Rebalancing Racial Bonuses

[stope21]

When I first started play SoD, I saw the racial bonuses/losses each race had and I thought this was completely awesome. I also really enjoyed the fact that not all of them were equal.

I will agree, that all racial traits are not equal, but this reason to why it is completely awesome.

Making them all balanced, to me is like throwing warning labels on everything, where even people who don't care to take the time to learn about a game can get the same benefits as the people that do.

Differences in powers, abilities, and having to make wise choices is what makes games fun for me. Making things completely even, and "balanced' is what makes the game great for 5 year olds. No matter what path you go you get relatively the same benefit.

So if you wanna make the game idiot proof, make them even. Want to keep the game fun, and throw on some tiny benefits for the more educated (as 16 dmg on a relic nuke is infact tiny), leave them the same.

I for one will be disappointed if all racial traits are made relatively equal.

 

[stope21]

\
I think a lot of this thread is really wrongheaded though, and it starts in the OP. I mathed out the bonus using the numbers Zaela posted for relic nuke and it amounts to an increase of 0.7% dps at the highest end. That's not in any way "overpowered" and has probably led to a lot of the bitching in the thread.

I crunched the numbers one time, and I came out with 0.625% increase in game on whatever ability your using (spell dmg, mellee dmg, etc).

Not even a full 1% .

I love how people are going so bananas over this not even 1% increase. That I personally honor as a difference.

I guess in a game of greedy gaming, there is no celebrating diversity! Only anger that other classes have a 1% edge.

 

[iaeolan]

I guess in a game of greedy gaming, there is no celebrating diversity! Only anger that other classes have a 1% edge.

Yea, since that's not equiv to 50AA in the high end for one aspect, let alone all focus or all specs. 1% edge is fine in whatever area... it's just that in comparison other races have crap of an edge

 

[Wesell]

[...] So if you wanna make the game idiot proof, make them even. Want to keep the game fun, and throw on some tiny benefits for the more educated (as 16 dmg on a relic nuke is infact tiny), leave them the same.

I for one will be disappointed if all racial traits are made relatively equal.

I can tell you've been paying attention. We've all been taking about making all the races just as good at wizarding as gnomes -- nailed it.

 

[Kazimir]

As per Iksars sure you get a boost to AC which is awesome at the very highest end. However, through the years of getting to the point which all your stats are maxxed Hidden Strength and what not, you lose lots of str and sta, as well as the duration decreases that prove very beneficial in some fights. As per gnomes they aren't that much stronger. And if you really want that benefit, reroll or win a race change lotto. Comparing the VERY HIGHEST END and not considering the YEARS of progression to get to max AAs/tomes/gear/clickies/focuses.............. is just absurd.

Sure I would love more sight warding on anik, but the fact of the matter is most chose their races a long time ago. So nerfing or buffing some would possibly change the minds of many. As well as SoD plays on a slight curve. Look at day time healing boosts from 6AM - 8pm vs life tap boosts from 8-6. Consider the dmg boosts from seasonal or holiday changes. Everyone has a boost every now and again and its the differences i feel makes SoD stand out from other game. Merely "balancing" the slight differences just stands to make everyone more the same.

So can i get heals on a wizard, primals on a ranger, 300+ melee dps on a chanter, 11k+ buffed hp on a mage, cunning on a necro, oh and while we are at it can i mem all my archaics on my warrior....... Making everything more and more the same just hurts a game. Everything has its benefits and determents. Just decide what you like and go with it.

Edit: And one more thing. The 7.5% exp gain humans have over Iksars is completely worthless at max tomes so why is it there at all w/ this logic. Because most players dont see max and the progression benefits out way the other boosts for some people.

 

[Eldorath]

When I first started play SoD, I saw the racial bonuses/losses each race had and I thought this was completely awesome. I also really enjoyed the fact that not all of them were equal.

I will agree, that all racial traits are not equal, but this reason to why it is completely awesome.

Making them all balanced, to me is like throwing warning labels on everything, where even people who don't care to take the time to learn about a game can get the same benefits as the people that do.

Differences in powers, abilities, and having to make wise choices is what makes games fun for me. Making things completely even, and "balanced' is what makes the game great for 5 year olds. No matter what path you go you get relatively the same benefit.

So if you wanna make the game idiot proof, make them even. Want to keep the game fun, and throw on some tiny benefits for the more educated (as 16 dmg on a relic nuke is infact tiny), leave them the same.

I for one will be disappointed if all racial traits are made relatively equal.

The problem is that you make this decision with very little information. Like when I chose high elf for charm immunity I thought it would be really useful. Its impossible to make a good long term decision without actually knowing the high end, and that takes many days of playing time.

I'm pretty sure if free race changes were offered then there would be a lot more iksar/gnome/erudites among lvl 65 raiding characters. Not that I'm making a big poll, but I know Thizik (Sald) and Finster would both prefer to be iksar or gnome over ogres.

 

[Kasreyn]

I play a human wizard.

 

[Kelval]

When I first started play SoD, I saw the racial bonuses/losses each race had and I thought this was completely awesome. I also really enjoyed the fact that not all of them were equal.

I will agree, that all racial traits are not equal, but this reason to why it is completely awesome.

Making them all balanced, to me is like throwing warning labels on everything, where even people who don't care to take the time to learn about a game can get the same benefits as the people that do.

Differences in powers, abilities, and having to make wise choices is what makes games fun for me. Making things completely even, and "balanced' is what makes the game great for 5 year olds. No matter what path you go you get relatively the same benefit.

So if you wanna make the game idiot proof, make them even. Want to keep the game fun, and throw on some tiny benefits for the more educated (as 16 dmg on a relic nuke is infact tiny), leave them the same.

I for one will be disappointed if all racial traits are made relatively equal.

And how about we'd find solutions to make them completely different but still balanced? As a wizard is different from a warrior, but both are balanced.

 

[vistachiri]

I'm pretty sure he means overpowered strictly as a relative term.

The problem is not that Gnomes and Erudites get Real Ultimate Power from their racial bonuses. The problem is that the other races, broadly speaking, get practically nothing from their racial bonuses.

Gnomes and Erudites do not need to be nerfed. Other races need to have nice things.

Here's some ideas! (Strictly examples, TOTAL SPECULATION)

Wood elves are naturally in tune with nature, so they get bonuses against unnatural things, say, constructs. So, wood elves get melee crits (at a reduced rate), bonus melee damage, bonus spell damage, whatever, against constructs (golems, gargoyles, etc.) That's still a pretty weak racial bonus, but it's a start. I don't even know if that can be coded. How about an additional chance to resist root/snare spells, because, you know, we're all woodsy?

Or how about, Ogres get more from their strength stats than other races?

Trolls are used to living in the swamp so they get a natural mitigation (some small percentage, like, 5%? Less?) of poison and disease based spell damage. Barbs get the same for cold. Taldorians are from the Lands of Magic so they get the same for magic based spells? Maybe all of these could be paired with boosts to base resists (I know barbs already get some).

So now, lets say you want to make a warrior. Do you make a troll or a barb or a taldorian for the resists and spell damage reduction? Do you make an ogre for the bonus to damage from strength? Or hey, make a wood elf and you get snared less and have some other cool stuff maybe. And hey! You can still make a gnome for the focus and haste bonus!

Oh man, how cool, you can customize your character a little by picking a different race! And it actually makes a difference! But no one race is totally better than all the others!

Terrifying.

I totally agree with this. Really kinda seems how it should be. There's a little bit of that sure but more would just increase strategy a bit, and increase diversity overall, which I really don't think would be a bad thing.

Lots of good ideas in this thread, still need to read some of the new posts but off to get myself a sammich and go to work first.

 

[Yally]

I'm all for a rebalance as long as non-paladin high elves dont get such a shaft. Besides having a chance to resist mez when i'm drunk and cast on myself... i cry!!!

 

[stope21]

The problem is that you make this decision with very little information. Like when I chose high elf for charm immunity I thought it would be really useful. Its impossible to make a good long term decision without actually knowing the high end, and that takes many days of playing time.

I'm pretty sure if free race changes were offered then there would be a lot more iksar/gnome/erudites among lvl 65 raiding characters. Not that I'm making a big poll, but I know Thizik (Sald) and Finster would both prefer to be iksar or gnome over ogres.

Eldo as you know I also play a high elf (who is a cleric aswell). Furthermore, I was debating between a gnome and a high elf when i made him. I knew the gnome would have larger heals at a lower mana cost, but that the high elf would be able to heal when everyone else in the raid was charmed. I was slightly disappointed that most charms encountered still hit me, but I don't think this was a problem with the class but a problem with the encounter designs not respecting racial abilities.

Honestly, from looking at the posters who are in support of a rebalance;
Its mostly the ultra-high end people, whom have chosen a less then optimal race. Or they play a class that cant be one of the slightly superior races. What I see is people uncontent with their choices, so they are seeking an easy out of game upgrade to make them feel better about being less then completly optimal. I'm really not sorry for any of yall, I also chose a less then optimal race for my cleric, but get over it.

In the end, at the high end;
That 1% is no where near the increase in ability you will have by being a more educated, better player. Or even by getting some more aa's (some races even get bonuses to xp!), more tomes, etc. I gauruntee you, that a good played high elf wizard will stomp the tar out of a mediocre gnome wizard (Or for that matter, any class/race vs any class/race played by a better player).

Note: Sorry to the more intelligent forms of life that I had to put the idiot proof comment in there so that Wesell can understand the point I'm making without confusion.

Lets face it guys, many of yall are disappointed you chose the wrong race.. or in some form or fashion you are trying to use the TINY race imbalances in hopes of a marginal upgrade to your character. In doing so, you are lobbying for the game to have less spice, less life, and therefore less fun.





Also, I would really like you to consider 1 thing, that many of you may have no considered in your quest for the holy grail:

Cause
Okay, you are disappointed you chose the less then optimal race. That was your decision, you would be slightly pleased if you got a bonus.

Effect
Racials are changed, all the people who made decisions they were happy with, now may not have chosen the optimal race. This was NOT their choice, this was later imposed on them, these people are PISSED that they are now stuck with a less then optimal race, and they had NO control over it.

Summary of cause/effect
For the small happiness you seek, you are alienating the people who are content and happy with the choice they made. Infact, you are forcing them into your shoes.



A rebuttal to this final point I just made that I can already foresee is the following (yes young padawan, i will save you your time, as I can see your actions before you make them);

"The superior races are not losing anything by "re-balancing" the racial traits, they are still just as powerful as they were before."

Although my response to this is already contained in the wording of previous statements, I will still continue to explain why this is an invalid arguement... The reason this is an invalid argument is because the whole purpose of this thread was because certain races were SLIGHTLY inferior to other races. No matter how balanced you make them, certain races will STILL be SLIGHTLY inferior to others. Thus making this whole thread, inevitably useless for the following reason.

Changes are made, other races are now SLIGHTLY inferior. Thus, the circle of life is complete (implies redundancy in the grand scheme of things).

 

[Eldorath]

I think it still stands that it is stupid that there is "the" optimal race, and that it does not become clear that that is the optimal race until you are 50 days of playing time into the game. Ideally all races would have some unique differences that would at least make them more useful or convenient in certain situations.

It would be very cool to see some sort of balancing, but I agree that this would be difficult to attain. Basically we would need someone like Wiz to either think of some sort of balances or officially state that races are being looked at and make a giant thread to throw out suggestions or what not.

As of right now it doesn't look like there is enough developer free time to focus on this, so unfortunately this is probably not going anywhere.

 

[iaeolan]

Lets face it guys, many of yall are disappointed you chose the wrong race.. or in some form or fashion you are trying to use the TINY race imbalances in hopes of a marginal upgrade to your character. In doing so, you are lobbying for the game to have less spice, less life, and therefore less fun.

So two races should have a greatly higher bonus than all the others for the sake of spice?

You make the argument that people want changed because they are angry that certain races have some edge over them, yet at the same time say you are opposed to the changes because it will make YOU angry. How is this good argumentative logic?

Certain races have a clear unbalanced advantages of others. Racial bonuses do not have to be homogeneous and can cater to certain classes more than others, but they just need to be balanced.

 

[Ponden]

Lets face it guys, many of yall are disappointed you chose the wrong race.. or in some form or fashion you are trying to use the TINY race imbalances in hopes of a marginal upgrade to your character. In doing so, you are lobbying for the game to have less spice, less life, and therefore less fun.

I made my char before racial traits went in.

In fact... many of my friends (some of whom are still in the Top 5) made their characters before racial traits.

In more words: No, Im not disappointed I chose the wrong race.
And the argument that there are not more gnomes/erudites/iksar in the top 5 inst 100% valid for obvious reasons.

Edit PS: I still think some race/class combo's deserve being looked at to give some incentive for their shit starting stats and racial traits -- like froglok wizards.

 

[Thinkmeats]

There's no way on this earth or any other to get me to read all six of these pages but I just wanted to say that I actually kind of like this thread.

Basically, we've known since ever that the race bonuses aren't quite equal to each other, but the actual task of sitting down and redoing them is fiddly, time-consuming, and annoying to implement. It's always been there as a 'would be nice to address but really w/e' problem (except for guild main tanks, where we've always recognized it as a more troubling concern).

If you guys refine a set of racial bonuses into something good (that means more quoting ideas you like to build momentum for them, maybe changing them slightly), that lowers the comparative cost of fixing this particular issue for us. That doesn't mean we'll do it right away, nor does it mean we'll use anything verbatim, but it does help.

 

[stope21]

So two races should have a greatly higher bonus than all the others for the sake of spice?

Lol, dude... greatly higher bonus...

Since when was 1% to 2% "greatly higher"???

Thats like saying ohh shit... theres a pebble on this vacant lot... we can't build a house on it because this pebble is in the way.

I think it still stands that it is stupid that there is "the" optimal race, and that it does not become clear that that is the optimal race until you are 50 days of playing time into the game. Ideally all races would have some unique differences that would at least make them more useful or convenient in certain situations.

Optimal bro, doesn't mean its not marginal.

If i can go to job "A" and make $50/hr and or job "B" and make $50.01 per hour. Going to job "B" would give me the optimal salary. But its COMPLETELY marginal. Nor could i even begin to say that i'll make more money at job "B" (the optimal job) then job "A".

So you want to quote? Let me prove this point even further by quoting a short segment of your arguement using your words.

I think it still stands that it is stupid that "the optimal race" isnt apparent until you 50 days of playig time into the game. So, you don't notice anything until you are 50 days played into the game.. so the first 50 days you don't even miss or understand or care what your race is. That seems pretty god damn marginal

But ohh god, now that your character isn't increasing in power at a fast enough rate, and you know all the ins and outs of the game.. all of a sudden you want this 1% increase!

Racial bonuses do not have to be homogeneous and can cater to certain classes more than others, but they just need to be balanced.

Please tell why it "needs" to be balanced beyond 1-2% difference? Nothing is going to be perfect... even by scientific definition, isn't 1-2% considered reasonable deviation? Eldorath your a very smart guy, you should know this. But in attempt to make everything perfect, yall can't settle for this amount that is below reasonable deviation.

 

[Wesell]

If i can go to job "A" and make $50/hr and or job "B" and make $50.01 per hour. Going to job "B" would give me the optimal salary. But its COMPLETELY marginal. Nor could i even begin to say that i'll make more money at job "B" (the optimal job) then job "A".

No, if you want to use this type of example it's more like this. Job A pays $50,000 a year job B pays 51,150 a year. Plus Job B's vacation bonuses and health plan are also 2.3% better than job A's.

 

[robopirateninja]

But also at job B you need to use up a buffslot to see or climb stairs. Oh wait these are retarded fucking comparisons and they are still only mildly worse than comparing some of the racial bonuses to each other as if they were a math equation.

 

[cornelweezy]

I like the "pigeonhole" idea. It makes sense to me we'd see more Eru/gnome casters than melees, in the same way we'd see more dwarf/halfling melees than casters.

Here's some bonuses to consider:

Ogres are moronic though conscious with a knack for clobbering. They aren't knights, as much as they're bash the shit out of everything. Let's give them a crazy innate +% to two handed weapon damage, like 5% or so. Let's also go crazy and give them an innate + chance to hit their target and give all their attacks a <1% chance to stun, while decreasing their proficiency to block with shields.

Trolls are goofy muck-dwellers known for eating humanoids. They've got some magic down, but prove to be sufficient fighters as well. Let's give them a less severe bonus to two handed weapon damage, but supplement it with a minor bonus to one handed weapon damage not including piercing weapons. Because they're notorious for being particularly weak to fire damage, let's give them a severe hit to fire resists while boosting their base poison and disease resists substantially. Let's also give them a greater bonus to HP gained per point of STA.

Dwarves are sturdy, love to mine, and fight valiantly even if not always intelligently. Let's give them a bonus to 1hs weapons, an increase chance to hit their targets, and a 2.5% boost to heals stacking with the daytime bonus. Additionally, because they know how to occupy cramped spaces, let's give them a noticeable innate haste bonus while in indoor zones. Let's also give them more ATK per point of STR, while decreasing their abilities (below the norm) to block with a shield.

Humans are the "base" race. They learn fast but don't particularly excel in any one way or another. Let's give them 1.5x their current exp bonus so it's even more noticeable, an innate +10% chance to crit in melee or with a spell, and a higher chance to block with a shield. Also, an additional 2 specialization points per level.

Wood Elves are woodsy, swift, and more playful than their high/dark counterparts. Let's give them an innate +% to bow crits and bow damage, as well as a fair root/snare resistance on top of what they've got. Let's also give them a moderate boost to 1hs weapon damage, and a minor boost to piercing damage. Also, a higher chance to dodge attacks.

High Elves are the highest of the elves and bask in good magics. Let's give them a whopping +10% to heals, as well as a sizable shield/parry/riposte bonus. Also, raise their base magic resists, while making them more vulnerable to damage during the night.

Dark elves are the high elf antithesis. Let's give them a +10% bonus to damage spells and DoTs, as well as the same sizable shield/parry/riposte bonus. Also, raise their base magic resists, while making them more vulnerable to damage during the day.

Half Elves are half human and half elf, and consequently, must be the more charismatic lore keepers in the lands. Give them a sizable base charisma boost, noticeable innate boosts to singing and all instruments, plus a minor bonus to piercing and 1hs damage delt. Give them a higher chance to proc per point of Dex. Increase their magic resists, but decrease all other resists appropriately (severely).

Barbarians clobber, use magic, and chill out doing manly shit. While everyone else is casting, Barbarians are whooping ass. Give them a +% bonus to all weapon damage delt including fists, a minor boost to ATK and HP gained per point of STR and STA respectively, as well a <1% chance to stun on every attack. Also, stunt their mana pools by awarding less mana per point of WIS.

Frogloks swim fast and are insanely loyal and chivalrous. Give them a sizeable bonus to blocking with shields, parry, riposte 1HB and 1HS weapon damage, as well as a retardedly epic bonus to avoidance and chance to hit while swimming. Cripple all their resists, and make them inherently vulnerable to fire and cold damage, as they've got soft froggy skin.

Halflings are the goofiest and rogueiest of all the races. I say they should get an increase to bonuses per point of DEX and AGI, as well as an innate bonus to backstab (damage) and related skills, on top of their innate death save chance.

Iksars should just be made as gangster as possible.

Erus/gnomes could use adjustment in terms of stat or resist bonuses, like expanded mana pools per point of INT, etc.


Wutang.

 

[iaeolan]

Lol, dude... greatly higher bonus...

Since when was 1% to 2% "greatly higher"???

a 1-2% bonus vs a, what, zero bonus in most cases?

that 1-2% difference is the same difference between pariah and max aligned spec bonus so why do people covet a 20% deity spec bonus so much?


Your Job comparison example is insufficient, that example would be analogous to picking jobs in two different states with different tax rates. You make a variable income based on gear, tomes, AAs, class... but one race will always have an edge