Rebalancing Racial Bonuses

[Tempus]

I have faith that you can start reading the posts before mashing the quote and reply buttons Yacub. Don't prove me wrong! :monocle:

And yet you still proved me wrong. syduck:

 

[Ikugoth]

Erudites and gnomes should make the best classes because they are the best races.

But really, Mythryn and Yacub brought good suggestions to the table; and it seems the major problem is that erudites and gnomes possess the only two racial abilities who's usefulness scales up which their progression, rather than down into obscurity.

Because gnomes / erudites excel at roughly a 2% and 1% margin respectively, they could suffer parallel penalties to their faction gains for the reclusive or self-concerned nature they seem to portray in SoD. (which as Yacub points out probably lends itself to their relative knack)

Warrant for upgrades for other races on the basis of erudites / gnomes having such a small bonus seems like a bad way to rectify the issue, and maybe, possibly, like a round-a-bout way to get a race (wood elf) who's racial abilities aside from forage, become less and less useful as that (wood elf) progesses.

 

[cornelweezy]

And yet you still proved me wrong. syduck:

The only posts I'm not bothering to read are yours.

 

[iaeolan]

the major problem is that erudites and gnomes possess the only two racial abilities who's usefulness scales up which their progression, rather than down into obscurity.

Agree fully

a race (wood elf) who's racial abilities aside from forage, become less and less useful as that (wood elf) progesses.

Not to nit-pick, but the few gold it costs for food/water outweigh the lost bag space and loss of a hotkey once you are at any sort of higher level. Forage is only greatly useful when it is at higher levels and you can dependably forage what you need.

 

[Brimztone]

If you take a gnome and a dark elf wizard, give them both max tomes and both DI7, both 6% ice focus, both max specializations, the gnome will moon comet for more.

Base damage:
Archaic: Moon Comet - 2575

Full tomes:
3286.42

DI7 for a gnome: 23.1%
DI7 for the dark elf: 21%
Ice focus for the gnome: 6.6%
Ice focus for the dark elf: 6%

Gnome:4743.85 - 9487.7 Crit - 18975.4 Ultimate - 37950.8 Primal
Dark Elf: 4636.67 - 9273.34 Crit - 18546.68 Ultimate - 37093.36 Primal

No Cunning, No Fulmination, No Focused Channeling, No Tmap rings.

There were some good suggestions, but please. Don't continue the pattern of nerfing things and leaving the underpowered things along. Please.

Gnomes are erudites are the most ridiculed, least played races on SoD. Iksars are just as amazing. Wheres the cry to nerf them?

Hello my name is logic. I am currently working to keep the races that should be the best casters the best casters. Gnomes get TERRIBLE starting stats and we get a cool bonus. Iksars get terrible starting stamina, but get a cool bonus. Erudites get amazing starting stats for casters and get a cool bonus.

 

[Spiritplx]

As already stated in this thread, a 2%+ increase to damage alone is not easy to come by on SoD. Couple that fact that for gnomes, your mana con is better, your pet foci are better, your range increment is better, your elemental foci are better, your casting speed increment is better, your reagent con is better, your duration inc is better, etc etc etc.

For erudites, their mitigation is better, their mana con is better, their resists are better, their spell damage is better, their melee damage is better, their spells get resisted less.

All of these are marginal, sure, but when combined to affect all of the things listed...it becomes overpowered in my view.

As for iksars, I already mentioned they were really good, if there was a rebalancing, I do not think they would need much if anything at all added.

Also, I think it was Ponden who stated it, but if these bonuses are so insignificant, then a slight reduction (WORST CASE SCENARIO) won't be problematic. Your 110 damage increase becomes an 80 damage increase (speculation).

If the gnomes and erudites would quit crying about a nerf, and offer suggestions, I honestly think it would prevent any such nerf. The whining makes it sound like you all knew it was overpowered and are trying to keep it that way.

People have already thrown out many great ideas. The more we throw out, the more the devs can either mimic, or get ideas of their own from.

I keep saying it every post, but I want to get the point across that I think ALL races should have flavor and power bonuses.

 

[vistachiri]

There are only a few racial bonuses that I think need looked at, but these bonuses are indeed (in my opinion, and many others) overpowered. The two races I think should definitely be looked at are gnome and erudite.

Gnomes get a 10% bonus to all worn haste and all worn foci which is a HUGE benefit. Sure gnomes get a -25% to fear and mez, but really, this is not a factor many of the times. Either you have Pot4 and resist it, or the spell is unresistable (or the fact that mobs that fear or mez are super rare in SoD).

Erudites get a 5% straight bonus to all specializations. This means that erudites have better avoidance, spell damage, melee damage, etc then any other race. They also have a tiny exp. bonus which is more than negligible, but they have zero penalties.

Honestly, from a power standpoint, these races are just better than the others. The only other race that comes close is iksar (small ac bonus and small innate regen bonus). The problem I have with these abilities is that people should be picking races because that's what they want to play instead of what will be the "best". Some classes cannot even take advantage of these overpowered races, making the imbalance even worse.

Either the racial bonuses should be toned down a bit, or other races should get a little something else to boost their powerlevels with gnomes and erudites.

(Hey neat, this is another one of those balancing threads...if you are going to whine and bitch that I am nerfing your race, then you better have valid reasons for why your race should be overpowered, or stay out of this thread)

Felyn I love you for saying what I think better than I bitch about it.

If these races ARE so much better, why don't you see more of them in the high end? Out of the classes that would get the most benefit from these Racials (Warrior, Wizard and Cleric) there's only one Gnome in the top 5 cleric list, one Gnome in the top 5 warrior list, and one Erudite in the top 5 wizard list.

Why? Because for 95% of the game (the part thats not raiding) stats are better than bonuses. But honestly, it seems to me people are still playing what they want to play, not what they need to play to be the best.

More often than not I would wager it is because it is a first character and some bonuses sound a heck of alot better than they actually are. For instance charm immunity sounds awesome. But then you realize that unresistable spells aren't affected by immunities later, then you also find out that there are like 4 situations in the game where you will actually benefit from your bonus. If I could change my race? There is no chance in hell I wouldn't change it to gnome.

I like some of the changes jose proposed. Others not so much. But its definitely a good start.

Off the top of my head as well. How about instead of making races the be all end all for power, we instead take one class that fits in best with each race, and attempt to tailor it so every race has a somewhat favored class. Cuwi gave me the idea with the froglok/Malath mention.

For example. Tailor Frogloks to be the best paladins, humans to be a good all around choice, etc, etc.

 

[Tempus]

For erudites, their mitigation is better, their mana con is better, their resists are better, their spell damage is better, their melee damage is better, their spells get resisted less.


All of these are marginal, sure, but when combined to affect all of the things listed...it becomes overpowered in my view.

They also get a skill and exp boost.

If the gnomes and erudites would quit crying about a nerf, and offer suggestions, I honestly think it would prevent any such nerf. The whining makes it sound like you all knew it was overpowered and are trying to keep it that way.

People have already thrown out many great ideas. The more we throw out, the more the devs can either mimic, or get ideas of their own from.

I keep saying it every post, but I want to get the point across that I think ALL races should have flavor and power bonuses.

The only posts I'm not bothering to read are yours.

Obviously you are totally ignoring and/or skimming Felyn's posts as well, and just continuing to knee jerk and not actually participate in the discussion. Either start making suggestions or stop trolling this thread.

 

[iaeolan]

Off the top of my head as well. How about instead of making races the be all end all for power, we instead take one class that fits in best with each race, and attempt to tailor it so every race has a somewhat favored class. Cuwi gave me the idea with the froglok/Malath mention.

For example. Tailor Frogloks to be the best paladins, humans to be a good all around choice, etc, etc.

In a nutshell this is a very bad idea.

 

[vistachiri]

In a nutshell this is a very bad idea.

Explain why. As opposed to the current system where we have 3 races that are better at pretty much everything.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

Explain why its a bad idea to pigeonhole race into specific classes?

Really?

 

[vistachiri]

Explain why its a bad idea to pigeonhole race into specific classes?

Really?

Not pigeonhole. Slightly better at certain things in regards to other races. I'm not talking ZOMGZ you're making a paladin, must make a froglok kind of thing. I don't particularly think the racial bonuses should be all that powerful in the first place. Which is essentially the point of the whole thread really. Also why it is any worse than the system that exists at the moment, where there are 3 races that dominate all the other's in terms of the power of their bonuses.

 

[Tempus]

Not pigeonhole. Slightly better at certain things in regards to other races. I'm not talking ZOMGZ you're making a paladin, must make a froglok kind of thing. I don't particularly think the racial bonuses should be all that powerful in the first place. Which is essentially the point of the whole thread really. Also why it is any worse than the system that exists at the moment, where there are 3 races that dominate all the other's in terms of the power of their bonuses.

I agree with this. Not OMG you have to to be a frog if you want to play a paladin, but rather you might be a 1% better paladin, and a 1% worse wizard if you play a frog. etc etc

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

The point of this thread is to fix the egregious unbalance of the three races that dominate certain aspects throughout the game. Saying that your suggestion isnt any worse isnt a valid argument. I dont see how its better, or even different than the current situation, other than a shift in power.

 

[vistachiri]

The point of this thread is to fix the egregious unbalance of the three races that dominate certain aspects throughout the game. Saying that your suggestion isnt any worse isnt a valid argument. I dont see how its better, or even different than the current situation, other than a shift in power.

Oh yeah, definitely. But a shift in power is kind of the focus. Well more of a redistribution.

So say something like this. I'm just going off frogloks because it's fresher in my mind. Frogloks end up being better Pally healing tanks due to their powerful connection with malath, whereas dwarf pally's would end up being better pally tanking tanks due to being sturdy or something. Then gnome pally's end up being better at blasting undead pally tanks. It's going to take a hell of alot of thought though, in order to not make something that yet again dominates everything.

 

[Ponden]

Id prefer to see a system of comparability.

For example
-- small race warriors gain a small avoidance style in the early game -- but it becomes trivial later on.
-- larger race warriors gain better statistics in the early game, but it becomes trivial later on. --

That is balanced.

verses ... the current system of best mage/wizard at 98% of the game = gnome.

......

In the endgame Erudite SK is comparable to Iksar SK. Troll, Human, Gnome, Ogre and Darkelf shadowknights are at a lesser footing for 90%? of all situations. (Its minor, but it exists imo.)

 

[Brimztone]

In regard to Aisling:

Gnomes through their extensive knowledge of how things are constructed and how to release their power have an increased ability to notice an item's abilites and gain from them. Because their focus is on physical items, their minds are very one track and are easily controlled.

Erudites through their extensive knowledge of everything arcane and natural have a more honed mind, giving them a more specialized mind. Because they sit inside and study all day they are more prone to disease.

Iksars are...well...lizards. They have scales. They have innate ac. Because they lived in a tropical environment for so long, they have adapted a high tolerance for heat, but lost their tolerance of ice. They also have developed to be more self sufficient.They have been so separated from the outside world they adapt to new concepts slower than other races.

 

[BenGordon]

All of these are marginal, sure, but when combined to affect all of the things listed...it becomes overpowered in my view.

You sure do like that word "overpowered" and frankly it's blasphemy. I also like your mention how gnome paladins and shadowknights are so amazing and yet there are less than 5 of them who are level 65 in the history of SoD combined.

I think the most valid argument in this thread is that if gnomes and erudites are so OMG OVERPOWERED then why are there so few of them at the high end of the game. Is this really the best thing you can think of that needs immediate attention to rebalancing? This is one of the most nitpicky threads I have ever seen in S & R and as a gnome cleric, it particularly offends me.

The simple fact is that the bonuses and such are small enough that they do not have a direct effect on game play. AND THEY DONT WTF. What ever happened to diversity? Could you please provide one single example of how the "overpowered" traits would affect one single aspect of the high end game? I dont think you can. They are at best unobserved. Your use of the word overpowered is sick. A small bonus != overpowered. A small bonus > no bonus. Man anybody who ever rolled a non gnome rogue is sure an idiot who wouldnt pass up the extra 10% haste? Wow man good thing we have so many gnome rogues out there at the high end taking advatange of this.

Also, I think it was Ponden who stated it, but if these bonuses are so insignificant, then a slight reduction (WORST CASE SCENARIO) won't be problematic. Your 110 damage increase becomes an 80 damage increase (speculation).

Or maybe it will? What kind of argument are you even trying to make? This is quite possibly the most contradictory and ridiculous thing I have seen from you among everything else.

If the gnomes and erudites would quit crying about a nerf, and offer suggestions, I honestly think it would prevent any such nerf. The whining makes it sound like you all knew it was overpowered and are trying to keep it that way.

People have already thrown out many great ideas. The more we throw out, the more the devs can either mimic, or get ideas of their own from.

You are making the poor assumption again that things even need to be changed. You are the master of straw man arguments. You think that just because we defend something means that its proof it is overpowered? Proof we knew all along something everyone else didnt? I really feel sorry for any dev who has to read through this slop of baseless claims. Weren't the racial bonuses and traits NOT LONG AGO readjusted?

 

[Llanoldar Lluindar]

ANGRY WORDS AND LOUD NOISES

I'm pretty sure he means overpowered strictly as a relative term.

The problem is not that Gnomes and Erudites get Real Ultimate Power from their racial bonuses. The problem is that the other races, broadly speaking, get practically nothing from their racial bonuses.

Gnomes and Erudites do not need to be nerfed. Other races need to have nice things.

Here's some ideas! (Strictly examples, TOTAL SPECULATION)

Wood elves are naturally in tune with nature, so they get bonuses against unnatural things, say, constructs. So, wood elves get melee crits (at a reduced rate), bonus melee damage, bonus spell damage, whatever, against constructs (golems, gargoyles, etc.) That's still a pretty weak racial bonus, but it's a start. I don't even know if that can be coded. How about an additional chance to resist root/snare spells, because, you know, we're all woodsy?

Or how about, Ogres get more from their strength stats than other races?

Trolls are used to living in the swamp so they get a natural mitigation (some small percentage, like, 5%? Less?) of poison and disease based spell damage. Barbs get the same for cold. Taldorians are from the Lands of Magic so they get the same for magic based spells? Maybe all of these could be paired with boosts to base resists (I know barbs already get some).

So now, lets say you want to make a warrior. Do you make a troll or a barb or a taldorian for the resists and spell damage reduction? Do you make an ogre for the bonus to damage from strength? Or hey, make a wood elf and you get snared less and have some other cool stuff maybe. And hey! You can still make a gnome for the focus and haste bonus!

Oh man, how cool, you can customize your character a little by picking a different race! And it actually makes a difference! But no one race is totally better than all the others!

Terrifying.

 

[robopirateninja]

I see no problem with augmenting other racial bonuses, although as an erudite wizard this talk of removing my overpowered bonus of seventeen damage per relic nuke is deeply troubling.

The only problem I see is that bonuses would either need to be generic, like the gnome and erudite bonuses are, or highly specialized for a single class (or at lest archetype/job) to be competitive. edit: Another thought I just had is that there really aren't enough different jobs in the game for classes to be improved equally in without becoming copies of one another, and there really isn't a reliable way to calculate things like mezz resistance (or being short lol) or mitigation (or eating more food lol) into +xx damage per nuke or +x hp per heal.

I think a lot of this thread is really wrongheaded though, and it starts in the OP. I mathed out the bonus using the numbers Zaela posted for relic nuke and the erudite bonus amounts to an increase of 0.7% dps, or 17 damage per nuke at the highest end. That's not in any way "overpowered" and has probably led to a lot of the bitching/whiteknighting in the thread. I gain and lose more dps than that on fights depending on how my wireless router is feeling on that day.

On the other hand, some of the racial bonuses are CERTAINLY lackluster. Trolls come to mind first, they really seem to get fucked HARD in the racial area.
TROLL
Infravision
Slam
Regeneration
-25% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-25% Duration to Stun targeting the player
-2.5% Experience Rate
-10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]

If the -% to fear and mezz duration abilities work at the high end on unresistable mezzes, I think a good place to start would be to replace the "resist" racial bonuses with mitigated duration instead, so that they would be effective throughout the game rather than only at the low end.

In general I think that improving other races is vastly preferable to nerfing Erudites and Gnomes. I wonder at the intention of the racial bonuses on those classes though, if they were supposed to make them better casters (and indeed two whines i see a lot in the thread are about gnome haste and erudite melee damage mitigation) then having the gnome focus apply only to caster focuses, and removing all but the energy/defense and focus/mind bonuses for erudites would make them a little better rounded while keeping in mind a benefit for a specific archetype.