Silence Nerf

[Waldoff]

Most high end monk weapons are in the range of 1 ratio or a bit better. A monk's base ratio is 13/18 or .722. With silence currently would put it at 13/18 with potential that can be resisted to 19/18 if my math serves me correctly. Blazewind gloves would give the same ratio but fire damage instead of magic.

Without any H2H other than the gloves themselves anywhere on the monk (which is a pretty huge assumption), Silence is currently 16/18 plus 6 magic damage and proc. This is also assuming away the 1 extra damage that I am pretty sure is added via specialization mods.

 

[burt6]

You can argue that monks are broken till you are blue in the face, but a single weapon jumping that far from the weapon previous to it is not balanced, and not a way to fix a class.

ok so fix the class,

 

[Moraelintz]

You are right it isn't the way to fix the class, not nerfing all the hth mods once the skill was fixed would have been a start. Then maybe adding a stance that allows hard burn dps when bare fisted would have been a second, and altering the proc % would have been a third, not nerfing it beyond usefulness.

On my post I pointed out all these other weapons that have better or similar ratios with better or similar procs at no cost if stat hp ac reduction.

 

[Dinadass]

If you honestly think 17/18 +8 fire damage and a PBAE 400 damage proc that hits 6 targets with a relatively high proc percentage is fine as is, then I am not sure what to tell you. I am actually 85% sure it is 18/18 after mods, but I am not near the codebase to check. Of course, since you can get H2H from other places, this ratio can go even *higher*

Yes I think that big scary ratio is fine as is because monks were not dominating the DPS charts on every fight in the game and single handedly trivializing fights or whatever it is you think was going on. The top rangers wizards mages rogues were still doing consistently higher dps across the 6man/raid content at the high end, at least according to all of the exo and fwf parses I've spent a great deal of time looking through. And how on earth is 2.9% a relatively high proc rate? Also +h2h caps at +25 afaik, and there are very few non-glove items at the high end that have +h2h on them (actually there is a grand total of 1 such item), so it's not like it was possible to stack a ton of +h2h on top of the 20 that blazewind gloves had.

You can argue that monks are broken till you are blue in the face, but a single weapon jumping that far from the weapon previous to it is not balanced, and not a way to fix a class.

I guess this is the big sticking point that will always cause grief then. This game is rife with individual items, tomes, spells, etc. that are substantially better than they "should" be, or substantially weaker. In the case of the blazewind gloves and monks, this substantial DPS improvement actually let us do balanced DPS compared to our similarly geared/tomed guild members in some situations and with substantial sacrifices. Now that has been removed to "balance" the game and monks are back to being inferior and you have achieved the opposite of balancing the game. If you had done this in tandem with adjusting weapons as a whole, or the combo system, or anything, to bring the monk DPS curve in line with where it should be, then that would be fine. But taking away the crutch and then just leaving the situation alone just breaks the game even worse than it was.

 

[Raxton]

Monk dps is fairly bad, and the combo system while trying to address this helped but didn't do it well because it failed to scale at all. It basically added 150 dps to all monks. Tier7 to Tier11 monks all have dmg7 so their combos all do the same dps, barring the miniscule difference in crit tomes/charm spell crit. So ya weapons as a patch sort of made things nice for the monks with blazewind gloves, but not all monks have those, so what are non blazewind monks supposed to do? I think if the monk / bst proc gloves as a whole were reworked throughout the tiers to all proc pbaoe spells, so their niche could be remove your weapons and do ok pbaoe damage it would be neat. I think they should not be best in tier single target damage as well though.

 

[Tuidion]

As fun as it is to watch people spout misinformation about what dev does what, and how much the devs just don't *understand* you or your raids, you guys need to start using the actual numbers of the gloves before and after if you want this thread to go anywhere but the trash can.

That means the ratios, the procs, the effects on DPS and PBAE damage, and a comparison to other items around the tier. The same thing we ask of every weapon balance thread (and honestly any balance thread) - you do not get a free ride just because the ratio is not on the item itself.

Am I crazy to think that if you guys are changing items, that you would have all the numbers you are asking us to provide?

 

[Waldoff]

Am I crazy to think that if you guys are changing items, that you would have all the numbers you are asking us to provide?

Not asking for them to provide the numbers themselves. When you make a post asking for an item to be changed your argument must be specific and take the items around that item into account. Everyone in the debate has access to the numbers, the difference is I think they are correct or near correct while they don't. The onus is on the player wanting a change to show the the devs they are not correct and that takes more than general statements or complaining.

 

[Moraelintz]

My biggest complaint is that silence has been in the game for years and not needed rebalancing, and just got a ninja nerf when monks were already struggling for dps.

Especially on 6 mans and exp I would rather bring almost ANY other class because they bring nothing other than sub par dps. The only reason they are included in these is because I am friends with the player.

 

[huey]

the difference is I think they are correct or near correct while they don't. The onus is on the player wanting a change to show the the devs they are not correct and that takes more than general statements or complaining.

So is this saying that generally you think monks are fine?

 

[Kedrin]

Can we just all agree that it's a great thing that mithril weapons were nerfed? The level 1-20 game advancing too quickly is one of the few downfalls of the game.

 

[Zapple]

If you honestly think 17/18 +8 fire damage and a PBAE 400 damage proc that hits 6 targets with a relatively high proc percentage is fine as is, then I am not sure what to tell you. I am actually 85% sure it is 18/18 after mods, but I am not near the codebase to check. Of course, since you can get H2H from other places, this ratio can go even *higher*

I can dig up FWF parses from our forums which show it was in fact fine. Lleoc was the only monk that consistently was near the top and he was still doing similar dps with a same tier 2hander. All of our top dps were still consistently outdoing every single other monk that had those gloves before any of the nerfs started, except for Lleoc. Again, as was said, on paper these numbers may look big but they don't really translate into what you seem to think they do.

I guess posting about this is a lost cause though and I don't really have much of a dog in this race because my guild quit the game due to a lot of ~things~ so it doesn't really matter much to me whether you listen to the players at all as I haven't actually played in over a month now. Sure isn't good goings on for people who still do play though.

 

[burt6]

thank you I have been screaming this for months, whatever you think the ratio is and whatever you think it does it simply does not translate in game,

to use gloves you have to give up considerable stats

to use bw gloves as they were you have to deal with increased agro from offtanked adds, you can't use them on a significant amount of raid content because they break mez and mez is involved in almost all of turruj and a ton of content in sanctum they can't be used on. You can't use them for infested monstrosity. You can't use them on twins for various reasons I don't want to spoil. Their use was already extremely limited.

further, the only monk that parsed really well with them was Lleoc, and he also is a buff whore who always scams savagery and every other thing he can get in addition to being the most tomed, best equiped monk in the game and possibly character on the server.

monks are limited to melee only combat, none of our dmg abilities scale at all, the only places here we really really have problems is towards the higher end when we stop scaling and everyone else continues to.

I don't know what the ratios are exactly, I don't know what the server side numbers look like, the only thing I have are all of the parses that myself and everyone else from fwf put together and brought out for months both before and after the monk changes that show that
1) monks were awful before
2) monks were fixed for a while
3) monks are awful again

If you think that blazewind gloves were broken that is fine and I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that handing them a new class role ( moderate ae dmg) for the very first time on a very difficult to obtain item is a mistake then I think there is a strong argument for that.

However it was not just their ae dmg that was nerfed it was their single target dmg and there really is no reason for that because it wasn't even close to being unbalanced. When I first saw the bw gloves nerf I thought that it had to be a mistake and so did everyone else who plays at teir 13.

The silence nerf is silly, the BW gloves could have been made absolutely fine by just changing the proc. The only high end fight it even mattered on was hard mode blazewind which was still unbeatable.


and to be honest I really like the idea of going back and making all monk gloves have a small ae proc and giving them a sort of unique option role as an ae melee character.


half the classes in the game are balanced around their weapons and itemization I am not sure why an exception is being made for monks and all of the sudden it's not in the spirit of the game.

but there you have it, every high end monk who still cares plus a bunch of other dudes who very openly don't like me very much that are still saying it. Maybe it is possible that the general consensus of opinion is right on this one.

 

[Kjiel]

Beastlords are affected by these changes too, but only like one plays so who cares.

 

[Dimmi]

Zawrtard #1 Monk obviously

Skill mods are things you can get elsewhere if you're willing to make the sacrifice for them. How long did I run around the server screaming NEMESIS FOR LIFE before +Backstab augs came out? For that matter poor little Dimmi was trouncing things like Thaz 1/2 and Yclist/Spires (when they were still in "nobody's done this yet" mode) wearing one wrist from the PoTorment tower event and another from the collection quest in RSM.

tl;dr if DPS is your priority you have to itemize towards it, if you want to have your cake and eat it too...idc b/c I don't play this game anymore.

 

[null1fy]

I mean I guess it is incentive to wear fists again. It just sucks that my monk's DPS drops down to like 350 from 450 wearing T11 fists versus T9 gloves.

Monks; the most broken of classes.

 

[Dimmi]

I mean I guess it is incentive to wear fists again. It just sucks that my monk's DPS drops down to like 350 from 450 wearing T11 fists versus T9 gloves.

Monks; the most broken of classes.

At least you can solo an EW orc

 

[Dinadass]

Zawrtard #1 Monk obviously

Skill mods are things you can get elsewhere if you're willing to make the sacrifice for them. How long did I run around the server screaming NEMESIS FOR LIFE before +Backstab augs came out? For that matter poor little Dimmi was trouncing things like Thaz 1/2 and Yclist/Spires (when they were still in "nobody's done this yet" mode) wearing one wrist from the PoTorment tower event and another from the collection quest in RSM.

tl;dr if DPS is your priority you have to itemize towards it, if you want to have your cake and eat it too...idc b/c I don't play this game anymore.

But now you do have bs augs so it's a non issue, while monks don't have that option.

 

[Apros]

The biggest thing that doesn't make sense with all these changes. DPS OVERALL on all melee is being nerfed into oblivion, and mobs (Abyss / Spires / Turuj) Keep having their HP buffed (in some cases doubled) How is this seen as fair? You have broken the entire game at this point and have literally killed high end raiding for the most part.

4.3 taken as another example, when first created Bane damage (Humanoid) was available in various forms, and even though maybe the belts didn't exist, there was still stacking with items such as Dhuro / FG ear and others. The encounters HP was buffed, and certain phases were made more difficult and essentially, bringing a monk or a rogue in your group is a complete hindrance, no matter any way you stroke it. 3 Rangers and a bard, or any combinations of casters are far superior in any way to bringing a monk or a rogue, and this is not limited to this encounter. Rohk / Curator and any other encounter ON TEIR would benefit from this setup, and that just plain should not be the case. As well as what others are saying, you might as well can any extra rogues or monks and get more casters / rangers into your raid, because they have almost no utility and do far less DPS.

All in all, you should probably stop nerfing things unless you have a plan, because making encounters harder, and nerfing everyones DPS is not the answer.


EDIT:

After re-reading my post maybe this wasn't the best thread for it, but it this was just another ninjanerf that sparked me. I am sure I am not the only one getting frustrated by them.

 

[Raxton]

The biggest thing that doesn't make sense with all these changes. DPS OVERALL on all melee is being nerfed into oblivion, and mobs (Abyss / Spires / Turuj) Keep having their HP buffed (in some cases doubled) How is this seen as fair? You have broken the entire game at this point and have literally killed high end raiding for the most part.

4.3 taken as another example, when first created Bane damage (Humanoid) was available in various forms, and even though maybe the belts didn't exist, there was still stacking with items such as Dhuro / FG ear and others. The encounters HP was buffed, and certain phases were made more difficult and essentially, bringing a monk or a rogue in your group is a complete hindrance, no matter any way you stroke it. 3 Rangers and a bard, or any combinations of casters are far superior in any way to bringing a monk or a rogue, and this is not limited to this encounter. Rohk / Curator and any other encounter ON TEIR would benefit from this setup, and that just plain should not be the case. As well as what others are saying, you might as well can any extra rogues or monks and get more casters / rangers into your raid, because they have almost no utility and do far less DPS.

All in all, you should probably stop nerfing things unless you have a plan, because making encounters harder, and nerfing everyones DPS is not the answer.

This is a real bummer, some fights in Spires and Turruj CW cannot kill anymore, even if we force our new noobish members to play on tier toons, which of course they hate doing.

 

[booster]

You can argue that monks are broken till you are blue in the face, but a single weapon jumping that far from the weapon previous to it is not balanced, and not a way to fix a class.

nor is making their level 5 kick the pinnacle of dps but hey here we are.