Ranger Auto Fire

stope21

Dalayan Elder
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but i would like to bring it up again as other changes to the game have been made regarding rangers.

In the recent past, rangers bow dps has been nerfed twice. The first one was a small nerf, and the second was rather large. As a result, rangers are doing considerably less damage.

When the topic was being discussed, rangers we're being compared to rogues as far as DPS was concerned and the fact that they were doing comparable or higher damage then rogues was the key arguement. In the same light, i'd like to compare rangers to rogues and bards.

To make a bards life easier on SoD, they were given the ability to click and play songs without having to continually and repeatedly click the songs they wish to play over and over again. But although bards were priveledged with this, rangers were neglected, as that would make their class overpowered and not require human input. Well, rangers are definatly far from over powered now that they took such a heavy nerf to their bow dps. Furthermore, they would still require human input, as to jolt ever once in a while (which is the same for rogues, they have to hit back stab every once in a while).

Now lets look at bowing ranger to a rogue; Rogues have to duck out of combat and stance, rangers have to jolt, stance and have other spells they are required to cast as well. Where a rogue can fail his duck out, a ranger can have his jolt resisted. Overall, see very little difference in the player input levels between rogues/rangers if rangers were to have auto fire, yet the rogue is going to now dominate the ranger in dps -- which they should considering they can only attack mobs that dont ramp/ww, even on ramp/ww mobs a good rogue can still dps these mobs, they wont clock full out dps but they can still do decent dmg (and no, im not talking about throwing), but I'm not here to tell people advanced stratagies.

In short, rangers are doing far less dps then rogues for a lot more work if using bow. I understand rangers can engage mobs that rogues 'cant' (a good rogue can at reduced dps), rogues deserve to do more dmg when they can fully engage and this is fair. But i dont think its fair that rangers have to do much more work to do the less dps that they do, when compared to the job of a rogue and the abilities of a bard.
 
I don't think a direct comparison of ranger to rogue is very productive, but I do seem to recall mention of A) arrow cost and B) lack of autofire as two intended features that would offset a ranger's power and versatility.

Given that ranger DPS now seems a bit more balanced with other aspects of the class and with other classes, I for one would approve of something to balance the class a bit more in terms of one of those two limitations, either via autofire or endless quiver.
 
Hasrett said:
I don't think a direct comparison of ranger to rogue is very productive, but I do seem to recall mention of A) arrow cost and B) lack of autofire as two intended features that would offset a ranger's power and versatility.

Given that ranger DPS now seems a bit more balanced with other aspects of the class and with other classes, I for one would approve of something to balance the class a bit more in terms of one of those two limitations, either via autofire or endless quiver.

Endless quiver, although would be completly awsome, has a large flaw. This is that it essentially single handedly destroys the market and tradeskill for/of arrows and fletching. Furthermore at this point, the cost of arrows is only 1 more thing that rangers have going against them and supports my suggestion and if the lack of auto fire was used as a previous justification for their power/versatility then it definatly should be implemented now they they lost their power.
 
I think the point was to put rangers above the line of where they should be in DPS progression because it involves using the bow every shot.

If it were to be auto-fired, rangers would get yet another DPS nerf to put them in line.

Rangers SHOULD be doing less dps than rogues, and rogues have to hit the backstab button every 12 seconds. Rangers get more utility, less dps, can solo, and have to push the button more.

ICU edit
stope21 said:
now they they lost their power.
Rangers by far did not "lose thier power." Bow DPS is still considerable and is only 1 aspect of the class, you could very easily just go melee the mob and cast/kick if you think bow dps is so bothersome
 
iaeolan said:
Rangers SHOULD be doing less dps than rogues, and rogues have to hit the backstab button every 12 seconds. Rangers get more utility, less dps, can solo, and have to push the button more.

They ARE doing less dps. Rangers have to hit their bow every 2-4 seconds AND jolt, cast spells etc, as stated in my previous post comparing rogues/rangers.

Lets not forget, rogues DO get utility aswell -- pick lock, sense trap, can scout w/ sneak/hide, etc. They arnt just robots with the sole purpose of backstabbing and doing a lot of damage. So saying rangers get abilities and rogues dont is a fallacy.
 
The main point im trying to make is that the balance between power and abilitiy versus player attention required is now upset when comparing rangers to rogues and bards. Rangers just arnt doing enough for the skill and attention required to do what they do. Autofire would balance this.
 
Each of the three classes you listed, ranger bard rogue, can attentively dps and inattentively dps. To dps at max, each of them has to hit a large amount of buttons in a small time frame (you forget that bards must cast once every 3 seconds and jolt!). Rogues have the least amount of input, backstab then evade every 12 seconds, but have the greatest DPS as as a consequence are very niche in melee dps and that's about it besides scouting (because that is used all the time :what:). Bards by far have the most utility, but also have the least amount of dps for this work, rangers on the other hand have this great range dps aside from their melee dps which offers it's own benefits ASIDE from the massive dps.
 
iaeolan said:
Bards by far have the most utility, but also have the least amount of dps for this work, rangers on the other hand have this great range dps aside from their melee dps which offers it's own benefits ASIDE from the massive dps.

Bards can mezz, pot4, +nuke/over haste song etc AND can do 200+ dps. My ranger was clocking 320ish dps PRE-NERF. The 200 dps of a bard + THAT miriad of powerful abilities is WAY better then what rangers WERE doing BEFORE they got nerfed. Now rangers are doing FAR less. If i had a choice between a bard or a ranger on a raid i'd tell the ranger to gtfo in a heart beat.

Bards have the least dps, but really it is just under what rangers can do, so overall a bard kicks the crap out of a ranger. Rangers are clearly out of whack in my eyes and should either be doing more dps or at very least auto fire. All im suggesting is auto fire.
 
stope21 said:
Bards can mezz, pot4, +nuke/over haste song etc AND can do 200+ dps. My ranger was clocking 320ish dps PRE-NERF. The 200 dps of a bard + THAT miriad of powerful abilities is WAY better then what rangers WERE doing BEFORE they got nerfed. Now rangers are doing FAR less. If i had a choice between a bard or a ranger on a raid i'd tell the ranger to gtfo in a heart beat.

Bards have the least dps, but really it is just under what rangers can do, so overall a bard kicks the crap out of a ranger. Rangers are clearly out of whack in my eyes and should either be doing more dps or at very least auto fire. All im suggesting is auto fire.

Please compare Rangers and Bards of the same tier :psyduck:

EDIT: Bards get the bonus in raids over rangers purely for pot4 and a few choice songs. After the first bard, though, any raid leader who chooses bard over ranger in an average raid is retarded as hell.
 
iaeolan said:
EDIT: Bards get the bonus in raids over rangers purely for pot4 and a few choice songs. After the first bard, though, any raid leader who chooses bard over ranger in an average raid is retarded as hell.

You're right bards are only good on raids, they cant mez/cc for xp groups -- only in raids, and bards surely cant solo.

Bringing up having multiple bards/rangers on raids is completly irrelevant to this topic.
 
stope21 said:
Bringing up having multiple bards/rangers on raids is completly irrelevant to this topic.
stope21 said:
If i had a choice between a bard or a ranger on a raid i'd tell the ranger to gtfo in a heart beat.
Odd.....


Anyways...

I would really be interested to know what bards can pull 100+ melee only dps at your tier
 
iaeolan said:
Odd.....


Anyways...

I would really be interested to know what bards can pull 100+ melee only dps at your tier

Why would they only be calculated at mellee only?
 
Quote from: stope21 on Today at 07:38:10 PM
Bringing up having multiple bards/rangers on raids is completly irrelevant to this topic.

Quote from: stope21 on Today at 07:20:20 PM
If i had a choice between a bard or a ranger on a raid i'd tell the ranger to gtfo in a heart beat.

Odd.....
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I dont see ur point, ur simplying putting quotes in different orders to try to make some statement. Please argue constructively or dont crap up my thread.
 
Ranger sucked back those days, got powered, got nerfed and nerfed again, imo is almost as they was.

We must spent ALOT of money on Flechting/Arrows to do a bit more dps.

Not to tell that flecthing is a bit bugged, many combines wont work (yes, i'vre tried), to max fletching u must spent many money on combines to see which one it would xp, we get like 8 bows that we can use, while rogues get many many 1hp and bards get many many instruments.

There was this plan, given to A PLAYER, to make flecthing revamp, but the PLAYER simply disapeared and now the project is stand-by.

Rogue, as the name says, pickpocket, backstab and hide/sneak.
Bards, as the name says, sing songs.
In my honest opinion, rangers, as the name says, they should be specialized in bows. But you know what? They not. They get this simple bow, and just shot with some regular arrows, just like any other WAR PAL SHD ROG can use. Ranger dont get 1 single skill they could bring up against other classes. (Track, bow, disarm, sneak, jolt, nuke, w/e you can immagine). The only thing that was making the difference was the bow damage, that was quite good after the 1st cooldown, but again some players are upset for not beating dps and asking for another cooldown.

my 2 cents
 
iaeolan said:
.... and rogues have to hit the backstab button every 12 seconds.....

Its every 5.4(ish) seconds with 100% haste FYI.

Alot of these arguments are rather worthless. If you simply want to come out and say "" Hey, Its really annoying to click range attack all the time can it be automated. Or at least third party autofire become staff supported?""

Well, Id agree with you.

But trying to use class comparisons (especially when you get the facts wrong) is :psyduck:
And I am speaking to the whole thread here, not just Iae.
 
Rofl, if rangers get auto fire, would be really easy to duo box rangers on raids and such... i belive thats the main reason to not make auto-fire here.

Would be very easy to focus on your cleric/druid or whatever, and leave the ranger with auto-fire on forever with a less dmg arrow so u wont grab agro or something like that, and focus on the other toon and still do a lot more dps then switch screen back and forth clickin the ranged attack.
 
Ponden said:
Its every 5.4(ish) seconds with 100% haste FYI.

Alot of these arguments are rather worthless. If you simply want to come out and say "" Hey, Its really annoying to click range attack all the time can it be automated. Or at least third party autofire become staff supported?""

Well, Id agree with you.

But trying to use class comparisons (especially when you get the facts wrong) is :psyduck:
And I am speaking to the whole thread here, not just Iae.
What i understood as Stope21 ideas, is that people used class comparisons to cooldown rangers dps, instead of just keep with it, and think as a benefit, since on raid it could help.

At least there isnt any pvp so they should really argue for dps comparisons between classes, so in my opinion the 2nd cooldown on rangers was a bad idea
 
brasileira said:
What i understood as Stope21 ideas, is that people used class comparisons to cooldown rangers dps, instead of just keep with it, and think as a benefit, since on raid it could help.

At least there isnt any pvp so they should really argue for dps comparisons between classes, so in my opinion the 2nd cooldown on rangers was a bad idea

There is a general progression of dps in classes that has been discussed a lot. You don't need pvp for motivation to balance classes...... :tinfoil:

Edit: It's unclear what you were getting at, but here's the dps chart!

Wiz said:
For a frame of reference, my general idea of how classes potential for DPS (not including buffing others' DPS) should be ordered:

1: Rogue (Sustained master), Wizard (Burst master, decent to good sustained)

2: Monk, Ranger, Magician, Necromancer

3: Warrior, Druid, Beastlord

4: Knights, Shaman, Cleric, Enchanter, Bard

On scale of DPS reliance... note that this isn't ordered by how good the class is at it, only how much of its DPS is on which end of the scale.

BURST ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSTAINED
Wizard | Druid Enchanter | Magician Cleric | Shaman Necromancer | Ranger Shadowknight Paladin | Beastlord Bard | Warrior Monk Rogue
 
since when do we call nerfs a cooldown? :what:

Also, Iae, that chart of dps comparisons is wayyyy outdated.
 
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