H2H mods than Silence and Matron's Grasp. You guys made H2H mods increase bare fist damage and then gut the H2H mods on the two most commonly used gloves while leaving the rest alone as far as I can tell. Why?
I can honestly say that Blazewind gloves were fine as they were. They let us do almost as much single target DPS as the real dps classes and let us do moderate AOE DPS. Now we're back to hybrid DPS levels and doing less AOE DPS than the warrior tank.
Blaze gloves currently are roughly the same single target DPS as Horok and Fist of the Dawn, at least according to the series of parses I conducted today. However, I lose 450 health, 20 AC, 80 combined resists, and a bunch of stats when I use my bare fists. On top of that I lose the self healing from Horok's proc, and I lose the slight group/raid DPS increase caused by the Horok proc lowering my target's resists. I also eat more ripostes and tear myself up more on damage shielded mobs as a result of attacking almost twice as fast with my bare fists vs. weapons.
On top of that, blazewind gloves were substantially weaker against anything with moderate or high fire resist, were extremely risky on any content where I'm taking a lot of damage and causing my healer to gheal more frequently because I'm gimping my stats to use the gloves, and completely unusable against any content with targets being mezzed. These factors account for a rather substantial percentage of relevant group/raid content at the high end.
Maybe I am not being clear. I will explain in more depth.
For the first 7 years of SoD, Hand to Hand mod did very little. Lets say .01% damage to hand to hand. Because of this, devs put bunches of H2H mods on items throughout the tiers.
When H2H was made to greatly increase fist damage, these items still retained their high H2H. You can call it "gutting" all you want, but if something is nearly useless and then it is made really useful, items that had it prior to the buff need to be changed.
Nifty Chart: http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Hand_to_Hand
Are the raid gloves in your bank not on that chart? Remember that you have to factor in Elemental Damage, H2H mod and proc to get the total glove power. You can not look at one to the isolation of the rest to say something is under/overpowered.
If you honestly think 17/18 +8 fire damage and a PBAE 400 damage proc that hits 6 targets with a relatively high proc percentage is fine as is, then I am not sure what to tell you. I am actually 85% sure it is 18/18 after mods, but I am not near the codebase to check. Of course, since you can get H2H from other places, this ratio can go even *higher*
You can argue that monks are broken till you are blue in the face, but a single weapon jumping that far from the weapon previous to it is not balanced, and not a way to fix a class.