Review for Necro's

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Since DPS is obviously not the issue here, can anyone come up with a list of the weaknesses or lack of useful things that necros do?


Some things they do are:

Solid DPS
Rez
FD/FD others
Mez

All of which I think are very valueable if applied correctly.

What they don't do is any of those things to the degree that other classes do, making them more of a complete utility class than a required class. They are a somewhat jack of all trades, and since other classes do all that stuff better, necros become less useful when all those other classes are combined, IE on raids.

Personally, as a necro, I think that we need some sort of defining ability that seperates us from other classes, Lich is somewhat of that but it only benefits our other abilities, all of which are outshined by other, more populous, classes. Before it was taken away, we had the mana pump, which was a useful and unique ability, but degenerated the class to nothing more than a fancy mana battery, which would definitally turn players away from starting new necros. Since I am not good at designing and balancing ideas on the fly, I have no real suggestion as to what could be implemented to give necros a use in raids, but I think that if we focus on that issue instead of DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS, we might make some better ground at balancing the necro.
 
They are a somewhat jack of all trades, and since other classes do all that stuff better, necros become less useful when all those other classes are combined, IE on raids.




You know its kind of funny when a class is SUCH A JACK OF ALL TRADES that you even hesitate to CALL THEM a jack of all trades. Just somewhat eh? :D
 
Nurgock said:
They are a somewhat jack of all trades, and since other classes do all that stuff better, necros become less useful when all those other classes are combined, IE on raids.




You know its kind of funny when a class is SUCH A JACK OF ALL TRADES that you even hesitate to CALL THEM a jack of all trades. Just somewhat eh? :D


If they were a jack of all trades, then they would be the ones doing the rezzing, mezzing, dps and FD'ing, but typically they don't do all that because the other classes do it better. They are somewhat of a jack of all trades becuause they can do all of it.
 
antihelei said:
Nurgock said:
They are a somewhat jack of all trades, and since other classes do all that stuff better, necros become less useful when all those other classes are combined, IE on raids.




You know its kind of funny when a class is SUCH A JACK OF ALL TRADES that you even hesitate to CALL THEM a jack of all trades. Just somewhat eh? :D


If they were a jack of all trades, then they would be the ones doing the rezzing, mezzing, dps and FD'ing, but typically they don't do all that because the other classes do it better. They are somewhat of a jack of all trades becuause they can do all of it.

Just like SK's and Pallies cant tank as well as a warrior, dps as well as rogues and monks, pull as well as monks, etc. etc.
Utility classes pay for their utility by being 'not as good' as classes who are specialised.
 
I agree with you on the mana pump thing, well it's not like a roleplay necromancer would spend his time pumping like a cleric would spend his healing.
But
Solid DPS
Rez
FD/FD others
Mez
Scuse me but to do solid DPS , a necro us utterly dependant on his spells. I just bought my spirit of Kaezul yesterday for 10K , Im very happy of it, was the first time I saw it sold by a player (never heard of it drop) but it's quite overpriced...and the guy was selling Endowed Death (the "FD others" possibility you suggested) and well I didn't feel like borrowing X more KPP for it , and in my guild no necros ever used it as far as I can remember. And I miss all other relic and useful high end spells (lvl 60 75% pet haste anyone ?)..
BTW instead of FD the cleric, the necro can FD and rez the fallen cleric. But indeed I don"t consider necros to have bad dots, it might need llooking at as Raherin said, but this is not the point.
Our rez is pretty good I admit, but a li' costly (thx to vendor trying to dump rubies them at 140pp, think it's Gottfried :p)

To backup Shirley, I was the necro who made tests with my pet, Elitra's and Vizan's.
Well my pet couldn't stand against the shaman's, well he didn't even proc during the fight ! though this class has a pet starting lvl 34 ! Just remove necros pet from lvl 1 to 30 that would be coherent...Now I still have to compare to an enchanter's pet cause this freaked me out a bit :eek:
Vizan"s child of night got Elitra's by a close margin , both unbuffed ; but then I heard these have an AA pet or something...and the folliowing fight Elitra's owned Vizan's of course.
Not even speaking we have no pet healing (oh yeah lvl 29, 216 dmg pad here, yeeey) . So I don't consider necros a real pet class. Why not having, I don't know 1000hp pet heal ? duration pet tap isnt really efficient until spirit of Kaezul , as I noticed yestersay while testing it .
A good idea I heard could be to make more interesting pet AAs , an AA much like Magicians , to summon an army of undead (don't know how it works for magis) with a high recast time. what do you think ?
Oh and remove Caress of Syviana to shamans cause I hate you all MUAHAHAH hum ok...
 
Dzillon said:
I agree with you on the mana pump thing, well it's not like a roleplay necromancer would spend his time pumping like a cleric would spend his healing.
But
Solid DPS
Rez
FD/FD others
Mez
Scuse me but to do solid DPS , a necro us utterly dependant on his spells. I just bought my spirit of Kaezul yesterday for 10K , Im very happy of it, was the first time I saw it sold by a player (never heard of it drop) but it's quite overpriced...and the guy was selling Endowed Death (the "FD others" possibility you suggested) and well I didn't feel like borrowing X more KPP for it , and in my guild no necros ever used it as far as I can remember. And I miss all other relic and useful high end spells (lvl 60 75% pet haste anyone ?)..
BTW instead of FD the cleric, the necro can FD and rez the fallen cleric. But indeed I don"t consider necros to have bad dots, it might need llooking at as Raherin said, but this is not the point.
Our rez is pretty good I admit, but a li' costly (thx to vendor trying to dump rubies them at 140pp, think it's Gottfried :p)

To backup Shirley, I was the necro who made tests with my pet, Elitra's and Vizan's.
Well my pet couldn't stand against the shaman's, well he didn't even proc during the fight ! though this class has a pet starting lvl 34 ! Just remove necros pet from lvl 1 to 30 that would be coherent...Now I still have to compare to an enchanter's pet cause this freaked me out a bit :eek:
Vizan"s child of night got Elitra's by a close margin , both unbuffed ; but then I heard these have an AA pet or something...and the folliowing fight Elitra's owned Vizan's of course.
Not even speaking we have no pet healing (oh yeah lvl 29, 216 dmg pad here, yeeey) . So I don't consider necros a real pet class. Why not having, I don't know 1000hp pet heal ? duration pet tap isnt really efficient until spirit of Kaezul , as I noticed yestersay while testing it .
A good idea I heard could be an AA much like Magicians , to summon an army of undead (don't know how it works for magis) with a high recast time. Oh and remove Caress of Syviana to shamans caus eI hate shamans MUAHAHAH hum ok...


uhhh... dont we have wake of the dead?

wake is an awesome AA, it summons the corpses around you into pets that last a short while, and if they are casters they will cast ETC

i agree on the pet heal thing, its pretty weak and the dot ones cant really keep up with mob dps

also, the DPS arguement is not valid just because you cant buy your spells, its unfortunate that you cant, but necros still can put out DPS even without their top of the line spells. its not the greatest, but its still dps
 
antihelei although Necromancers dont do all of those things all of the time during raids they certainly have the ability to and I know that some of them do perform these tasks often during raids, with the exception of mezzing. They are a jack of all trades period. Great utility class and yes Nuncio but the problem I am pointing to with my bad humor is that Necromancers are so great at being this ultra utility class that they get left behind with no real specialization in a very specialized world. Monks pull, Rogues DPS, Clerics heal and on and on.

EDIT: Thats kind of what you said Nuncio, so yea I agree with you. They pay for being able to do all of these things.
 
I'm not saying necros don't need something.
But it's obvious they aren't getting more DPS.
I started SoD by boxing a Shaman and SK. If I had the time, I'd still be playing them regularly. Their usefulness WAS limted in high end encounters. But I could duo tons of shit, and did XP groups really well. Leveled very quickly, and a blast to play.
Since I don't have much time anymore, I thought I'd try to duo some newb toons. I picked war and rog. Best at what they do, tanking and DPS. Absolute horror story to duo. In the end game, they would be highly desirable.
Any other time, they really aren't necessary at all, as the utility, fun and general ease of use and overall good abilities of the Shaman and SK make playing those other two classes a chore.
So yeah, there are trade offs for having the abilites that utility classes have.
Necros just need a utility that makes them more welcome, and stackable, in raid situations. (so do SKs :\, but we've already established, long ago, that they wont be getting anything.)
 
I actually dont think SKs NEED anything dude. They just require more investment at the high end to be more useful to raids (in the form of DPS, melee and HT, and Strike of the Void is money Ive been told).
 
Nurgock said:
I actually dont think SKs NEED anything dude. They just require more investment at the high end to be more useful to raids (in the form of DPS, melee and HT, and Strike of the Void is money Ive been told).
Sorry to bring up SK's. This thread is about necros. Can PM me your thoughts though. :)

To reiterate : Some form of utility to make necros more desirable, even stacked, in raid encounters, is needed (I think).
What, I have no freakin clue.
 
alright, please leave this thread up to the people who actually know something about the class, no offense to the rest of you

1. Yes we can stack dots, for nice damage. i can do almost 1.6k per tick (every 6 seconds) now that scitterpox was upgraded.

with Affliction 4 (Gorilla Hide Armband)...
Embedding Darkness does 81/tick for 24 ticks for 425 mana and takes 5.6 seconds to cast
Scitterpox does 391/tick for 9 ticks (pretty sure since the damage was doubled and duration was halved if i have read correctly) for 525 mana and takes 6.1 seconds to cast
Funeral Pyre does 445/tick for 6 ticks for 450 mana and takes 5.5 seconds to cast
Caress of Sivyana does 671/tick for 4 ticks for 505 mana and takes 3.75 seconds to cast

adding in a minimum 1.5 second delay between casting of spells, thats an extra 6 seconds.

so in total, it takes me 26.95 seconds to cast these 4 spells for a total of 1905 mana to do a total damage of 6352 for 4 ticks (when caress ends). two more ticks later 8186 when funeral pyre ends, three more ticks later 9602, fifteen ticks later when embedding darkness ends, for a grand total of 10817 damage unless my math is off of these hard numbers.

that is basically the 4 dots i stack on a mob i am solo'ing. please take note of this.

now, against a raid mob, i can easily cast with little fear Scitterpox (which seems to get resisted a lot), Funeral Pyre, and Caress of Sivyana, then FD until effect ends, and recast. problem is though the time required for all dots to run their course in a normal end boss fight. i will use the standard boss kill time of 5 minutes.

Nice_Fat_Boss_1 will act as the target

standard caster wait until 80% before casting, which would take about 1 min (100/20=5, so 20% would = 1/5 which would equal 1 minute)
alright, lets boogie, starting off with scitterpox for light caster damage, then FD to lower myself on the hate list. so, once scitterpox ends, mob should be at 60% (6 seconds per tick for 9 ticks = 54 + the 6.1 second cast time on scitterpox) dealing 3519 damage. not bad, i've only wasted 525 mana so far. hell lets get a little cocky and toss in a funeral pyre to help speed things up after scitterpox doing 2670 damage then FD'ing the rest of the minute waiting for spells to resolve. this bumps my mana usage up to 975 for 6189 damage.

yay mob is at 60%!!

alright, staying FD'd to furthur lower myself on the boss's agrolist, the mob hits 50% after 30 seconds. yes halfway through the fight, 2.5 minutes to go. time for the heavy dotting and to pop that mod rod (what is it? 250-500 mana? no idea on the actual mana regained)!!

hit it with scitterpox, funeral pyre, and caress of sivyana, then FD after caress lands to wait out the dot's resolve. after a minute, doing 8873 damage, im feeling really special and groovy =D but a little low on mana. 975 + 1480 = 2455 mana, over half my mana bar.

so now there is only 1.5 minutes left. lets see, i think i'll load my three dots again on Nice_Fat_Boss_1. this will do another 8873 damage for another 1480 mana. that means i've used a total of 3935 mana for a total of 23935 damage on the raid mob with little to no effort with FD under optimal conditions with no spell resists, fizzles, or Stuns. i only have enough mana for one more spell, but only 30 seconds until the mob dies. so lets hit it with Caress, doing 2684 in 24 seconds. there, 5 minutes have passed, the Boss mob is dead, and ive done a grand total of 27173 (forgot to add in my two initial 277 damage per Caress)

now i wont include in the pet, because even in optimal conditions, the pet is more than likely going to die but if you want to say the necro pet child of night is 30 DPS against the Boss, that is going to be 30x60x5=9000 damage, but generally this is damage that isnt seen.

but like i said, this is only under optimal conditions with no resists. adding a resist in easily starts to subtract at minimum 2.5k damage per resist as there are no partial resists for dots. dots are either hit or miss.

lets say the boss resists one scitterpox (27173-3519=23654) one funeral pyre (23654-2670=20984) and one caress of sivyana (20984-2684-277=18023)

so with three resists on the boss fight, drops the total damage to 18023. which i think is about the average damage a necro can put out on a boss mob.

2. our last undead charm spell sucks, yes it may have a low resist addition to it, but waiting 5 minutes to only have the mob for 48 seconds just isnt worth it at all to have up, as most of the mobs the necros are fighting while charming wont die before the spell duration ends, which means the necro now has two mobs that hit hard and all over him. with the 5 minute timer it means once the spell breaks, you cant recharm using the nice low resist and have to resort to losing both mobs, and forcing yourself to go FD (if you live)

3. an upgrade to Mind Wrack would be nice, as would (as i stated much earlier) an upgrade to Zavfeer's Theft of Vitae in replace of Spirit of Kaezul and Hand of Kaezul. changing two of our single target relics into group based relics, one for mana and the other for hp, would be awesome for utility.

4. necro's are given the spell Banshee Aura, which is a self only DS. grim aura which is a self only attack buff, and vampiric embrace, which is a weapon proc lifetap. i see these spells are pretty much useless in the endgame and would like to possibly revive them. given that our pets are supposed to be lower level undead that follow us, could it be possible that they can cast banshee aura, grim aura, and vampiric embrace on themselves or give necros a pet-only line of those spells? currently necro's only have two pet buffs, one is the pet haste/str line, the other is our lvl 16 Spirit Armor spell which gives AC. this will allow pets to deal slightly more damage tanking, have two lifetap procs, and hit slightly more with the increased attack. if we were given a targetable lifetap proc line that did a considerable amount of damage at the last spell, maybe 100 damage total per proc, it would help out necro's utility solo'ing and in groups giving melee's lifetap procs, which slows down total damage done to the tank and increases group dps slightly like the wizard blade line.

5. wake the dead isn't that good. the pet at most is only going to be a lvl 70 pet, hitting for not much more than the lvl 63 pet child of night. the only thing useful about the spell is scaring the shit out of everyone who just glances up to see the mob you just killed right in front of you walking around.

6. lastly, i wish the necro feed line wasnt taken out. most people dont see this as a nerf to "Raiding", because they dont understand the full effects of the raid situation with twitch, and all the damage prolonged by twitching is hidden or illusionary to them. what the necro adds to raids with twitch is the ability to keep the clerics going longer than they normally would go. i like to think of all the extra time added in by necro mana into cleric mana as sort of my dps. if i can use all my mana (about 4500 with mod rod) to twitch a cleric to say last him 4 more casts of cheal, and there are two other necros doing the same thing, that means the raid has now lasted a minute more. take the time to think of one minute of raid dps is, and taking the normal 5 minute raid, and allowing it to last 6 minutes. since necro's were the ones that helped give the raid the extra minute, i view all DPS in that minute to be the work of the three necro's. which essentially equals the same amount of damage, gives raids an extra cushion when going through long fights.
 
This is kind of an aside from the point of the thread, but why are you waiting until 80% to DoT? This isn't un-concussed relic nukes we're talking about, here... I can AA slow, regular 50% slow, and throw on Caress + Pox of Grawhatever, bing bang boom, without taking aggro from one Cmal3 gaunt click and one Ytraz or Wailfury proc. Not that it works out that way more than like 1 time in 10, given the resists =P And naturally this isn't such a good idea if the gaunts won't land or the weapon won't proc. But still...

Note that it's late and I may not be at my most coherent in the following:

Consider your numbers if you were dotting heavily the whole time from 80%, or starting with one DoT on and then ramping it up at 80%. In that extra minute at the start you could get Caress off x2, for another 2684 x2 (recasting halfway through the 4th tick). There's another 5k damage. Then throw on another caress during the 80% to 50%. 2684 more.

Don't forget that when he resists you can, you know, recast. That isn't damage that just disappears; it's delayed for casting time + recovery, so probably one tick or less.

You have a total of Sictterpox x3, Funeral Pyre x3, and Caress x2, I believe. 1575 + 1350 + 1010 mana before conservation. With MC4, that'd be 315 mana less, for a total of 3620 mana used. Now, I see from your wanelo that you have 4315 mana, and FT3. Throw in Arch Lich, MC3, and base mana regen and you'll get an extra, what, 42 mana/tick? Plus SB gives you 50 mana/tick, or 2500 mana over the course of the fight. Suppose you use two Lifebanes during that time to sustain Luch--that's another 2k damage at the cost of (760-.08 x 760) 700 mana. That leaves you with 2495 mana unused. Enough to cover roughly five resists. Add in a rod and you'd have roughly one more resist covered, just to be safe.

So that takes into account your 3 resists, one of the three additional caresses, and yet one more resist, PLUS recasts of the resisted ones. That gives you a total of 5 caresses, 3 scitterpoxes, and 3 pyres landing and running their full length in the fight with about a 30% resist rate. That gives you your original figure of 27173 + 8052 from 3 additional caresses, or 35225 damage over the course of the fight. Add in your pet's 9k damage, if the mob's AOE isn't too bad, and you dish out a solid 44k damage. Oh, almost forgot--the two taps! There's another 2228 damage, for 46453 damage.

It's no wizard DPS, but when you add it to the fact that in groups you have incredibly diverse abilities, it doesn't look all that bad, now does it? Compare it to my paladin's average of 19200 damage (64 DPS) when in offensive style and it doesn't look too shabby.

And that doesn't even touch on the damage reduction effects of the DoTs. Unless I'm mistaken all of those DoTs are stackable, so multiple necros could do the exact same thing.

I'm just completely making up numbers here, but let's suppose the 10% maximum damage reduction is geared roughly toward having 6 necros doing the same all-out DoTing as you. That would mean your DoTs would result in roughly a 1.5% damage reduction. Suppose you have a /pause 30 CH chain on the MT landing for an average of, let's say, 4k. For the sake of simplification let's say you get 1k of patches in there every 3 seconds, for 5k total damage healed per 3 seconds, or 10k per tick. That works out to 500k damage taken by your tank over 5 minutes (I'm not sure what parses look like on high end mobs, so this figure may need some revisions... this is just for perspective though). 1.5% of that works out to 7500 damage less taken by the MT. If it were something seriously dangerous to the tank and you were coming close to dying (say 5k average CH with 2k in pads), it would increase your damage reduction to 10500.

Once again, those numbers are completely invented. You might only be able to do a 1% reduction, or .75%... or you might be able to do 2% or more, for all I know. Obviously it'll depend on the HP of the mob. The point is, though, you're playing more than one part.
 
Bravo to Shadamir for his post, percise and showing clear figures to the staff. Btw, I gotta find this Affliction enhancement 4 item and scitterpox :p
But back to the point, it is clear with that we don't have a damage complex compared to other classes,but the suggestions of targetable lifetaps, more pet buffs (and/or heals as I suggested) , retuned hp and mana drains, and undead charms are all good ideas to explore I think. But sadly we can wave goodbye to the pumps from what I heard, or only hope we got one strong mana flow as is was suggested earlier.
 
during ruin raids (back when we still had alazif) it was pretty much standard for melee to run in once the MT had estabilished agro, let the other melee build up agro, then let the casters have at it. because if shit hits the fan, its better that the burst DPS classes dont get smacked on first so they can burn the mob down if they so need to.

so, pretty much we casters held until either the caster assist was called or 80%, whichever happened first. if you know anything about raiding, you've seen a wizard nuke to early, get summoned and quickly done away with. for some guilds, that wizard is an extreme loss of DPS. when rogues pop backstab to early and the mob turns around and again quickly does away with him, its for that same reason, MT didnt have enough agro estabilished.

Spiritual Bliss is only 8hp/mana per tick regen
and since i dont have Master of Death, (like most necro's), Arch Lich is 35mana per tick.

Sihala's Gift is 20hp per tick just to cover AL

so all in all, standing, with 3FT, and MC3, +8mana/tick + 35mana/tick = 49mana/tick regen. 49x10x5=2450 mana regen (no idea on sitting or standing regen stats)

question cause i dont know this part, what would this mana regen setup be for a 65 necro with maxed meditate, both sitting and standing?

now the breakdown of spellcasting during a raid, lets see here, 3 scitterpox, 3 funeral pyres, and 2 caresses. using the time i had posted, it comes to 6.1x3, 5.5x3, 3.75x2, and 1.5x7. this comes to 52.8 seconds. that means i will be medding for only 3/5ths the fight (i'd be pretty much FM from the start of the fight to 80%, which is 1/5th the fight) now if you want to add in FD time where i dont med then go ahead for however many seconds. this takes away from that 3/5ths of the fight med time. now lets add in 1 resist for each spell. 6.1+5.5+3.75+4.5 (3x1.5) = 19.85 seconds. lets combine that with lets say a 30 second FD time the entire fight. so now that makes it 102.65 seconds. now add in the 60 seconds of waiting to cast, to make it 162.65 out of 300 seconds. that leaves right under half of that time to med. also, i put down the 1.5 minimum between spell casting, in reality i think its 2.0, but during raids it can lag and bump it up a bit for some people. fizzles take some mana too, and resists just blow mana.

like i said, honestly a necro's raid damage lies between 18000 (which is 60 dps over the 5 minute fight) and 35000 (which is 116.67 dps over the 5 minute fight). now add in additional pet damage of about 30 DPS and a necro's raid damage falls between 60 to 90 using the 18000 damage total, and 146.67 using the 35000 damage total. this is the total again using the 5 minute battle time. in reality we dont start the battle until essentially 80% of the mobs health, so the totals should be divided by 240 instead of 300 (in terms of seconds using 60x4=240 seconds, and 60x5=300 seconds). this would raise the dps of us actually damaging the mob the whole time, which turns out to be between 75 and 145.83 DPS without adding in our pet damage.

im not arguing necro DPS at all, our dps is just fine and i have the numbers to prove it. all i am stating is a reference to those who have no idea of what they are talking about and an idea to others playing necros what their DPS and dot damage total is actually doing so we arn't ashamed by the "Amazing" wizard P-Blast
 
Bonk84 said:
so in total, it takes me 26.95 seconds to cast these 4 spells for a total of 1905 mana to do a total damage of 6352 for 4 ticks (when caress ends). two more ticks later 8186 when funeral pyre ends, three more ticks later 9602, fifteen ticks later when embedding darkness ends, for a grand total of 10817 damage unless my math is off of these hard numbers.
.
Sweet dood 10817 damage in 1905 mana, I do that in one nuke. so necros on a named mob can basically put out only 25000ish damage IF nothing is resisted which seems to never be the case. GG.

And Bonk84 sounds like BST dps with the lack of their useful abilities. If 70-140 DPS is acceptable to you thats more of a personal statement. I'm not gunna worry about DPS if they actually get some useful raid abilities implemented, cuz as it stands now all they are is for DPS and 70-140 isn't gunna cut it for a pure DPS class.
 
If thats so then you'll see a lot of raid mobs needing nerfs as well because people won't be able to kill it. Ex. Seductress, Tealshin < or w/e, mirrors, and various other prison mobs and PoAir ones. If you nerf them I'm fine with nerfing wizards.
 
I understand that but we're comparing 2 DPS only classes to each other they should be very comparable and their not. 70-140DPS vs 250-350DPS
 
Hostyle said:
I understand that but we're comparing 2 DPS only classes to each other they should be very comparable and their not. 70-140DPS vs 250-350DPS
<exasperated>
Shur, have you actually read this thread? Have you read a single post made in response to yours? How is the necromancer a "DPS only class"?!?!?!?!
</exasperated>
 
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