Review for Necro's

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Now, we're going to do the "DoTs are inefficent" comparision game.

Our subjects are A, level 60 necromancer with Affliction V, and B, level 60 wizard with Damage V and the basic critAAs.

A has Funeral Pyre of Malath.

B has Sunstrike.

The base damage of Funeral Pyre is 1980 for 450 mana, or 4.4 damage/mana.

The base damage of Sunstrike is 1615 for 450 mana, or 3.5 damage/mana.

Funeral Pyre gets +25% damage from Affliction V.

Sunstrike gets +26% damage from Damage V and Criticals.

In other words, Funeral Pyre is at 5.5/mana, and Sunstrike is at 4.4/mana.

Are those DoTs ever inefficent!

Or hey, we can compare relics.

Level 65 necro, Relic: Marlow's Cremation, Affliction VI.

Level 65 wizard, Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace, Damage VI, all crit AAs.

Tarhyl's is 4.4 efficency + 35% for crits and focus = 5.94 damage/mana.

Marlow's Cremation is 5.4 efficency + 30% for focus = 7.02 damage/mana.

Oh man, I don't know what to do about these DoTs, they're just so inefficent!
 
Siquros said:
but from Wiz's reply: "Give me parses and we can start talking changes."
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Grammatically speaking, Wiz's reply refers to dps, which is a seperate issue from raid functionality--I find it unlikely that necros would be given the primary raid function of 'dps', given how versitile the class is.
 
Ways to improve the class...

+ Pets: More HP, better mitigation and/or avoidance, definitely more dexterity as they miss all the time, lifetap proc upgrade
+ Increase Necromancer spell drop rates
+ Some sort of long cool-down mana pump or mana pump over time that stacks with others, a Necromancer can still give his own mana while not being the main function and not continuously clicking the button (this fits with the class as the Necromancer usually loses HP to give HP, loses HP to gain mana, etc).
+ A "mana dot" which takes the mob's mana and disperses it to your group.
+ Group feign perhaps.
+ Some sort of significant upgrade to the Scent line?
+ We never really get a new pet heal upgrade. Also, maybe some sort of Calliav spell line? (like a rune for the pet, it absorbs a certain # of strikes and then goes away.)
+ And by the way, our last undead charm is completely useless. It has an insane cool down time and is usually resisted.
 
Wiz said:
Now, we're going to do the "DoTs are inefficent" comparision game.

Our subjects are A, level 60 necromancer with Affliction V, and B, level 60 wizard with Damage V and the basic critAAs.

A has Funeral Pyre of Malath.

B has Sunstrike.

The base damage of Funeral Pyre is 1980 for 450 mana, or 4.4 damage/mana.

The base damage of Sunstrike is 1615 for 450 mana, or 3.5 damage/mana.

Funeral Pyre gets +25% damage from Affliction V.

Sunstrike gets +26% damage from Damage V and Criticals.

In other words, Funeral Pyre is at 5.5/mana, and Sunstrike is at 4.4/mana.

Are those DoTs ever inefficent!

Or hey, we can compare relics.

Level 65 necro, Relic: Marlow's Cremation, Affliction VI.

Level 65 wizard, Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace, Damage VI, all crit AAs.

Tarhyl's is 4.4 efficency + 35% for crits and focus = 5.94 damage/mana.

Marlow's Cremation is 5.4 efficency + 30% for focus = 7.02 damage/mana.

Oh man, I don't know what to do about these DoTs, they're just so inefficent!
Click to expand...

That's great, if a Wizard never does any of those insane primal/ultimate blasts they love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Wizard is casting only one Sunstrike and one Tarhyl per raid fight.
 
No actually, I included primal and ultimate blast in that calculation. I don't think you understand math.
 
Siquros said:
That's great, if a Wizard never does any of those insane primal/ultimate blasts they love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Wizard is casting only one Sunstrike and one Tarhyl per raid fight.
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5% chance for +100% damage is identical to a 100% chance for +5% damage. His comments are about efficiency, not overall numbers. You can cast more than one dot anyway, so its not all that one-sided.
 
I hate posting suggestions for the game because one specific issue is always picked at and the rest ignored.

DoTs are supposed to be more efficient (I don't think I even ever brought up their efficiency, if I did it was a mistake). The point of DoTs is to be more efficent because they take forever to fully work. But in that time, a Wizard could be casting for thousands of damage while a dot tick might be like 500. I'm not asking to outdamage Wizards, I'm trying to help in improve the class as an important aspect of them was just removed.

Wiz maybe you should being defensive and little more receptive to others helping to improve the game.
 
Siquros said:
That's great, if a Wizard never does any of those insane primal/ultimate blasts they love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Wizard is casting only one Sunstrike and one Tarhyl per raid fight.
Click to expand...

That's great, if a Necromancer never uses his pet that they should love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Necromancer is casting only one DoT per raid fight.

Edit: The point is, Necromancer DoT's have been, during raid parses, comparable to Wizard's, and that's before we even analyze Necro utility, and the new weakening effect (Which actually makes Necro's ridiculously desired in a raid situation, I'm sure.)
 
Siquros said:
I hate posting suggestions for the game because one specific issue is always picked at and the rest ignored.

DoTs are supposed to be more efficient (I don't think I even ever brought up their efficiency, if I did it was a mistake). The point of DoTs is to be more efficent because they take forever to fully work. But in that time, a Wizard could be casting for thousands of damage while a dot tick might be like 500. I'm not asking to outdamage Wizards, I'm trying to help in improve the class as an important aspect of them was just removed.

Wiz maybe you should being defensive and little more receptive to others helping to improve the game.
Click to expand...

Siquros maybe you should realize that I'm not picking apart other points because I don't see a problem with them? I was targeting one specific misconception that always comes up in these threads because obfuscation about how DoTs are so inefficent is counterproductive to the real debate.

Necromancers need some improvements, but DoT efficency is not among them. Not to mention that you one minute ago defended the "DoTs are inefficent" position which means you're now backpedalling and trying to blame your lack of understanding math on me.
 
Siquros said:
Ways to improve the class...

+ Pets: More HP, better mitigation and/or avoidance, definitely more dexterity as they miss all the time, lifetap proc upgrade
+ Increase Necromancer spell drop rates
+ Some sort of long cool-down mana pump or mana pump over time that stacks with others, a Necromancer can still give his own mana while not being the main function and not continuously clicking the button (this fits with the class as the Necromancer usually loses HP to give HP, loses HP to gain mana, etc).
+ A "mana dot" which takes the mob's mana and disperses it to your group.
+ Group feign perhaps.
+ Some sort of significant upgrade to the Scent line?
+ We never really get a new pet heal upgrade. Also, maybe some sort of Calliav spell line? (like a rune for the pet, it absorbs a certain # of strikes and then goes away.)
+ And by the way, our last undead charm is completely useless. It has an insane cool down time and is usually resisted.
Click to expand...

Let me answer your other suggestions though, since you want an answer to everything

+Pets

- No. Necromancers are not supposed to be the equals of magicians/beastlords in terms of pets.

+Drop rates

- You're actually suggesting to have necro spells drop more than any other class's spells? This is the worst idea in the history of ideas ever.

+Mana bump

- This is a definite possibility.

+ Mana dot

- An upgrade to mind wrack or making a real spell line out of it is something we're considering.

+ Group Feign

- No.

+ Scent

- No, there's too many resist debuffs at the moment, more would unbalance the raid game.

+ Pet heal/Pet rune

- Better pet heals or improvements to the spirit line is a possibility.

+ Last undead charm

- 1000 MR gets resisted often? I guess you transcend resist calculations somehow.
 
Liam said:
Siquros said:
That's great, if a Wizard never does any of those insane primal/ultimate blasts they love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Wizard is casting only one Sunstrike and one Tarhyl per raid fight.
Click to expand...

That's great, if a Necromancer never uses his pet that they should love to do. And oh yeah, I don't think a Necromancer is casting only one DoT per raid fight.

Edit: The point is, Necromancer DoT's have been, during raid parses, comparable to Wizard's, and that's before we even analyze Necro utility, and the new weakening effect (Which actually makes Necro's ridiculously desired in a raid situation, I'm sure.)
Click to expand...

If you are seriously comparing necromancer pets to the wizard's ability to ultimate and primal, there's a problem. Our pets do MINIMAL damage, and hardly even last to the raid fight. They die if there's any sort of riposte or AE.

And Wiz, I don't understand your personal attack on my capabilities of understanding math. I never believed that the efficiency[/u] of dots was the problem here, just the ability for necros to do damage, now that we can't keep cleric mana up to snuff.

I'm not saying that the new dot changes aren't significant because I'm just being skeptical. I definitely see stacking problems (which I know see a thread on the main SoD forum about) resulting from a necromancer not even benefitting the raid if the mob is already reaching the 10% cap without him. Also, is that 10% melee debuff enough to compensate for all the extra CHs a necromancer used to be able to supply?
 
Wiz said:
Siquros said:
Ways to improve the class...

+ Pets: More HP, better mitigation and/or avoidance, definitely more dexterity as they miss all the time, lifetap proc upgrade
+ Increase Necromancer spell drop rates
+ Some sort of long cool-down mana pump or mana pump over time that stacks with others, a Necromancer can still give his own mana while not being the main function and not continuously clicking the button (this fits with the class as the Necromancer usually loses HP to give HP, loses HP to gain mana, etc).
+ A "mana dot" which takes the mob's mana and disperses it to your group.
+ Group feign perhaps.
+ Some sort of significant upgrade to the Scent line?
+ We never really get a new pet heal upgrade. Also, maybe some sort of Calliav spell line? (like a rune for the pet, it absorbs a certain # of strikes and then goes away.)
+ And by the way, our last undead charm is completely useless. It has an insane cool down time and is usually resisted.
Click to expand...

Let me answer your other suggestions though, since you want an answer to everything

+Pets

- No. Necromancers are not supposed to be the equals of magicians/beastlords in terms of pets.

+Drop rates

- You're actually suggesting to have necro spells drop more than any other class's spells? This is the worst idea in the history of ideas ever.

+Mana bump

- This is a definite possibility.

+ Mana dot

- An upgrade to mind wrack or making a real spell line out of it is something we're considering.

+ Group Feign

- No.

+ Scent

- No, there's too many resist debuffs at the moment, more would unbalance the raid game.

+ Pet heal/Pet rune

- Better pet heals or improvements to the spirit line is a possibility.

+ Last undead charm

- 1000 MR gets resisted often? I guess you transcend resist calculations somehow.
Click to expand...
I've talked to a lot of classes and it definitely seems that Necromancer spells are much rarer. I've never seen a Magician not being able to immediately find his new pet. I never said I want Necromancer spells to drop more than others, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I just want them equal.

And maybe the undead charm got changed, but I used it a couple times and got resists in Freeport, and I could put a decent chunk into a book before it cooled off.
 
Actually, a necro pet does more DPS than the ability to ultimate and primal. Ultimates and primals are very small boosts in overall DPS because of their frequency rate.

This is my attack on your understanding of math. You are equalizing "big flashy numbers" to high DPS without actually analyzing them. I could give wizards a x100 SUPER BLAST that only kicks in every ten thousandth nuke, and the dps increase would be 1%.
 
I've talked to a lot of classes and it definitely seems that Necromancer spells are much rarer. I've never seen a Magician not being able to immediately find his new pet. I never said I want Necromancer spells to drop more than others, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I just want them equal.
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Oh, okay, you would of course know the drop rate of spells much better than I do.
 
I am going to one more time clarify precisely what my problem with most of this thread is. It's based on gut feelings. You see a wizard UB for 15k and assume that they must have insane DPS. You talk to a few people about spell drops and conclude that Necromancer spells arbitrarily drop less than other spells. You see your pet miss quite a lot of presume it does about 5 DPS.

All this is completely uninteresting to me, because I don't deal in gut feelings, I deal in hard facts. Hard facts is how you make and balance a game. If you say "I feel that I can only do 10% of a wizard's damage on a raid", I will not pay much attention to you. If you show six parses of your DoTs being outdamaged 10x by several wizards, I will look into it right away. If you think your spells are dropping less, I don't care. If you show statistics of several hundred spell drops and a disproportionate amount are necro spells outside the margin of error, I will instantly check over the loot tables and run tests. If you think your DoTs are inefficent, then you had better buck up some math to show that they are in fact inefficent, because what people experience is very rarely in line with actual reality.

The Necromancer class needs improvements, but those improvements have to be nested in hard facts, not in presumptions and guesses.
 
Wiz said:
Now, we're going to do the "DoTs are inefficent" comparision game.

(DD vs. DoT data)

Oh man, I don't know what to do about these DoTs, they're just so inefficent!
Click to expand...

You're comparing DDs, the wizard's most inefficient method of dealing damage, to some of the best necromancer dots in the game. The true secret to a wizard's supreme mana/damage ratio AND dps is AoEs, specifically rain AoE spells. They're basically powerful, short duration AoE dots that require the mob to stay in the rain radius. (I'm sure you know that though.)


A lvl 56 wizard spell, Tears of Tarhyl: 408 mana for 3 waves of 645dmg on a maximum of 3 targets.

On just a single target, that's a 4.74 mana/dmg ratio, with no Dmg Increment or Energy/Defense specialization. On three targes, hoo boy, that's a 14.22 ratio.With Energy/Defense specialization and Damage Inc V, my wizard's waves hit for 856, so he has a single target efficiency of 6.29. In a group where 3 or more mobs are pulled at a time, my wizard has an 18.88 mana efficiency, which he can further pad by using 5 mana nukes while the rain waves cycle, and I'm not even counting the common wave crits.

This is excellent. It makes me love playing a wizard, since a wizard with a good understanding of aggro and crowd control can achieve amazing effectiveness in a smart group.

Now, back to the necromancer.

Marlow's Cremation is 5.4 efficency + 30% for focus = 7.02 damage/mana.
Click to expand...

7? On a single target? Using an extremely rare Relic spell that I can only use at lvl 65? C'mon now.

I'm glad you agree that necros need tweaking of some sort, so please go back and read my and Siquros' suggestions. I'm sure you can think of something good.
 
Rains can only hit two targets, and AEs are supposed to be more efficent than DDs, but thanks for trying.

Also, including energy/def is pointless since it affects DoTs and DDs equally.

I'll take a gander to see if rains are overpowered, though, it's about time they got a review.
 
Im not going to say DoTs are not mana efficient because they are.

Using your DoTs is often times not efficient. Alot of mobs in XP groups die before DoTs can be truely effective. Sometimes the DoTs wear off when Raid mobs are low HP like 4-5% thusly not allowing you to truely take advantage of DoT efficiency.

Im not saying that Necros need to have thier DoTs removed and instead replaced with Nukes, however if you look at the TIME it takes for a DoT to be effective and the time it takes for a wizard to do thier damage i would say that Necros have a valid complaint in the damage department. I understand that over time they will achieve the same DPS but perhaps adding a few situational spells would help bring more necros into the player base and keep them playing.

Here are my suggestions take them with a grain of salt and I do understand that disease DoTs have been reworked.


Long Lasting DoTs that increase damage per tick and last for 5 mins or so.
Poison Based DD spell rain type single target spell.
Group mana/Single target mana pump spell, which doesnt need to be spam cast.
A spell that alters an NPC into undead for a period of time, allowing for it to be bane damaged by those with undead bane. Also this spell would allow the necro to charm the NPC for as long as it was in effect.
 
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