Review for Necro's
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zodium said:
Donno If I can argue this with Zodium cuz he made it clear to me that what he thinks is law even if its hypocritical or not. Not that I'm saying Zodium is so ( I love him =D ). But he made it clear to me when we chatted about casino spam that what says is spam, is spam hyprocritical or not. But to say wizards are DPS masters only is cool, I understand it. Warriors are tanks only, rogue sustained dps, and every class has a place. This is the problem though necromancers don't. Their pretty lost. No great DPS or raid improvements, no sufficant anything. A shaman can out DoT and sustain more dps then they can. The only thing a necro has going for them is their mana for hp spell. If you really think about it you'll see how shamans are far better for dps/raid improvements then necros.
Just curious Wiz did you caculate Pet mimic damage? Maybe we can make a Necro pet that mimics DoTs?! I think you also where unlucky with those caculations. I can get an average of 350ish DPS and I've had 1500 DPS on a raid trash mob in Prison before, never seen a necro pet make up that damage. :roll: ... But really a necro mimic pet shouldn't be that far out of the question. Everyone seems to hate them because they're paper tanks anyways, why not just go the whole way and make them invunerable and no melee damage just a mimic of some sortisherish!? Its not that ridiculous =(?
Nuncio said:
Nuncio i dunno if you misunderstood what i said or I'm misunderstanding what you said but... How I comprehend what you said is that no overwriting is bad because it can cause a mob to have 60+ DoTs on it. I don't understand why this is bad. Wouldn't it be the same as players casting 60+ DDs? In addition I think that you think I'm allowing one necro to cast all of its DoTs and not overlap... I'm not saying that. I'm saying everything is the same for DoTs is it is currently except that other players can cast the same DoTs without overwriting. This would allow raids to have more than one DoTer in a group without people saying "Hey we don't need another DoTer since we have one already and their spells would just overlap each other"
I'm not really seeing the problem here. It sounds like there's no objection to Wiz's point that DoTs are very mana-efficient for single-target spells. Necros are being compared to wizards for DPS. If they're sub-par, who really gives a crap? Wizards can't FD, don't have standard pets, can't lich, can't mez, etc. Try comparing a necro to a bard for DPS. What kind of comparison will you get there? Both are most definitely utility classes with a wide variety of abilities.
Also, shamans out-DPSing necros? How do you figure? Even with the Relic disease DoT, Shamans can total 1048 damage per tick with two stacked DoTs (pre-mod). Necros get what? Caress (498/tick) + Spirit of Kaezul (160/tick) + MC (420/tick) + Hand of Kaezul (160/tick) + ??? I imagine they have others that will stack with those, but that already outdamages the Shaman DoTs, and all of the others have a longer duration than Caress. This isn't counting pets, of course--an area in which necros dominate shamans.
Each class has its own bailiwick. Necros own with DoTs, and DoTs used well are freaking awesome. If your mobs are dying in just a couple of ticks, your group can take much harder mobs. Why not move to a zone with tougher, higher level mobs which give more xp and let you use your DoTs more effectively? The vast, vast majority of groups don't have the DPS to make DoTs worthless if you're in a zone that's actually mildly challenging.
Also, shamans out-DPSing necros? How do you figure? Even with the Relic disease DoT, Shamans can total 1048 damage per tick with two stacked DoTs (pre-mod). Necros get what? Caress (498/tick) + Spirit of Kaezul (160/tick) + MC (420/tick) + Hand of Kaezul (160/tick) + ??? I imagine they have others that will stack with those, but that already outdamages the Shaman DoTs, and all of the others have a longer duration than Caress. This isn't counting pets, of course--an area in which necros dominate shamans.
Each class has its own bailiwick. Necros own with DoTs, and DoTs used well are freaking awesome. If your mobs are dying in just a couple of ticks, your group can take much harder mobs. Why not move to a zone with tougher, higher level mobs which give more xp and let you use your DoTs more effectively? The vast, vast majority of groups don't have the DPS to make DoTs worthless if you're in a zone that's actually mildly challenging.
Dzillon
Dalayan Master
I agree with Hasrett about comparing necros to wizzies - it's just not the point. I'm glad I can escape death with FD pretty much all the time now , that I can mez and debuff... That's just fine. But I'd like to see a fight beween non-relic shaman and necro pets, I'm not so sure of the issue of such a fight.
To back up Siquros a bit : even if we're not supposed to have an uber pet, I'm not sure he really isn't that useful. My pet can't tank an archpaw decently (around level 45, don't remember exactly) , his lifetap ability (45dmg daytime) is not enough to make him tank at all compared to the magi's and bst.
Hence we absolutely need relic pets and dots ; and sorry to say that but I never found any of those (I missed Child of night once on a vendor due to insufficient funds) , so I agree with Siquros it is surprisingly hard to find them.
I'm not saying they are harder to find than other classes but just that we rely much more on them. It' may be pretty common to find Howl of tha banshee, wraithbond and boundless fright, but hell I never SAW lvl 60 Gift of unlife anywhere for example, our best pet haste.
It is prolly bad luck since I trust Wiz made the loot table equal between classes, But it's just too many factors that strike the majority of necros out there making us a little down for the moment
BTW I wanted to beg for another plague dot around lvl 55 60 to help us get a real DoT suite , lvl 52 one is such bad crap...but I don't hope much about it.
To back up Siquros a bit : even if we're not supposed to have an uber pet, I'm not sure he really isn't that useful. My pet can't tank an archpaw decently (around level 45, don't remember exactly) , his lifetap ability (45dmg daytime) is not enough to make him tank at all compared to the magi's and bst.
Hence we absolutely need relic pets and dots ; and sorry to say that but I never found any of those (I missed Child of night once on a vendor due to insufficient funds) , so I agree with Siquros it is surprisingly hard to find them.
I'm not saying they are harder to find than other classes but just that we rely much more on them. It' may be pretty common to find Howl of tha banshee, wraithbond and boundless fright, but hell I never SAW lvl 60 Gift of unlife anywhere for example, our best pet haste.
It is prolly bad luck since I trust Wiz made the loot table equal between classes, But it's just too many factors that strike the majority of necros out there making us a little down for the moment
BTW I wanted to beg for another plague dot around lvl 55 60 to help us get a real DoT suite , lvl 52 one is such bad crap...but I don't hope much about it.
moghedancarns
Dalayan Beginner
At one point in live, I played a mage.
I was so miffed when a 51 necro pet raped my 57 earth pet, with 60% life remaining. I quit that night and vowed to never play a mage again. Of course, mod rods had just been changed, so a mage quitting in anger was not an uncommon thing of the time. Few people were sorry to see a mage go. I know the upper level raiding guild of my server wholesale kicked all dozen or so mages from its ranks.
Any necros get their walking papers after the twitch removal?
Anyway, I am happy with DoTs. I knew what DoTs were when I signed on, the up sides and the down. They cannot be compared to DDs. I do not like when people dimiss stacking of DoTs as a sin... what exactly is the difference is the stacking of DoTs and casting of Multiple DDs?
Fear suprised me, as I did not realize it was disabled just about everywhere. I have learned to cope and adopt a more druid like fighting behavior.
My only request is in the pets. Some call them paper tanks, but they do ok. If they had half the buffs or even an occasional heal from someone other than me, I am fairly certain they would be better than half the "tanks" I have grouped with.
I have tried /pet notaunt and the like, but the pet still taunts. Very aggrevating at times. Also, his hit rate is aweful. Is there any way to improve this that I am overlooking, or can be used as a replacement for the twitch line?
I was so miffed when a 51 necro pet raped my 57 earth pet, with 60% life remaining. I quit that night and vowed to never play a mage again. Of course, mod rods had just been changed, so a mage quitting in anger was not an uncommon thing of the time. Few people were sorry to see a mage go. I know the upper level raiding guild of my server wholesale kicked all dozen or so mages from its ranks.
Any necros get their walking papers after the twitch removal?
Anyway, I am happy with DoTs. I knew what DoTs were when I signed on, the up sides and the down. They cannot be compared to DDs. I do not like when people dimiss stacking of DoTs as a sin... what exactly is the difference is the stacking of DoTs and casting of Multiple DDs?
Fear suprised me, as I did not realize it was disabled just about everywhere. I have learned to cope and adopt a more druid like fighting behavior.
My only request is in the pets. Some call them paper tanks, but they do ok. If they had half the buffs or even an occasional heal from someone other than me, I am fairly certain they would be better than half the "tanks" I have grouped with.
I have tried /pet notaunt and the like, but the pet still taunts. Very aggrevating at times. Also, his hit rate is aweful. Is there any way to improve this that I am overlooking, or can be used as a replacement for the twitch line?
moghedancarns said:
Well the difference is DD hits for 3200, sometimes 6400 also can hit for 12800 and rarely 25600 in one cast. Also spells can be mimic'd for exact damage -besides crits- for no mana by pets. Mostly wizards get around 350ish dps, necromancers probably if they tried hard enough could get around half of that.
Crayak said:
Again, a DoT is an effect. You cannot have 60 effects on a mob or person, period. The game mechanics most likely will not allow for that.
On top of that, if you let every players DoT land and stick and stack, you are looking at stupidly high sustained DPS on the mob.
3 necros, 2 shammies, a couple druids and an SK would be doing ungodly amounts of damage per tick.
moghedancarns
Dalayan Beginner
What if that was 3 wizards, 2 mages, some druids, and a cleric all casting DD? Are you implying the damage would be less, or that the mob would live LONGER?
Yes, the effect limitation is a problem that we must deal with, because the engine was so poorly designed so long ago, not because doing so would be game breaking.
Yes, the effect limitation is a problem that we must deal with, because the engine was so poorly designed so long ago, not because doing so would be game breaking.
I'm implying that since necros, shaman and SK's have quite a bit more utility, letting them stack DoTs and doing near-dps class DPS, as well as having them being able to do all those other nifty things they can, may make bringing other classes not a good idea.moghedancarns said:
ChairmanMauzer
Dalayan Beginner
Would adding Dot crits be an option? Something equivalent of the levels of nuke crits would be fair I'd think, but I'd settle with anything. So wizards are nuke masters and necros dot masters, why not mirror or at least have similar critical capacities to match?
An aa I've tossed arround in my head to compliment this akin to wizards Manaburn: an activated AA that allows all ticks of dots to crit for specified period of time (18 seconds perhaps for a total of 3 dot ticks.) This would be easy to balence by adjusting the length of effect and its refresh time. It plays into the strengths of necros and would allow us a sort of brief burst capacity while still dotting. I'm thinking of this as more of a raid tool but it'd be nice for solo and group when up as well.
An aa I've tossed arround in my head to compliment this akin to wizards Manaburn: an activated AA that allows all ticks of dots to crit for specified period of time (18 seconds perhaps for a total of 3 dot ticks.) This would be easy to balence by adjusting the length of effect and its refresh time. It plays into the strengths of necros and would allow us a sort of brief burst capacity while still dotting. I'm thinking of this as more of a raid tool but it'd be nice for solo and group when up as well.
I guess I'm just not seeing something here...Why can't 3 Necros with all the same DoT's have them stack, albeit the debuffs(those shouldn't stack)? If you are raiding, 3 of every class is allowed, shouldn't every class be allowed to use the same spells?...because to me, if you say that 3 Necros cannot cast the same non-debuff DoT's, then you should also say the 3 DD casters cannot cast the same DD spells. It all works out the same damage-wise, just the DD's will work much faster. So sounds to me like DD's are over-powered, not DoTs. The answer to this is that DoTs are an effect, yes, but they are an effect that has just as much chance of being resisted as a DD, they should be able to stack. This could be a big reason tons of Wizards are wanted in guilds for raids, but only a few Necros, why have more than one on a raid if all of them can't use all their stuff??
And as for stacking of different classes, no class should have the exact same DoT, except the half-breeds that have lesser potency DoTs from thier assigned pure class and this is of course because they have the melee ability that the pure class lacks. The Shaman/Necro DoT, Carress of Sivyana makes more sense for a Necro to have and should be replaced with some tribal-like or disease-based DoT for the Shaman. So, if that gets changed, no class has the same DoT and all should stack?? Therefore, a Necro, Shaman, and Druid can all cast their DoTs and they would all stick??(Minus the debuff type, the most potent debuff should be the one to overwrite any other.)
Then there are the folks that say, yeah but Necros have all those nifty utilities, ummm, I consider Wizard/Druid ports and evacs pretty nifty utilities myself lol. When a Necro FD's or target FD's, that saves the Necro and/or the target. When a Wizard/Druid evac, way more folks are saved. Necros have a rez, so do Druids and Shamans and theirs doesn't cost an expensive gem to cast, of course at the expense of a lesser rez, so that evens it out. And Shamans have their buffs and slows which again are awesome utilities. Plus their ability to chew their arm off for mana, not as great as a Necro lich, true, but still a good ability. Not to mention they have the ability to heal themselves from this out of combat, where Necros can't until they engage again, evening this out.
And if you argue because of the new damage reduction from DoTs, doesn't that cap at 10% regardless??
Then you can also argue that Necros have pets, ummm, my lvl 60 Necro pet was nearly pwn'd by 2 lvl 30ish Air Pets in SBL until I stepped in with my group heal DoT. Not to mention the lack of DPS the Necro pet mitigates. Plus, Shamans and Druids also have pets, albeit just as crappy, and wizards have their familiars, so again, Necro having pets won't make them over-powered if their fellow Necros non-debuff DoTs stack??
I'm just tossing the thoughts out that occur to me, feel free to comment or flame as you see fit. These thoughts just seemed like common sense to me. Be it lack of knowledge or whatever, I just cannot see the reason why DoTs from the same class cannot stack unless the game mechanics just won't allow for that to happen, which I would be clueless to know.
And as for stacking of different classes, no class should have the exact same DoT, except the half-breeds that have lesser potency DoTs from thier assigned pure class and this is of course because they have the melee ability that the pure class lacks. The Shaman/Necro DoT, Carress of Sivyana makes more sense for a Necro to have and should be replaced with some tribal-like or disease-based DoT for the Shaman. So, if that gets changed, no class has the same DoT and all should stack?? Therefore, a Necro, Shaman, and Druid can all cast their DoTs and they would all stick??(Minus the debuff type, the most potent debuff should be the one to overwrite any other.)
Then there are the folks that say, yeah but Necros have all those nifty utilities, ummm, I consider Wizard/Druid ports and evacs pretty nifty utilities myself lol. When a Necro FD's or target FD's, that saves the Necro and/or the target. When a Wizard/Druid evac, way more folks are saved. Necros have a rez, so do Druids and Shamans and theirs doesn't cost an expensive gem to cast, of course at the expense of a lesser rez, so that evens it out. And Shamans have their buffs and slows which again are awesome utilities. Plus their ability to chew their arm off for mana, not as great as a Necro lich, true, but still a good ability. Not to mention they have the ability to heal themselves from this out of combat, where Necros can't until they engage again, evening this out.
And if you argue because of the new damage reduction from DoTs, doesn't that cap at 10% regardless??
Then you can also argue that Necros have pets, ummm, my lvl 60 Necro pet was nearly pwn'd by 2 lvl 30ish Air Pets in SBL until I stepped in with my group heal DoT. Not to mention the lack of DPS the Necro pet mitigates. Plus, Shamans and Druids also have pets, albeit just as crappy, and wizards have their familiars, so again, Necro having pets won't make them over-powered if their fellow Necros non-debuff DoTs stack??
I'm just tossing the thoughts out that occur to me, feel free to comment or flame as you see fit. These thoughts just seemed like common sense to me. Be it lack of knowledge or whatever, I just cannot see the reason why DoTs from the same class cannot stack unless the game mechanics just won't allow for that to happen, which I would be clueless to know.
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