Policy Questions Thread

[Nwaij]

Well, the way I see it an outside rezzer for an end game raid can help a guild skip content in the form of respawns, or even just rezzing people past certain mobs. There's competition for these mobs and another guild might be waiting for the people who wiped to give up, or take long enough that they pass the timer set up for wipes.

• Raid trash respawn is counted in hours (usually 8+), so repop isn't really an issue.
• Rezzing past mobs is content skipping and will be punished in it's own right.
• Claims on a raidtarget last for ~2h after any given wipe. If you can not recover in 2h, you prolly gave up anyways

 

[Syalara]

As much as I dislike many of the silly and pointless rules that have cropped up over the years here, this one is fine. As Nwaij said, your rezzer (in raid) can likely bind in the zone anyway, so suck it up and run the rezzer instead of asking for a rule to be modified. Sure, you could save some time by having an out of raid rezzer but is it really that much of a bother for a single rezzer in the raid to alter their bind spot for awhile?

That said...who really gives a shit?

The rule would be almost impossible to enforce as it pertains to Adepts anyway. Granted, SoD raiding is nothing but glorified Adept hunting in 2.0 anyway but since the Adept flagged mobs are usually in regular xp zones...who is to say that the out of raid person that rezzed somebody in was not just a kind dude who saw a player die and wanted to help out? Depending on the fight it is very possible for a rezzing class or caster to die a fair bit away from the actual adept and a passerby may honestly have no inkling a raid was taking place and rez them. Are people gonna start comparing IP's of the dead folks vs the rezzer? That would be a pretty sad day.

 

[Patrick1211]

I'm not arguing why the rules or there or even trying to change them. I was just looking for clarification from the people who make those decisions. Mostly, because I don't consider adepts and end game raids to be the same, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Tarutao]

They're both "raid" situations. Each Adept is different, but it would be very clearly non-kosher to do that in a raid on Lord Commander Ragarti. His location deep in Mielech B is part of the deal, and an outside rezzer helping skip past the surrounding mobs would be quite inappropriate. The remainder of the cases are situations where you can port back nearby or even bind yourself in the zone with the Adept. In either situation, an outside rezzer is inappropriate.

Randomly rezzing someone else's corpse is in incredibly bad taste and shouldn't happen anyway.

 

[Ravor]

Post 51

Bump. Noteworthy also should be, low level alts in wars. Unless I'm mistaken, a few months ago someone won roll on a war drop and placed the loot on their level 29. Sure the gray area is if that alt was in aggro range but we all know that the moment it is it'd be dead. The person likely had that character parked safely away. I'm not sure why the war leader didn't rule that loot right out let alone anyone reporting it. I would had but that was before I was aware of this thread apart from the standard rules.

 

[cats74]

It has been suggested to me that assisting lower level players on quests is not permitted. I thought I should check that as part of my guild event, that was part of the plan.

I did take a look at the section on "selling no drop items" and wonder if that would apply at all. This is the plan, subject to change now. I have been donated a Wyvern heart. I was planning on giving that to our grand prize winner, and escorting them around to collect the rest of the no drops. This is an added "extra" to the other stuff won in the <Moontree> guild contest, and obviously don't change for it.

Could someone assure me this is gonna be okay? Last thing I wanna do is get jailed for helping out because I was in violation of the rules.

 

[BeittilBonker]

As far as I know helping ppl with quest stuff is perfectly fine, going to zone X to kill mob Y and collect item Z for a person isnt bad. Just dont think about demanding to get paid for it.

It happens occasionally that ppl offer a person plat to help them, thats ok to accept if u wish. But asking plat for you help counts as selling no drop items imho.

 

[Kakos]

If you have a question about policy that is not covered in the threads already in this forum, or would like to point to a thread that should be here, this thread is here for your convenience.

Can we get some clarification under the beginning of this thread, or the raid rule thread under policies regarding the 2/3rds rule.

I and a number of people were under the impression that the 2/3rds rule was more to do with the issue on if there was a conflict on which guild had claim rights to a zone. That if there was no conflict over it, it didn't matter as long as you had enough people to get your groups in.

I've been looking under policies, and I don't see anything that clarifies this. So I did a search under SoD disussion and I found the following thread.

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=17429&highlight=2/3rds

The thread was not created by a GM, and in it there was a lot of "we're really fuzzy on the issue" but if you read through the entire thread you get the gist that GMs want the raid forces to have 2/3rds of members keyed or it is considered content skipping.

Anyway, my point is that there was an honest misunderstanding on the rules last night, and although this is a strict liability offense it would be nice if the rule was posted clearly by a GM in the proper section.

Also, so there is no confusion, does that mean to do Duke thanes in Mercy, we need to have 2/3rds of our raid force fully keyed?

 

[Dinadass]

We had a similar issue in ToT last night. The first Farhag mini was up, nobody else was in zone or there to dispute it or whatever. Dev-Slaar showed up and checked to see if we had 2/3 of the raid flagged, and we didn't have enough so we were told to leave.

I was also under the impression that if there wasn't another raid force contesting a mob that it didn't matter, but Slaar said it is still classified as skipping content regardless. Can't say that I think it's a good policy but them's the breaks I guess.

I don't think you need 2/3 keyed for deeper CoMercy, just like you don't need to have 2/3 of a raid with the nightmare mirror to do dis/byw/sisters, or 2/3 of a valor b raid to each have a key. However, 2/3 of your raid does need to have done the earlier fights in the zone that give the orbs/keys. That's the case with Valor B anyway, so I'd assume it's the same elsewhere.

 

[Cyzaine]

City of Mercy does indeed follow the 2/3 rule, just as EVERY raid zone I know of does. That you weren't caught doesn't make it right.

 

[Kakos]

City of Mercy does indeed follow the 2/3 rule, just as EVERY raid zone I know of does. That you weren't caught doesn't make it right.

Wow.. guys please make this clear then, I guarantee you people are not intentionally breaking rules.. A ton of us are fully keyed for Mercy... but 2/3rds of us.. I would have to check but doubt it.

Can someone please edit the first post in the Raid policy section and spell it out.. because it is one thing to say ignorance is no excuse, but it's not fair to jail people for it if you don't at least post the rules.. this is not something you would intuitively think you were doing wrong.

 

[Dinadass]

City of Mercy does indeed follow the 2/3 rule, just as EVERY raid zone I know of does. That you weren't caught doesn't make it right.

The nameds only drop 1 orb per kill, don't they? Meaning a guild would have to kill each one 12 times before being allowed to kill the next?

Or does 2/3 of your raid have to have done the previous nameds before, but not necessarily have been awarded the orb? That would seem more in line with how nightmare works.

 

[Vartenaal]

could we get an update on the 6man content in ikisith? what is/isnt 6 man, what has wings etc

 

[Salarus]

The nameds only drop 1 orb per kill, don't they? Meaning a guild would have to kill each one 12 times before being allowed to kill the next?

i'm 99% sure it's fine as long as the player was there to kill it, so you'd only need one orb if my understanding is correct.

As per the 2/3rds rule, that shit has been around for a very long time and I knew about it the second I hit PoN and OP, no idea how it has evaded so many apparently. It would be nice to have it put in this thread though.

 

[Kakos]

The nameds only drop 1 orb per kill, don't they? Meaning a guild would have to kill each one 12 times before being allowed to kill the next?

Basically it would go like this

Herga - Kill 12 times, once you have 12 people then you can go to inner temples
4 Bosses of Inner temples - Kill them 12 times each (48 boss kills)
Tidemistress 1.0/Hymmaster - Kill them each 12 times each (24boss kills)

That's 84 boss kills before you can do Duke Thanes.. that's if you keyed the same 12 people.

 

[Cyzaine]

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=17429 is the most recent official ruling on the 2/3's rule I could find. Probably should be stickied, but it's not a new rule.

To clarify the 2/3's rule further, since the information is spread out...


Guild A beats the first key mob for comercy. Bob loots the key. Your guild is considered keyed, even though only 1 dropped and Bob got it. You have proven that your guild is capable of moving forward.

Later Bob leaves the Guild A and joins Guild B. Guild B hasn't killed the key mob. To use Bob's key is illegal. Guild B would be considered content skipping, and would likely have any earned loot revoked.

Later a PuG raid starts up. Guild A sends most of their members in, and they hook up with other folks, including Alice who already has the key. In this case the 2/3's rule comes into play. Have 2/3's of the participants participated in whatever it takes to be keyed/flagged? If not, then moving forward is considered content skipping, and your loot is subject to be revoked.

Further examples include, but are not limited too...

• If your guild hasn't killed Taeshlin, you can't go past him into IP
• If your guild hasn't killed Herga, you can't go to the courtyard
• If your guild hasn't beaten Dis, they can't go to Before You Wake

BUT

• If your guild has killed Herga, and you get a few new members, you are fine, even though not everyone has a key.
• If your guild has killed DotO, you can all go into Caverns of Darkness, even though you only have 6 keys.

'Keying' is a lazy, deceptive term, and has little to do with the physical key.

The 2/3 rule primarily comes into play in mixed guild, guild merging, or severe guild reconstruction situations. Otherwise your guild is considered the entity who overcame the challenge.



Of note, since some of you like to know the reasoning behind this sort of thing, is that the only viable alternative to this is individual key and flagging. That way its very clear, without question in fact, if you belong in an area or not. Now I think we all remember Vex Thal and know how NOT fun that was, and to a lesser extent the zerg fest that was PoP flagging. We obviously don't want that, yet we still believe in progression and making you earn this sort of stuff. The 2/3's rule is a compromise towards that, and serves fairly well in that regard. A bit ambiguous at times? Maybe. But certainly far, far more convenient than the alternatives.


Also lets head off some questions I foresee.

What happens if 10 of us are keyed, but 8 of us are not!?
No matter the reasoning here (guild reconstruction, alts, etc) this will have to be investigated by a GM. 2/3 is a rule of thumb, not the rule, just for these sort of cases. Depending on the circumstances it may be deemed allowed, it might not be. If you don't want their to be a question, make sure the super majority of the guild is keyed/flagged.

What zones does this count for?
All 18 man raid zones that allow you to to skip encounters, without exception. I am hesitant to comment on relevant six man areas (cmal comes to mind), don't believe they fall into this from prior experience.

 

[Sagiscorpius]

Ok, someone told me that when making a new guild. Even tho all your toons are flagged and meet up to the 2/3 raid rule. That we have to reflag anyway. Sorta doesn't make sense. Since you can't hail the spirits in tot over again to get the flag. I just want to be clear here. Cuz not one person in the guild doesn't have flags.

 

[Allielyn]

Ok, someone told me that when making a new guild. Even tho all your toons are flagged and meet up to the 2/3 raid rule. That we have to reflag anyway. Sorta doesn't make sense. Since you can't hail the spirits in tot over again to get the flag. I just want to be clear here. Cuz not one person in the guild doesn't have flags.

If every single one of your mains are flagged, then you don't need to re-do the content. It wouldn't make sense for us to force overgeared guilds to go back and re-do GotSS just to do their IP or IS content in prison. But, if your guild is on the threshold, and 2/3 have keys but you're a new guild, then your guild, as an entity, needs to do the content that gets you into the places you're raiding.

A little bit of common sense here goes a long way. Obviously we don't want to create congestion in tiers 3-5 when a new guild forms with many tier 7-8 players. But those players really should do any tier 6/7 flagging if they want to do tier 7/8 content.

 

[Syalara]

If every single one of your mains are flagged, then you don't need to re-do the content. It wouldn't make sense for us to force overgeared guilds to go back and re-do GotSS just to do their IP or IS content in prison. But, if your guild is on the threshold, and 2/3 have keys but you're a new guild, then your guild, as an entity, needs to do the content that gets you into the places you're raiding.

A little bit of common sense here goes a long way. Obviously we don't want to create congestion in tiers 3-5 when a new guild forms with many tier 7-8 players. But those players really should do any tier 6/7 flagging if they want to do tier 7/8 content.

I am completely confused by this.

The 2/3 rule was put into place to ensure that the majority of a raid has already completed access/flagging to whatever content they wish to go after. Why should guild tag matter? Were it a PUG all that would be taken into account is if 2/3 have or have not completed the required content/flagging previously, right? Why hold people accountable to a higher standard simply because the tag changes? If 2/3rds have keys/are flagged/have completed the previous content even if under a new guild tag...why should they have to redo it?

I am sure its not a major issue really but why have this caveat to a rule for new guilds?

What am I missing?

Common sense means different things to different people apparently. To me common sense says that if 2/3rds of a PUG or existing guild or newly formed guild have completed the prerequisites for whatever encounter is in question, then they should be able to just do it.

 

[Salarus]

If every single one of your mains are flagged, then you don't need to re-do the content. It wouldn't make sense for us to force overgeared guilds to go back and re-do GotSS just to do their IP or IS content in prison. But, if your guild is on the threshold, and 2/3 have keys but you're a new guild, then your guild, as an entity, needs to do the content that gets you into the places you're raiding.

A little bit of common sense here goes a long way. Obviously we don't want to create congestion in tiers 3-5 when a new guild forms with many tier 7-8 players. But those players really should do any tier 6/7 flagging if they want to do tier 7/8 content.

So you're saying that say, a new guild that just formed of t9 people who doens't have *every* main in the curret raidforce flagged for say, Mephar, would have to do all the content up to it? Or am I missing the point entirely?