Rebalancing Racial Bonuses

Also, Yacub, to say that gnomes and erudites only make good casters is indeed false. Gnomes make good melee for the haste bonus and even better SKs for the haste AND the advanced foci. Erudites make great paladins and SKs as well due to their specialization bonus.

Comparing classes is races is the wrong way to compare things. Classes all fill roles and have different things they offer for exp. groups and raids. Races just have either power or flavor bonuses.

No one is saying we should make all of the races the same and just call them all Goobacks. We want the bonuses to be more in line with those of the gnome and erudite from a power standpoint.
 
Yacub said:
[...]We can talk about non g/e casters all we like, but in exchange for bonuses as casters, as other classes they are pitifully uncomparable. If we're going to take away the foci bonus from a gnome shadowknight, let's make him also immune to stun from the front like an ogre, with the hp regen of an iksar, and the innate stamina bonus of a troll, [...]
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This is the problem with the bonuses as they are, actually. Gnome or Erudites are on largely equal footing with Ogres and Trolls when it comes to being a tank class. Ogres don't have any extra stun immunity (they have shorter stun duration) and extra HP regen isn't any good.
 
Wesell said:
This is the problem with the bonuses as they are, actually. Gnome or Erudites are on largely equal footing with Ogres and Trolls when it comes to being a tank class. Ogres don't have any extra stun immunity (they have shorter stun duration) and extra HP regen isn't any good.
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Read: End game is all that matters and all "balancing" efforts should be made to impact it and only it.
 
Yacub said:
Read: End game is all that matters and all "balancing" efforts should be made to impact it and only it.
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The end game is where it becomes more noticeable, but those 2 races are a notch above their peers all along the way as well.
 
Spiritplx said:
Comparing classes is races is the wrong way to compare things. Classes all fill roles and have different things they offer for exp. groups and raids. Races just have either power or flavor bonuses.

No one is saying we should make all of the races the same and just call them all Goobacks. We want the bonuses to be more in line with those of the gnome and erudite from a power standpoint.
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Yeah, it's the wrong way to compare things if you don't have an answer to the argument. Races fill roles and have different things they offer for class selections; I reiterate, it's obvious from a roleplay and non-roleplay perspective that all races would not be able to perform as well as one class as another. That's called a niche. The spells you get access to and the weapons you can equip aren't the end-all of your character, no matter how hard you try.

It's a good point that the gnome and erudite trait bonuses really allow them to be better at ANY class they choose. My argument that they make phenomenal casters was only to point out the appropriateness of the trait bonus for the low level game to the midlevel game, coupled with the gnome and erudite base intelligence, which is higher than all others. Which suggests at first glance that maybe...gnomes and erudites make better casters.

If you want to walk like an erudite or gnome and talk like an erudite or gnome, play an erudite or a gnome. Don't be mad, 65 levels later, when you realize as a human, you can't do the same things.

There's more game here than the end game, people.
 
Tempus said:
The end game is where it becomes more noticeable, but those 2 races are a notch above their peers all along the way as well.
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Make a troll shadowknight, then a gnome shadowknight. Give them no gear, the same weapon, and the same specializations. You tell me who is better at shadowknighting in application to level 20.
 
Yacub said:
Make a troll shadowknight, then a gnome shadowknight. Give them no gear, the same weapon, and the same specializations. You tell me who is better at shadowknighting in application to level 20.
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Do you frequently play naked?


No, I didn't think so. Stop making absurd arguments.
 
Tempus said:
Do you frequently play naked?


No, I didn't think so. Stop making absurd arguments.
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We have to judge ability from an objective point of view. You could also give them the same gear, but I know that would only serve to prove my point the troll was a better candidate.

How about you come up with some examples and numbers of how SO UNFAIRLY gnomes and erudites are overpowered, and I'll get on the bandwagon. So far it sounds like a flat "We can't do what they can do" is the phrase, and that's a pitiful excuse to go tearing into a race.
 
Your argument essentially boils down to 'well considering the backstory on these races, it makes sense for them to have those bonuses' which oddly enough, nobody has actually disagreed with. What is being argued is that those particular bonuses either need to be scaled back because they're pretty damn big compared to other race bonuses OR (and you seem to be missing the OR here) other races need a boost in areas that fit their racial backstories.

If you want to say that gnomes and erudites SHOULD make the best casters because of their racial background, then that's fine. But if you want to say that, then you can't get pissy because other races should be good at certain other classes to the same extent.

Edit - For example. Frogloks are the only race that automatically starts out aligned to a god. Due to their racial backstory, they are fucking fanatical about Malath. To me that signals that maybe they ought to be arguably the best clerics in the same way that an erudite is arguably the best caster.
 
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Yacub said:
We have to judge ability from an objective point of view. You could also give them the same gear, but I know that would only serve to prove my point the troll was a better candidate.

How about you come up with some examples and numbers of how SO UNFAIRLY gnomes and erudites are overpowered, and I'll get on the bandwagon. So far it sounds like a flat "We can't do what they can do" is the phrase, and that's a pitiful excuse to go tearing into a race.
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How about you quit knee jerking. I mean I can see that since you play an Erudite Int Caster you would want to fight to protect your monopoly on the goodies, but no one is trying to steal your lucky charms here. The goal of this discussion is to highlight that many of the races have "flavor traits" that do not really impact gameplay that much, once you get past level 50 or so, and a few have "flavor traits" that start helping at level 1 and never stop. What I want to see is not you precious erudites and gnomes get nerfed, but rather tweak the other racial traits so that they will always have a slight impact on gameplay in the same manner.
 
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Everywhere in this thread gnome and erudite players are QQ.

"dont nerf my not so signifigant....... I mean.. insignifigant bonus!!!!" " really, its not that much!"


... at least change your fomelo links to something other then gnome or erudite before you post here.

Theres something wrong when many of the high end players would take a race change to gnome/erudite/iksar in a heartbeat.


Also: Halflings are the worst rogue race by far and I am pretty convinced the innate death save is currently broken.
 
Slight tangent, but does the +50 hide make them better at evading than other rogues? I was having a discussion on that the other day with a halfling rogue friend, and he certainly seems to think it does, though how to go about testing that is a bit perplexing to me.
 
Tempus said:
How about you quit knee jerking. I mean I can see that since you play an Erudite Int Caster you would want to fight to protect your monopoly on the goodies, but no one is trying to steal your lucky charms here. The goal of this discussion is to highlight that many of the races have "flavor traits" that do not really impact gameplay that much, once you get past level 50 or so, and a few have "flavor traits" that start helping at level 1 and never stop. What I want to see it not that you precious erudites and gnomes get nerfed, but rather tweak the other racial traits so that they will always have a slight impact on gameplay.
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That's rough. Assuming I'm biased.

Honestly, in response, I've never noticed any bonus to my nuking from specializations. It's such a minor bonus that unless someone can post a parse SHOWING HOW A GNOME OR ERUDITE HAS AN EDGE, I'm going to keep on believing it isn't near as severe as anyone in this thread has dared to suggest. And if you really want the truth, I never even knew my race trait existed until I saw this thread...I chose erudite because I'm black, and incidentally, they're black. I wanted a character that looked like me, and I always wanted to play a mage. Done and done.

Don't mock me. I've tried to keep my language fair and levelheaded throughout my posts in this thread. Racial traits need defending because, as I'm sure nearly everything else in SoD, they were meticulously considered by Wiz and the devs, and put into play as such for a reason. You haven't given jack for reasons why they should be changed besides of these allegedly broke gameplay effects, so please PROVE THE EFFECT.
 
Sadly no. The +50 hide is only a starting statistic. Meaning.. once you hit 51 hide at level ... 8? Your bonus is null.

If your class does not have the hide skill however, you get to keep it. So... the sneak/hide are great perks for non-rogues.
 
Ponden said:
Everywhere in this thread gnome and erudite players are QQ.

"dont nerf my not so signifigant....... I mean.. insignifigant bonus!!!!" " really, its not that much!"


... at least change your fomelo links to something other then gnome or erudite before you post here.

Theres something wrong when many of the high end players would take a race change to gnome/erudite/iksar in a heartbeat.


Also: Halflings are the worst rogue race by far and I am pretty convinced the innate death save is currently broken.
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No poster in this thread has proved a bonus even exists, besides word of mouth and the notes at character creation.

If you have to get level 65, 200+ AAs and raid gear to notice the bonus, I think it's an absurd argument to make that the bonus is overpowered or (which is even more hilarious) imbalanced. Come on, people.
 
I have faith that you can start reading the posts before mashing the quote and reply buttons Yacub. Don't prove me wrong! :monocle:
 
Congratulations. A perfectly valid point of discussion has now been shit to hell and gotten way off topic. Im going to start mashing the forum ban button if this continues.
 
Yacub,

Some of the bonuses are assumed, but most can be tested by just seeing how much you nuke for and someone else at your tier (gear/AA/tome) nukes for or replace nuke with heal. Parsing a erudite's avoidance bonus they get through specializations is time consuming and difficult, so that one is assumed (though I would think that with heals and nukes being affected, that the assumption is fairly valid).

The numbers aren't just mind-blowingly off that the devs are going to scream when they see it, but how overpowered does something have to be before it gets rebalanced? That is the question here. Are the bonuses of gnomes and erudites good enough to warrant other races getting small upgrades? I think yes. If gnomes and erudites are not touched, then I don't see why gnome and erudite players would be so against having other races have some power abilities instead of just flavor abilities.
 
Yacub said:
[...]So far it sounds like a flat "We can't do what they can do" is the phrase, and that's a pitiful excuse to go tearing into a race.[...]
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This is just not correct. It's more like Gnomes can do X and Ogres can do Y. X is better than Y and is useful to a wider range of classes for more of the game so they should be rebalanced.

Yacub said:
No poster in this thread has proved a bonus even exists, besides word of mouth and the notes at character creation.

If you have to get level 65, 200+ AAs and raid gear to notice the bonus, I think it's an absurd argument to make that the bonus is overpowered or (which is even more hilarious) imbalanced. Come on, people.
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These bonuses are part of the game and if one doesn't work for whatever reason it's a bug and not relevant to this discussion.

Of course you haven't noticed you've been an Erudite this whole time.
 
Spiritplx said:
Some of the bonuses are assumed, but most can be tested by just seeing how much you nuke for and someone else at your tier (gear/AA/tome) nukes for or replace nuke with heal. Parsing a erudite's avoidance bonus they get through specializations is time consuming and difficult, so that one is assumed (though I would think that with heals and nukes being affected, that the assumption is fairly valid).

If gnomes and erudites are not touched, then I don't see why gnome and erudite players would be so against having other races have some power abilities instead of just flavor abilities.
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I'm just saying, if anyone can actually stop for a minute and think, "hey! those are there for a reason" and THEN think, "but maybe they're too extreme" and show how extreme they are, I would be totally down for limiting the outliers. I want the game to be as balanced as the next guy, and that's on every level, even the ones I haven't got to yet.

I don't really care if gnomes or erudites are touched. I didn't choose erudite for the race traits; if the analysis is thorough, bring on the changes in good faith.

But you can't make a demand on an assumption. I had no idea the bonus was significant enough to warrant review, as I've never seen a bonus, and as months and months as an Erudite caster, I've never heard anyone mention trait imbalances.

Wesell doesn't give me the benefit of the doubt. Of course I've grouped with non-erudite magicians and haven't noticed a change AT ALL in our nuking that couldn't be explained with a quick fomelo. Humans. Gnomes. Dark Elves.

I just want to see some numbers in the long run. If it proves to be a 1% or even 10% difference, why the outrage? I don't see as many gnomes and erudites anyway. That's just me.
 
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