Policy Questions Thread

I don't see how there's a problem with someone wanting to make it worth peoples time to join his raid when he's going after quest items. Ruach said in his OOC messages he was aiming at mobs which drop little other than the quest items he's after. however i do understand how hard a rule it would be to enforce, because it's basically splitting hairs but he was by no means purchasing no drop items. he was, as he said, providing an incentive to those willing to help him farm for a quest item that doesn't doesn't bring good exp/plat or loot. Its hard to motivate people who aren't guilded with him or receive any benefit from doing so otherwise.
there has got to be a way to make what ruach wants to do, legal, cause i see no problem with trying to gather a raid force to go kill trash in a planar zone, he was merely trying to expedite the process and perhaps get some better players who were LFG in athica to join him for a small financial incentive.
 
bignirish88 said:
I don't see how there's a problem with someone wanting to make it worth peoples time to join his raid when he's going after quest items. Ruach said in his OOC messages he was aiming at mobs which drop little other than the quest items he's after. however i do understand how hard a rule it would be to enforce, because it's basically splitting hairs but he was by no means purchasing no drop items. he was, as he said, providing an incentive to those willing to help him farm for a quest item that doesn't doesn't bring good exp/plat or loot. Its hard to motivate people who aren't guilded with him or receive any benefit from doing so otherwise.
there has got to be a way to make what ruach wants to do, legal, cause i see no problem with trying to gather a raid force to go kill trash in a planar zone, he was merely trying to expedite the process and perhaps get some better players who were LFG in athica to join him for a small financial incentive.
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thats basically the ethics behind my point, I am not even talking about tons of pp like a couple k per item to be lotto'd, just to provide some other then absurdly anemic exp as a reward for helping me.
 
ruach said:
thats basically the ethics behind my point, I am not even talking about tons of pp like a couple k per item to be lotto'd, just to provide some other then absurdly anemic exp as a reward for helping me.
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Kill Wormwood or w/e while getting your quest pieces and let the p/u peeps roll on the loot like a normal p/u raid.
 
Renshu said:
Kill Wormwood or w/e while getting your quest pieces and let the p/u peeps roll on the loot like a normal p/u raid.
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Yes, but you see the trash is up when the raid targets aren't therefore it easier to arrange a pug raid for trash farming, and you can kill just trash with less people.

Besides no one has answered the question "If it is my pug raid/group and can assign loot as I see fit, how it it wrong to auto myself the items I want (which no one else on the raid has a claim to or could even use) and then offer a pp lotto at the end??"

I am not selling something: "no drop loots" which is the rule.
 
Pretty sure you're fine. So long as everyone knows thats the loot rule at the begining. And if you're farming for your vah sword, shoot me a tell when youre trying to get a pug, I'll help with that.
 
As long as loot rules are well established at the beginning, and everybody agrees to them, you can raid with whatever loot rules you want, including reserving specific potential drops for your player.

But

You cannot distribute anything to the raid that did not come from the raid; i.e. that is not explicitly loot. Platinum that is explicitly looted within the raid can be distributed among players that did not win items if you so choose; this could be considered similar to a "split" among group members at the end of an exp session.

However, you cannot pay the players in the raid from platinum or items on your player or in your bank for helping you achieve any raid-necessary objective. If we find you have done this, we will revoke your item or items; and you won't get your money back either.

If the line is too confusing for you guys, we'll disallow payment for services as well. Consider that a warning.
 
Allielyn said:
As long as loot rules are well established at the beginning, and everybody agrees to them, you can raid with whatever loot rules you want, including reserving specific potential drops for your player.

But

You cannot distribute anything to the raid that did not come from the raid; i.e. that is not explicitly loot. Platinum that is explicitly looted within the raid can be distributed among players that did not win items if you so choose; this could be considered similar to a "split" among group members at the end of an exp session.

However, you cannot pay the players in the raid from platinum or items on your player or in your bank for helping you achieve any raid-necessary objective. If we find you have done this, we will revoke your item or items; and you won't get your money back either.

If the line is too confusing for you guys, we'll disallow payment for services as well. Consider that a warning.
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Since there are no "raid targets" involved so clearly your rules about rewarding a players with items obtained only from the raid cannot apply, this is simply7-18 players exping off trash mobs


So your saying I cannot create additional incentive for a player to help me with this one single type of button pushing. Compared to all the other types of button pushing it is permissible to pay to do?

You still have not answered my question: When arranging a "pug raid/exp group" with clearly defined loot rules who is "selling no drop items"

Just tell me who Is selling the no drop items, because I cannot see a chain of ownership.

A sale does not exist, this fits exactly within the context for paid leveling or other such services like buying a port or a buff or a craft combine.
 
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ruach said:
You still have not answered my question: When arranging a "pug raid/exp group" with clearly defined loot rules who is "selling no drop items"

Just tell me who Is selling the no drop items, because I cannot see a chain of ownership.

A sale does not exist, this fits exactly within the context for paid leveling or other such services like buying a port or a buff or a craft combine.
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You are paying to obtain a drop. The raid you put together, therefore, is selling it; it just doesn't happen to be a pre-existing entity before you assemble it. In the end it's the same situation as a raid selling loot rights for an item, it's just that you are putting together that raid for that purpose.
 
GuiardoTuneweaver said:
You are paying to obtain a drop. The raid you put together, therefore, is selling it; it just doesn't happen to be a pre-existing entity before you assemble it. In the end it's the same situation as a raid selling loot rights for an item, it's just that you are putting together that raid for that purpose.
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As stated before :Loot distribution is up to the organizers.
This is not targeting raid mobs, merely trash players exp of of raid trash on a regular basis.
players #7-18 are merely assisting me to kill the trash, I can pay people how i see fit for this service. I am not buying anything, in fact do to the lotto mechanic no single player can claim they have a definite claim on payment at all.

The raid has nothing to sell to me because:
1. It is my raid all the loot belongs to me, therefore they cant "sell" me anything
2. The players before joining the raid do not have any rights to the loot before joining the group/raid be

By your logic any combination of players has some sort of right to any and all loot simultaneously.

Furthermore:
This is really a moot point because of the age of EQ and game design "no drop" quest items simply represent a flag be it for a single kill or a kill X based on probability.
 
ruach said:
As stated before :Loot distribution is up to the organizers.
This is not targeting raid mobs, merely trash players exp of of raid trash on a regular basis.
players #7-18 are merely assisting me to kill the trash, I can pay people how i see fit for this service.
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Actually, you can't according to the server admin. ;) Loot distribution is fine. Your own PP is not loot distribution, as it's not loot.

I am not buying anything, in fact do to the lotto mechanic no single player can claim they have a definite claim on payment at all.
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But they have a chance at that claim. If you're not buying anything, do it without paying any of your own PP and/or items, and everyone is happy! If you're supplying PP or items, you are indeed paying. You are getting something, and in return you are giving something. Just because it's not a pre-identified individual doesn't make it any less of a sale. And trying to find a hole in the ruling will not make it any less of a punishment if you're caught.
 
GuiardoTuneweaver said:
Actually, you can't according to the server admin. ;) Loot distribution is fine. Your own PP is not loot distribution, as it's not loot.



But they have a chance at that claim. If you're not buying anything, do it without paying any of your own PP and/or items, and everyone is happy! If you're supplying PP or items, you are indeed paying. You are getting something, and in return you are giving something. Just because it's not a pre-identified individual doesn't make it any less of a sale. And trying to find a hole in the ruling will not make it any less of a punishment if you're caught.
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People who join my pug raid have 0 claim to anything.
Since joining my effort the forgo any claim to loot.
Are you saying that any random combination of players has an absolute claim to any loot anywhere on the server at any time?
Therefore they cannot be selling me anything other then their helping "leveling"
These are trash mobs, there are no real loots every time i have cleared them its been 50pp max, and there are no random loots off substance.

I think the burden is on the people who don't like the idea of me killing trash mobs with more then 6 people, you need to show the harm I am causing, especially in light of the original intent of not selling raid slots to under tier people. Literally anyone who wants can port up and exp/farm the trash mobs.
 
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Please stop making random shit up and claiming that's what I'm saying.

Yes, anyone can port up and kill the stuff, but if you are claiming specific drops, you can't offer any of them any chance of getting anything of your own to do so per Allielyn's post. If you don't like that interpretation of the rules, please refer to the rules about this not being your sandbox. :toot:
 
GuiardoTuneweaver said:
Please stop making random shit up and claiming that's what I'm saying.

Yes, anyone can port up and kill the stuff, but if you are claiming specific drops, you can't offer any of them any chance of getting anything of your own to do so per Allielyn's post. If you don't like that interpretation of the rules, please refer to the rules about this not being your sandbox. :toot:
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My apologies if you took offense to how I applied your statements to my logic of the rules.

I am still waiting for a clear answer as to who is harmed by my proposition, and how this fits within the original intent of rule that being keeping undertier people from paying for raid slots.

Can you please indicate who the harmed party of my actions is?

My argument is that the offering of the lotto is completely disconnected from the obtaining of any items, because the other members of the raid have severed any interest they might have by joining the raid. They simply act as a paid group members, payment being highly variable.


According to what you and her have said the following should be acceptable:

So if for example i arranged a pug raid, with no claiming of the loot. Then it would be legal (for me to give away my money) because according to your logic the raids "claim" is still intact? at that point i would simply be offering a lotto for fun, since there would be no relationship between the two.

I could even offer a nominal "grouping fee" payment to those willing to help. That would be entirely legal as well from what Allielyn has said.
 
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It doesn't "hurt" anyone, to macroquest yourself to 65 to save some time, but it's still against the rules.

Make some friends who will help you without being paid, then circumventing the rules on buying and selling raidloot won't be an issue.

ruach said:
According to what you and her have said the following should be acceptable:

So if for example i arranged a pug raid, with no claiming of the loot. Then it would be legal (for me to give away my money) because according to your logic the raids "claim" is still intact? at that point i would simply be offering a lotto for fun, since there would be no relationship between the two.

I could even offer a nominal "grouping fee" payment to those willing to help. That would be entirely legal as well from what Allielyn has said.
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Actually, what Allielyn said was:
Allielyn said:
If the line is too confusing for you guys, we'll disallow payment for services as well. Consider that a warning.
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Not to chillville shit-up this thread, but...

Man, look here.

I gave you spawn timers on several contested vah mobs.

I asked if that was worthy of the "bounty" you were offering, and you said "Payment is only on successful drops."

Your intent is obvious, half the server knows you've been buying your way through the vah quest for months. Stop trying to use your non-functional stoner brain to loophole around the rules.

PS Where's my money for those spawn timers?
 
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So wait, I'm confused now. Can I hire some lowbies to clear only specific mobs in unnamed lowbie areas, so that the things I need drops off might spawn (shared spawn), or not?

If not, the likely course of action would be me killing everything to get my stuff spawned, and I really don't think THAT is how things are supposed to work.
 
Nwaij said:
So wait, I'm confused now. Can I hire some lowbies to clear only specific mobs in unnamed lowbie areas, so that the things I need drops off might spawn (shared spawn), or not?

If not, the likely course of action would be me killing everything to get my stuff spawned, and I really don't think THAT is how things are supposed to work.
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The intent of the rule is to prevent people from paying other people for items that they would otherwise would not be able to get. Your example is completely outside the scope of intent, since you can obviously achieve the same thing without paying others.

Ruach's example, however obtusely he is paying others, is exactly what the rule was meant to prevent; paying other people for items that he would otherwise not be able to get.

As Tyrone implied, it has nothing to do with anyone else being harmed in any way. Items that are meant to be buyable are not no drop (with the exception of Thaz essences, and that's for the convenience factor); No Drop items are not meant to be buyable, directly or indirectly.
 
Is it ok to have someone outside the raid rez after wipes on adepts?

I get why it's bad to do it on end game raids, but I don't think it hurts anyone on adepts.

Just looking for some clarification! Thanks.
 
Patrick1211 said:
Is it ok to have someone outside the raid rez after wipes on adepts?

I get why it's bad to do it on end game raids, but I don't think it hurts anyone on adepts.

Just looking for some clarification! Thanks.
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Why should there be any difference between endgame raids and adept raids? Even more so, in quite a lot zones with adepts, you (your rezzer) can bind.
 
Well, the way I see it an outside rezzer for an end game raid can help a guild skip content in the form of respawns, or even just rezzing people past certain mobs. There's competition for these mobs and another guild might be waiting for the people who wiped to give up, or take long enough that they pass the timer set up for wipes.

With adepts you're not really competing against anyone but the mob, as I've never seen more than one raid forming for any one adept. So an outside rezzer would just help save time.

The difference, in my opinion, is that you aren't hurting anyone with adepts. Against the letter but not the spirit, so to speak. I've seen it done before so I just want to make sure that's cause they don't care or they've just never had it reported.
 
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