Proposed Monk Changes

cian2

Dalayan Master
if any dev could share info on how FD assistance penalty works, it would be interesting to know

after some discussion with various monks/people and testing myself with lleoc + tank, i can't figure out any sort of consistency. i've had fights where i FD 20+ times and no assistance penalty, and some where i FD once and lose exp, and the amount lost also seems random. both tanking and not tanking. it may potentially be bugged.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
My test was to box Radaere and Susvain and kill Gatherbot 1 (due to his high health) a couple times. Both times I pulled him with Radaere, did a little damage and cast Vim a lot to generate extremely high aggro. Then I engaged with Susvain and feigned every time it popped. One kill gave me an assist penalty and one did not. I expected an assist penalty on both kills, and the mechanism that Eisley posted in another thread (you only cause penalties if you feign while the mob is aggroed on you) would have resulted in no penalty on either kill.

So yeah I thought I knew how it worked but it appears there's more to it.
 

Chakekik

Dalayan Adventurer
I always thought it was if a monk did a certain % of the mobs hp, but this was a long time ago I heard this and I could just be wrong
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
Any word on whether it would be possible to change the Round Kick - Tail Rake - Round Kick for Iksars into something like the human version? Currently it's single target 210 nuke with 3 tick poison resist debuff and small mana drain vs AOE 15% slow, 10% cast slow, 200/tick DOT. I'd use the second one pretty frequently but can not think of any time I'd use the Iksar version as it stands.
Quoted post is from 10 months ago. Maybe you'll have better luck than me Tevinter.
 

huey

Dalayan Elder
Kinda crazy how much less useful one of those is than the other, heh. I've heard the combo system was being scrapped for something different maybe, so it probably might not matter, but while we're making plugs for stuff, I'll put in another shameless plug for changing combo starter from round kick to flying kick so we can at least use the stronger attack again and not keep the second class tome completely useless. /shrug
 

Tsun

Dalayan Beginner
I am just getting into my 20s here, but as its been said, for me leveling, there is no point in doing anything other than the roundkick dps rotation. all other combat skills are sacrificed at present.

Also - I have noticed the issue with the rotation dropping if you switch targets. I think it may have something to do with being out of the hit box range for the next kick in cycle, but I have noticed it seems a lot harder to initiate a new combo when the first one fails for some reason.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
When you initiate a combo, it is supposed to guarantee that your next two special attacks always hit so your combo will complete, but yeah switching targets fucks this up often.

Once you get flying kick you'll probably use the lifetap combo in various situations but that's still only 2 out of the 8 or whatever combos that are worth using.
 

Gegen2

Dalayan Beginner
When you initiate a combo, it is supposed to guarantee that your next two special attacks always hit so your combo will complete, but yeah switching targets fucks this up often.

Once you get flying kick you'll probably use the lifetap combo in various situations but that's still only 2 out of the 8 or whatever combos that are worth using.
I've never had a problem because of switching targets solely. It's always been an issue where I'm in range of regular melee, but in that weird like 1 inch space where it won't tell me I'm oor of special attacks but they don't hit/miss or anything.
 

Tsun

Dalayan Beginner
I get the reason for why it misses, and I think you are right on it being the funky hitbox distance. I am occasionally seeing the issue of the next 2-3 kicks not beginning a new combo.
 

Daffie

Dalayan Pious Diety
I get the reason for why it misses, and I think you are right on it being the funky hitbox distance. I am occasionally seeing the issue of the next 2-3 kicks not beginning a new combo.
Are the kicks landing yet still not starting the combo? Many people have reported issues with streaks of kicks not being able to start combos because the kicks are not landing.


Kinda crazy how much less useful one of those is than the other, heh. I've heard the combo system was being scrapped for something different maybe, so it probably might not matter, but while we're making plugs for stuff, I'll put in another shameless plug for changing combo starter from round kick to flying kick so we can at least use the stronger attack again and not keep the second class tome completely useless. /shrug
Maybe it could be retooled to have both round kick and flying kick be interchangeable. I think they picked round kick because you get it at level 5 instead of 30 (maybe)...


only 2 out of the 8 or whatever combos that are worth using.
The haste one was actually worth using while it was broken and always staying up until FD... Honestly, I think it should be 're-broken' as the permanent state of this combo.
 

Tsun

Dalayan Beginner
Are the kicks landing yet still not starting the combo? Many people have reported issues with streaks of kicks not being able to start combos because the kicks are not landing.
Yup. 2-3 kicks will not land following a failure. Also - I have noticed, if I switch boxes to my druid and heal once or twice, then flip back to the monk, I will land a second kick in a combo, and then it will immediately say the timer was up and end the combo even though the second kick landed. Does this mean the timer starts from the first kick and you have to land all three specials in that 15 seconds or so?

When that happens, I seem to be unable to start a new combo on the same mob. I will have to start logging my text to confirm same I guess.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
So here's a list of stuff that has happened to monks since this thread started:

Bane damage nerf/rebalance never finished
Silence, Matron's Grasp and Spine of Entropy nerfed
H2H mod being imbalanced and lacking at the high end
Force of Body tome made essentially useless
Majority of combos still not worth using
Flying Kick mod buffed and reverted

I know Slaar isn't satisfied with the combo system and said a year ago that he'd be doing something new for monks. Since that is probably a major undertaking that may or may not ever happen, what are the chances of having some other things changed to improve the monk class in the mean time? There are a lot of ways this could be accomplished that wouldn't require as much dev effort as an entire system overhaul. (And personally I really like the combo system and think it would be worth keeping with a few minor changes).

My experience as a monk at the high end is basically that you're not worth a spot in 6mans or raids except for pulling, which is only necessary in a small portion of high end content. The raid/group is better served by just having someone box a ranger alt. The only way this would ever change is if monks were either

A) As much dps as the real dps classes
B) Viable tanks
C) Given enough utility to be worth their spot

I don't think A or B are likely or a good way to fix the class. But C could be done pretty simply through tweaks to the combo system or stances or itemization changes like glove procs (beastlords run into the same issues justifying their spots and could benefit from this too). And changing the Force of Body tome especially is long overdue regardless of what else happens.

So, is it possible to have the combo system tweaked a bit? Or for monks to get some meaningful utility added (which the combo system was supposed to provide from the start) in another way?

Hell, it could be as simple as changing the procs we get from stances 4 and 5. Right now stance 2 is a better dps stance than either of them. Change 4 to be a small gheal or rune or reverse DS or something and change 5 to be a similar group-oriented offensive proc of some sort. Give them enough oomf to actually matter and maybe monks could contend for a 6man spot other than pure dps.
 
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donfolstar3

Dalayan Master
1. Scrap combos
2. Make the innate procs on Monk specials more awesomer and almost 100% proc rate through AA (Disciple of the Body?). Basically bake the combo effects into these buttons so people will use them because nobody says "you know, I'll probably need a stun in 12 seconds". This would provide meaningful utility in another way.
3. Give Monk stances some love. Right now it is a dozen stances of rarely used, not used, and not as good as /s 2 (plus ethereal). Just spitballing, but maybe give Monks stances corresponding to the elements (Iksar monks are big into that) which take from existing stances to make multifaceted usefulness.
EX: Wind Stance - Is whirlwind stance + no backstab stance + a movement speed boost
Now just figure out something for Flame (+dps, maybe a proc that boosts others dps), Stone (hit slow and hard, +defense), Inner Moistness (might want to work on the name), and leave Ethereal more or less alone. Bam- a few specials that actually work and are useable as well as useful stances that serve the class that most makes sense for even having stances.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
Good suggestions. While I do like the potential the combo system has, I think that the various limitations of the system make it pretty difficult to balance it appropriately if it's going to be such a crucial part of the class. Having varied stances and individual effects from the special attacks would probably be a better overall solution.

Giving each monk special attack a different proc/effect that gains in potency via the Skill of Hand AA and Force of Body tome plus having several stances to choose between depending on the situation would be sweet.
 
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Silosobi

Dalayan Pious Diety
1. Scrap combos
2. Make the innate procs on Monk specials more awesomer and almost 100% proc rate through AA (Disciple of the Body?). Basically bake the combo effects into these buttons so people will use them because nobody says "you know, I'll probably need a stun in 12 seconds". This would provide meaningful utility in another way.
3. Give Monk stances some love. Right now it is a dozen stances of rarely used, not used, and not as good as /s 2 (plus ethereal). Just spitballing, but maybe give Monks stances corresponding to the elements (Iksar monks are big into that) which take from existing stances to make multifaceted usefulness.
EX: Wind Stance - Is whirlwind stance + no backstab stance + a movement speed boost
Now just figure out something for Flame (+dps, maybe a proc that boosts others dps), Stone (hit slow and hard, +defense), Inner Moistness (might want to work on the name), and leave Ethereal more or less alone. Bam- a few specials that actually work and are useable as well as useful stances that serve the class that most makes sense for even having stances.
These seem like cool ideas.

The combo system seemed really cool at first, but the fact that it seems like only 1 of them is used with any regularity is a problem. The delay before seeing effect makes it not really a reactionary thing, which are often the most fun/challenging skills to have.
 

donfolstar3

Dalayan Master
Since I enjoy acts of futility and spending more time thinking about a game than actually playing it (see post #204) I will expand on those ideas to give specifics to discuss and a blueprint for what might be a better way for Monks.

1. Scrap Combos
-This seems like a no-brainer at this point. Combos have not caught on and the system itself is fundamentally flawed and heavily skewed toward just doing more DPS. Planning desired effects two skill CDs out is the Spruce Goose of game design.

2. Make innate procs on Monk attacks more awesomer
-To me this is what Monks should have gotten instead of combos. There was this existing system that kind of worked but was underwhelming that was paved over instead of being fixed itself.
-A mix of the original effects and borrowing combo effects could [this part is the most contentious since everyone has different ideas I am guessing] look something like this:

Round Kick: Slow Time from the combo system (overhaste)
-gives low level monks something neat and makes RK worth using situationally
-Lore: you spin yourself into a furor

Tiger Claw: Taunt/Enrage (same as now)
-obviously useful when tanking so why change it
-Lore: you rake your opponent which really really stings

Eagle Strike: Stun 2 second... with a significant range
-can this even be coded? who knows
-makes pulling less dependent on wall splitting, sometimes
-gives monks an interrupt to replace loss of stance 13
-Lore: Ka... me.... ha... me.... HAAAAA (hahaaAAA)

Dragon Punch/Tail Rake: the DoTs from the combo system
-scaled accordingly, probably duration 2 ticks instead of 3

Flying Kick: Seven Sided Stomp (lifetap)
-numbers adjusted, of course
-provides extra DPS and life so that is cool
-makes the class tome Force of Body less fucking useless. heck, the tome could even scale up the amount tapped which would be a nice treat for everyone who has been sporting that waste of space the last two years.

2.1 Incorporate existing AAs though switch what they do:

Skill of Hand: Increases the damage of special attacks by XX%

Discipline of the Body: Reduces the Innate 50% chance of special attacks missing [which would be the new proc rate] by 50% per rank.
No AAs: 50% miss chance.
1 AA: 25% miss chance.
2 AA: 12.5% miss chance.
3 AA: 6.25% miss chance.
4 AA: 3.125% miss chance.
5 AA: 1.5625% miss chance.
-This leaves a small margin for failure, similar to FD not being certain.

3. Monk Stances revisited.
-
give Monks a few useful stances instead of a dozen stances which are mostly irrelevant
-base the stances on the elements because Monks are all about that kind of stuff (Iksars at least)
-mostly just combining existing stances to minimize effort and preserve anything people might whine about losing
-the combinations are generally beneficial but also creates some situational annoyances so that is fun

Stone Stance (15): Wall of Will (mez/charm/resists) + Crushing Blows (lose double attack for triple damage) + AC bonus?
-Crushing Blows seems like it would be much more useful at the low levels
-Earthy theme of slow hard hitting juggernaut
-Useful for tanking and DPSing various enemies

Whirlwind Motion (30): Raging Whirlwind (strike 4 foes) + Reflexive Stance (dodge/block from all sides) + movement speed bonus
-If you are spinning like a whirlwind you could dodge/block on all sides, yeah? also quick like the wind (it all fits so well!)
-Useful for pulling and rounding up mobs as well as aoe DPSing

Dance of Flames (45): Kinetic Focusation (fire proc) + Dance of Death (no avoidance, much riposte) + a debuff on the fire proc that increases damage
-both existing stances should have their rates reevaluated (increased, duh)
-the high risk tanking alternative to Stone Stance
-debuff could be AC and/or resists = possibly useful in raids

Spiritual Fluidity (55): Fluid Dodge (dodge missiles) + Cryogenetic Focusation (ice procs) + a gheal proc on the ice proc similar to beastlord pets
-brings some utility to the class
-"Inner Moistness" is a better name

Ethereal (60): Completely unchanged

Master's Stance (65): something like the existing 65 stance but with zero drain
-Monks should really have something analogous to Vindicator's stance just cause
-maybe the benefits of stance 2 and 3 without the downsides?

Every existing stance except Flurry of Blows (which sucks) is represented in some way or shape I think.

Anyhow that is my fairly cut and dry and probably not that difficult to implement idea for giving Monks greater utility and decluttering the class abilities/stances into something people might use.
 
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