Paladin single target aggro.

S

Snake

Dalayan Elder
Are there any focus on the lack of Paladins single target aggro?

AE wise Paladins are just fine. The AE aggro they do keep mobs off healers and as long as mages and Wizards dont go to all out, Paladins can usually keep ok aggro on all.

But the single target taking beating, they struggle, to say the least. So i really hope that there are some changes in store for the Paladins.


Also it seems to me that the Murk spell is completely useless. So perhaps change this spell to a better single target aggro spell. At best something that will make us de-mem our lvl 55 single target blind...
 
So you want them to be excellent single-target agro tanks as well? What are you going to give SKs if you're going to be master of single-target as well as multi-target tanking?

Different tanks have different kinds of roles. Groups have to make adjustments based on what class they have tanking. I know with my shaman I cast debuffs immediately or even on the pull when I have a warrior tanking because I know he's going to get that foelock down and the mob won't be on me. With a paladin I know I need to wait a few seconds for him to get a blind / stun down before I can go nuts. It's a difference in playing style, but it doesn't mean that paladins are broken. I don't see any changes being made to paladins as they are.
 
pavowski said:
So you want them to be excellent single-target agro tanks as well? What are you going to give SKs if you're going to be master of single-target as well as multi-target tanking?
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Never in the OP did he suggest making paladins master of single-target aggro, he just said that he thought it could be better.

I begrudgingly agree with the OP. In the high end I find myself constantly blowing through my mana bar at a very high rate resulting in me needing to med far earlier than any healers/casters that I group with (and this is with capped FT, Spiritual Bliss, JB, and WoN). Anyone in FWF can attest to this.

I think the area where Paladins suffer the most is pulls of 2-3 mobs. A SK has no problems keeping the assist target locked down while also generating aggro on the additional mobs in an efficient manner. The only way for a Paladin to not lose aggro on the assist target while also generating aggro on the additional mobs is to utilize aoe aggro spells that result in inefficiencies when used in repetition on pulls of 2-3 mobs (see: just about every pull in Citadel or BQ).

I think that Paladins as a whole are an awesome class and can be extremely powerful when played correctly.. however, this is definitely an area that I feel has been neglected.

And yes, I agree, the murk spell is useless. I have suggested a number of really cool ideas that as far as I can tell have not gotten much of a response from the player base or the staff.
 
I can't say much about the murk spell other than the only two paladins I've ever heard mention it said they'd never use it. As far as the agro goes, I'd think they could use some kind of boost. As a monk, if I'm boxing anything I have to constantly swap back to lose agro with nothing on but autoattack if a paladin tanks half the time. I mean, I could see if I was on the monk only and trying to take agro or burn a mob, but I have to swap weapons for paladin tanks a lot of the time. They don't have to be nearly as good as the other tanks on single target agro at all, but they are still tanks, and as such should at least have better agro than most other non-tank classes imo. I don't know. Take anything I said for what you will, as I don't play the class, but this is just from another class's perspective.
 
Obscenitor said:
Never in the OP did he suggest making paladins master of single-target aggro, he just said that he thought it could be better.
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Paladin agro does seems to have gone to shite, I will agree with that. Was there a recent patch that nerfed Pally stuns? Even when using PAL blinds in a Iki zone. will cause mobs to fear path and produce a huge train.
As blind is nigh on useless in most Iki zones due to fear pathing, please look into it. perhaps a change to the Pally murk spell is in order.
 
When Cyzaine did that aggro event, I was able to get my paladin up to a little over 24k aggro, using every hate buff I could have on me, GoE, a 2 hander, and ran OOM and out of stamina in that one minute it took to pull that off. Keep in mind, I was even spamming decending during this and just hoping I resistied it more than the mob did. When I tried running with a normal spell set, with a sword/shield on, I couldn't evcen come close to 20k, which included spammming ST blind, DS, and AoE blind as well as bashing of course.

Septima iirc pulled in something like 50k? hate without HT during this same event.

Even when im' grouping incredibly trivial content with a 2 hander on, I still find myself having to spam blinds and stuns every time they are up or I will lose aggro to dps who arn't even going all out. Hell, on raids if I get a few too many resists in a row, I can almost guarantee i'm going to lose aggro on the mob.

Also: The only use for the murk spell i've been able to find as of yet is the Eternal Well, and even then it's hardly worthy of a spell gem.

Solution: Change the murk spell to a ST aggro stun with a 60-90S CD that has a decent amount of aggro. Considering the longish cd on it, Paladins woudn't be able to spam it and get anywhere near SK's aggro wise, but it would give them a slight bump to aggro in xp groups, as well as an "oh shit I just had like 5 blinds and 3 stuns resisted" button for raids.

I think the area where Paladins suffer the most is pulls of 2-3 mobs. A SK has no problems keeping the assist target locked down while also generating aggro on the additional mobs in an efficient manner. The only way for a Paladin to not lose aggro on the assist target while also generating aggro on the additional mobs is to utilize aoe aggro spells that result in inefficiencies when used in repetition on pulls of 2-3 mobs (see: just about every pull in Citadel or BQ).
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This is a very good analysis of the current situation. Paladin ST aggro isn't high enough to allow the paladins to switch between multiple targets and blind/stun to hold aggro, and AoE aggro is either very mana inefficient (decending judgement) or gets resisted far too often (word of the crusader) to be capable of locking down these adds. AoE blind is useful, but still gets resisted a decent amount in iksith as well.


Hate on.
 
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The blind fear thing only happens when out of melee range. You can use blinds on mobs you are tanking just fine in Ikisith.
 
My biggest problem with paladin single target agro is how much I have to constantly spam to keep agro even when dps are not going all out. Single blind / divine stun / bash everytime they are up add in wave of light when really needed just to hold agro gets annoying when you want to cast healing spells. I thought the change to SK agro that made it tick over time was pretty cool maybe do the same thing to single target blind (or change the murk spell) so it is a longer recast agro over time weaker than SK. And yes murk spell makes me :( Even just make it a low resist single target stun with a long duration and moderate recast I could see meming that.

The true problem is that at high tiers DPS are doing ever increasing ammounts of dps/ago while paladin agro stays relatively constant, when knight one handers were nerfed it increased this disparity because the scaling source of knight melee agro was replaced by bash agro which is much more spiky and scales poorly with buffs / new gear that is not a shield. This was not as much of a problem for SK because their agro spells just do SO much agro it doesn't matter.
 
Any way to make knight agro scale better with codices? Or maybe just buff wave of light to be more agro if buffing single target agro is such a bad idea. Maybe just add agro back to their heals, that way they can still generate agro through ghot and such. I mean in all honesty, the agro from a ghot wasnt that game-breaking anyways.
 
Have to agree with Snake, keeping aggro with T9+ melee dps is nigh impossible even when spammng spells, AA stuns and bash as fast as my elderly arthritic hands can hit the buttons.
 
smadcatc said:
Any way to make knight agro scale better with codices? Or maybe just buff wave of light to be more agro if buffing single target agro is such a bad idea. Maybe just add agro back to their heals, that way they can still generate agro through ghot and such. I mean in all honesty, the agro from a ghot wasnt that game-breaking anyways.
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Making agro spells scale with codices would be awesome, imagine 20% more agro per cast... The problem with buffing wave of light is that many times I want to keep it up incase adds come mez breaks or some other shit happens and the mere fact that it needs to be in single target agro rotation is indicitive of something being wrong. I do remember the days when AoE agro was as simple as casting Ghot one time as you pulled, of course that was at about tier one, I don't know how much agro it really was. I think rewarding the paladin who is actively casting self heals and single target heals with more agro would be cool.
 
Did not expect this many people to agree. Seems that the "political correct" attitude is that all that paladins need, is more nerfing.

Anyway, i hope the Dev's see this, and according to the "aggro event" post, they already know about the problem.

btw...
I told a group i could bring my paladin for tanking citadel, and was turned down. "Paladins single target aggro doesnt work, sorry mate".
 
I noted the aggro issue with my adept killer pally alt. But I just assumed that with aa's it would be something that would work itself out. It seems that is not the case. I would never expect pallies to excel at single target aggro (like sk's do), but I would expect them to be respectable at it.
 
keeping this as short and sweet as possible:

I agree that ST aggro needs to scale a bit because DPS has gotten access to lots of new tomes and new spells, pets etc to generate dmg and aggro - the ST aggro has stayed the same for paladins (besides the ability to get the glyph). A twofold difference in the aggro generation contest seems a bit much imho.

the murk spell is terrible, even if it didnt cost so much mana, there are still better and more efficient ways of getting aggro instead of using that spell. i have yet to see an encounter where it would be useful.

people whining about having to cast spells to cast aggro - its your fucking JOB as a KNIGHT to cast spells to keep aggro off your group/raid.

Miffy:

"Making agro spells scale with codices would be awesome, imagine 20% more agro per cast... The problem with buffing wave of light is that many times I want to keep it up incase adds come mez breaks or some other shit happens and the mere fact that it needs to be in single target agro rotation is indicitive of something being wrong. I do remember the days when AoE agro was as simple as casting Ghot one time as you pulled, of course that was at about tier one, - NO IT WASNT - I don't know how much agro it really was - YOU COULD HOLD AGGRO BY JUST CASTING GHOT EASILY, THATS HOW MUCH. I think rewarding the paladin who is actively casting self heals and single target heals with more aggro would be cool. - constantly casting ST heals should not and never was a primary source of aggro. casting self-heals is something every paladin should do. thats what they're there for with their awesome low mana cost and sweet hp/heal recovered"

anyway, didnt mean to rant, but ya, a small boost or a way to scale the aggro would be sweet. also perhaps get some -resist check for Word of the Crusader, cause that really gets resisted FAR too much.
 
Goldfolk said:
Have to agree with Snake, keeping aggro with T9+ melee dps is nigh impossible even when spammng spells, AA stuns and bash as fast as my elderly arthritic hands can hit the buttons.
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so much so that boxing any other class that requires any amount of attention is a fucking pain in the ass
 
Vartenaal said:
people whining about having to cast spells to cast aggro - its your fucking JOB as a KNIGHT to cast spells to keep aggro off your group/raid.
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Paladins used to be "snap aggro". Also if i want to move a monster, i have to tell everyone to back off, cause if i move and they dont, even the mage pet will be on top of aggro....

Anyway, all i know is, i hate my Paladin now, he is no fun to play, and there are no spells i can get that fix it.
 
Snake said:
Also if i want to move a monster, i have to tell everyone to back off, cause if i move and they dont, even the mage pet will be on top of aggro....
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I've had this happen with warriors too, so it's not isolated to just Paladins.
 
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