Proposed Monk Changes

A new system that incorporates our bloated stances, silly combos, and neglected innates into one cohesive system? If only someone had proposed a top to bottom overhaul like that in post #204. Though looking back there are numerous things I would change on that post (simplify), but it certainly beats a bunch of disparate game elements and unused abilities.
 
I'd only be in favor of something like your idea if the whole endurance and stance switching system is overhauled as well. Having to spend half of your time in combat in stance 16 doing substantially lower DPS and not having access to any of the cool abilities is a huge issue to me. Not to mention people that dont have stance 16 yet needing to spend 5 times longer to regain endurance, so only being able to use their fun things a small fraction of their time in combat. Same with having to wait so long to switch stances. If those were addressed then I think being so reliant on stances would be bearable.
 
Yeah, endurance would be a real pita. I think when I composed (poorly- look at all those typos!) that post/system I was too worried about making it seem OP and people immediately discounting the whole shebang. The original idea was to have a stance exactly like aggressive and exactly like defensive which would change the functionality of special attacks. No drain and 15 second CD between changing stances and having access to 3 to 5 different specials instantly- which when you think in terms of 12sec per single special in the combo system that is pretty damn fast.

Though thinking back to my early training days as a monk the elements are essential to the, um, essence of monkness. I am so geeked out about getting a spell gem changed to the proper color that maybe I will go for broke and rewrite post #204 making changes based off the good feedback in this thread, but based off cool elements instead of questionable at best animals. The devs probably have some cool idea already, but then again combos...
 
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There's definitely an elemental theme to monks so that might be interesting. I'd be afraid of being too reliant on one element like fire to do good dps though. As it is, roughly half of my dps is from procs of various sorts, and if I fight somewhere like bloodfires or against high-MR mobs I lose 100-200+ DPS as a result of being so reliant on fire and magic damage. But as long as we have some other options that could be cool.

Whatever happens, the biggest issue at the high end now is that monks just don't scale at the same rate as the other classes. Even though low tier monks are extremely good DPS right now, by the time you get to tier 11 or so they've fallen substantially behind other classes. With human bane and a few items like pre-nerf blazewind gloves we could still do pretty good but that's gone now and it's a huge loss for the class.

If the combo system gets scrapped, I'd hope that the issues it was meant to address are actually taken care of- "an actual sizable increase to both monk DPS and survivability with a non negligable increase to their utility." Otherwise monks would pretty much only be able to do high end stuff after it's trivial with a group of casters/rangers and your guild needs to feed you loot.
 
I had the chance to zone out at work today and draw up a simple but effective stance/special system based off the elements that would certainly be "an actual sizable increase to both monk DPS and survivability with a non negligable increase to their utility" what with the utility stance and tankish stance. It was similar in concept to the animal stance thing I did way back with special attacks changing functionality, but I still have no idea if that is even possible. Moreover, I do not forsee any serious class redesigns with 3.0 on the horizon then Combat Abilities entering into the mix and other better fixes available. Even worse is that several people will defend the slow and clumsy and not-very-interactive combo system because they cannot differentiate what they get with how they get it :(

All and all it feels like just waiting for 3.0 and focusing on other characters in the meantime is the way to go.
 
donfolstar3 said:
I had the chance to zone out at work today and draw up a simple but effective stance/special system based off the elements that would certainly be "an actual sizable increase to both monk DPS and survivability with a non negligable increase to their utility" what with the utility stance and tankish stance. It was similar in concept to the animal stance thing I did way back with special attacks changing functionality, but I still have no idea if that is even possible. Moreover, I do not forsee any serious class redesigns with 3.0 on the horizon then Combat Abilities entering into the mix and other better fixes available. Even worse is that several people will defend the slow and clumsy and not-very-interactive combo system because they cannot differentiate what they get with how they get it :(

All and all it feels like just waiting for 3.0 and focusing on other characters in the meantime is the way to go.
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A+. You had me at "effective stance/special system based off the elements". I would be for scrapping the current system for a new overhauled system to replace it (whenever/if that happens). Either way, they are still "different" than spamming flying kick all the time. At least now i get to decide if i want to lifetap or do some agro making dps kicks (basically the only two i use) vs flying-kick-spam.
 
There are other simple things that could be done to help the situation a bit too. One of our AAs increases the damage of our special attacks by 20-100% and even with that, my round kick does 10 dps. Changing that to add a flat damage value, or a value that scales based on worn haste (similar to the rogue backstab change) would help a lot if monks will still be using special attacks other than flying kick in the future. Similarly, our Elemental Fists class tome is worth roughly 10 dps per rank if you're fighting things that aren't resistant to fire or cold. Altering the procs from the tome to scale a bit better shouldn't be hard.
 
Just used the the new /s 8 on Rohk and was disappointed, I ended up with a 5% melee crit rate, while better than nothing isnt really enough to make me carry my own weight on the fight.
 
Yeah, I noticed crits in cita, and while I wasn't sure if it was from that having Grinkles (chanter) in the group, the crits were few enough to be barely noticeable. I haven't parsed yet, but I wondered if it even outperforms /s 2 or /s 15 against constructs.
 
Well it gave a few crits to Galsan too, so it appears to be a weak version of unmaking. But gaining 10% haste in s2 is more personal dps than 5% crit, although with only two melee in the group i think s8 is a wash vs s2, except it consumes stamina so its not really worth it in the current form. Maybe it does something besides allowing a few crits? If so I couldnt notice it and my dps was pretty bad overall.
 
Sounds like s15 would still be better DPS unless your group has 3+ melees then.
Tarutao said:
I'm not really involved in this particular change, but as a blanket statement:

"Oh look, something new... I bet the specific numbers involved are probably up for discussion if they are done in a constructive manner."
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I'm well aware, I was in frequent contact with slaariel when the last round of changes were made (combos and h2h/fk mods changes). And I've probably posted more in this thread than anyone else, and would say that most of my posts are constructive and well thought out.

I'm hoping this stance is simply bugged rather than working as intended though... melees at the high tiers have 25+% crit against normal targets and even with that, are parsing well below casters. I don't really see how someone could look at that and think bringing melees up to ~80% of their already low DPS would actually fix anything.
 
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I'm not really involved in this particular change, but as a blanket statement:

"Oh look, something new... I bet the specific numbers involved are probably up for discussion if they are done in a constructive manner."
 
The stance is the same as enchanter unmaking curse for constructs. I literally copied the spell and code over, and made it shorter duration since it would constantly proc.

So the more people you have who benefit from crits, the more damage it does. Group composition, as well as group/raid number will play a huge part of this. Perhaps the monks personal DPS will only jump around the same as his other styles, but in a raid situation (without an enchanter especially, but with too depending on mobs and what spells they need up) it should be at least pretty useful.

It was not meant to really fix anything this thread has complained about, and it replaced a style that was never really used at all. We wanted to break the enchanter monopoly on construct crits, and figured Monks needed the welfare more than most. It also seemed to fit pretty well thematically.


Edit: Unless the proc rate is too low to keep the spell on the mob the entire time? I think we mathed it out so it would be on 95% of the time at least, so if this is not the case, let us know so we can fix it.
 
All fights with identical buffs. Not performing monk combos or kicking. Horok/Fist of the Dawn used for all fights.

Fight 1. /s 2 the entire fight
A citadel construct on 7/21/2013 in 269sec

Total
--- DMG: 165315 (100%) @ 615 dps (615 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 80894 @301dps

Raxton
--- DMG: 165315 (100%) @ 615 dps (615 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 69644 @259dps

Rixiah
--- DMG to PC: 11250 @67dps

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Crushing DPS=245
Crushing Hits=516
Crushing Misses=136
Crushing Crits=0
H2H DPS=192
H2H Hits=311
H2H Misses=99
H2H Crits=0

----------

Fight 2. /s 8 the entire fight
A citadel construct on 7/21/2013 in 266sec

Total
--- DMG: 165003 (100%) @ 620 dps (620 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 77632 @292dps

Raxton
--- DMG: 165003 (100%) @ 620 dps (620 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 66832 @251dps

Rixiah
--- DMG to PC: 10800 @65dps

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Crushing DPS=244
Crushing Hits=463
Crushing Misses=134
Crushing Crits=43
H2H DPS=201
H2H Hits=291
H2H Misses=79
H2H Crits=15

----------

Fight 3. /s 2 the entire fight
A citadel construct on 7/21/2013 in 257sec

Total
--- DMG: 164932 (100%) @ 642 dps (642 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 81401 @318dps

Raxton
--- DMG: 164932 (100%) @ 642 dps (642 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 70151 @274dps

Rixiah
--- DMG to PC: 11250 @75dps

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Crushing DPS=240
Crushing Hits=470
Crushing Misses=147
Crushing Crits=0
H2H DPS=185
H2H Hits=303
H2H Misses=84
H2H Crits=0


----------

Fight 4. /s 8 the entire fight
A citadel construct on 7/21/2013 in 261sec

Total
--- DMG: 165678 (100%) @ 635 dps (635 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 69466 @267dps

Raxton
--- DMG: 165678 (100%) @ 635 dps (635 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 59566 @229dps

Rixiah
--- DMG to PC: 9900 @63dps

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Crushing DPS=247
Crushing Hits=449
Crushing Misses=136
Crushing Crits=39
H2H DPS=186
H2H Hits=262
H2H Misses=86
H2H Crits=24

----------

Summary:

Fight 2 combined melee crit rate was 7.7%.
Fight 4 combined melee crit rate was 8.9%.

For comparison, on 5 non-construct Citadel mobs Raxton’s melee crit rate was 347 crits out of 1091 hits or 31.8%.

I think /s 8 needs to result in significantly more crits. Thanks.
 
Raxton said:
I think /s 8 needs to result in significantly more crits. Thanks.
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Why? It is a situational tool that is arguably not worth using at all. Fits right in with most of the monk toolbag. This thread is loaded with suggestions both big and small to improve the monk class, some of which was generally well received, but yet again all that player feedback is ignored in favor of a "fix" out of the blue. "This is our sandbox", but I vaguely recall hearing that active staff who interact with players was a selling point for Shards of Dalaya. Monks and Paladins currently living through a Kafka novella may find that claim dubious.
 
Why? Because Woldaff said the proc should be up 95% and if its not then let him know so it can be fixed. 95% uptime should result in about 30% (.95*.318) crit rate instead of 8%. I understand your disillusioned with SoD because of Pallies lack of fix but lets keep that out of this thread thanks.
 
The spell the monk procs refers to the *exact* same code as the enchanter spell. While the spell is on the mob, there should be absolutely no difference.

I am going to increase the proc rate a ton this patch. It *should* be applied the majority of the time a monk is on the mob. Hell, the monk should be able to keep it on two mobs if they are sneaky.
 
Tier 9 gloves are still better dps than tier 13 gloves, Jumbers said a few months ago that +h2h was being re-evaluated, is that still the case?
 
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