No Drop item rot on Raids :)

[Zurash]

Hey guys, thought I would open a post specifically geared towards high end raiding as opposed to tmaps or otherwise.

I haven't seen 'proper' details released of this change, but is it possible to join the group/raid who killed/completed the tmap/raidmob and loot an item that dropped if you weren't there for the actual kill?

Currently, I'd say the above mentioned 'issue' re tmaps is seriously less of a hinderance than the effect on raids where people might bot a toon that isn't their own but is needed on the raid, then raid loot drops that they want for the character they sat out, but they now can't get? I don't know if this is the case or not... Seems like a huge issue to me though... Guess I should bring it up somewhere else...

(Posted by Phlit in the tmap thread, thought I'd bring it over for ya )

Phlit already brought up a few points I wished to mention. The first part of his post being the most important, because all else is moot if that is the way it will work. Are people able to join the raid if they missed the kill for whatever reason, and loot the mob still? I believe that is the way it worked on that other game (at least when I was raiding there) and that would probably be the most effective and simple solution if, as it stands now, people can only loot if they are there for the kill.

As Phlit stated, often a certain class may be needed (or not) dependant on an encounter, and that person may be asked to log in order to have someone else fill that spot. Another example would be if someone is bugged or crashes, or for whatever reason is unable to join the raid for the kill. (such as today, Kynd/Summah could not get on due to password problems and a bunch of int caster items went to rot that would have been great upgrades for her, but she did not join the raid to loot due to not being there for the kill) What happens if this is the case?

I can completely understand the overpowering aspect to all the tmap loot rotting, where level 40s can loot items from all the rotting 60+ maps, but that is a completely different aspect to the raiding game where pretty much everyone is 65 anyway and the loot isn't going to low level alts or anything.

Perhaps another way to fix the rot issue (if people cannot simply join a raid after the kill to loot) would be to flag certain zones/mobs as lootable only by level 65s. (or whatever level the encounter is geared at) I think that would again prevent the overpowering aspect that Wiz mentioned regarding the whole rotting loot thing being taken advantage of, but allow the items not to be wasted when people are making a legitimate effort to obtain them properly.

I just think raiders are a little penalised now with the current change to rot loots.

Thanks.

 

[Waldoff]

I agree overwhelmingly with Zurash, and add these points.

Raids are extremely bugged as of the moment. Half the time with people not raid disbanding as they log out, or bugging even if they do, sometimes people stick with the raid outside a group. Reforming the raid before every named to avoid people missing out on loot is a huge time sink if you are after multiple mobs.

Another is rotting loot. This change makes loot rott a LOT more, and for reasons other than not being able to find a buyer. If you are running toward a raid, and right before you zone in an item drops that no one else needs but you, you have to literally sit there and watch it rott just because you didnt make it in time for the raid.

I am not completely sure why this change was brought about, but I think it has implications that it was not meant to have.

 

[rab]

I didn't, and still don't really, like this change, but when I argued with Wiz he had some valid points. Selling off loot or getting rots from fights you weren't in is lame, I think we can agree with that, and it certainly does cheapen the "no drop" tag.

However, there are instances like you said where you're participating but not with the right character and you're "punished" for it. I couldn't win the argument, but maybe you can.

 

[Kynd]

I agree (not only cause im Zurashs wife) haha

With the raid limitations on numbers (only 36 in raid) this makes it very hard when asked to play different chars ect.

The raid bugs will make this very hard. I know on numerous occasions a group leader in the raid will LD and the whole group falls apart. Or the group leader will disband someone to go to another group and once again the whole group will disband.

I agree with the Tmap aspect (I am also to blame for OOCing loot rotting) If the Tmaps were changed and maybe leaving raids as they were.

 

[Zhak]

Reforming a raid before every named is seriously going to make me cry

 

[Wiz]

I haven't seen 'proper' details released of this change, but is it possible to join the group/raid who killed/completed the tmap/raidmob and loot an item that dropped if you weren't there for the actual kill?

No.

 

[Wiz]

Reforming a raid before every named is seriously going to make me cry

Considering there is no raid bug that randomly removes people, I don't see why you would have to.

 

[Wiz]

I agree overwhelmingly with Zurash, and add these points.

Raids are extremely bugged as of the moment. Half the time with people not raid disbanding as they log out, or bugging even if they do, sometimes people stick with the raid outside a group. Reforming the raid before every named to avoid people missing out on loot is a huge time sink if you are after multiple mobs.

Another is rotting loot. This change makes loot rott a LOT more, and for reasons other than not being able to find a buyer. If you are running toward a raid, and right before you zone in an item drops that no one else needs but you, you have to literally sit there and watch it rott just because you didnt make it in time for the raid.

I am not completely sure why this change was brought about, but I think it has implications that it was not meant to have.

Yes, loot is going to rot. Tough luck. People aren't supposed to get raid loot they can't possibly earn - if I was to accept the argument that rot is always a bad thing then I would have to abolish the NO DROP tag.

I can see that it sucks to be late to the raid and not get loot, but the system is perfectly fair. If you are there to kill a mob, you may also loot it. If you are not, you may not.

 

[Mythryn]

One of the things I see wrong with the NO DROP change are the ritual/archaic frags, which are rare enough already. Now if we don't have x class on a raid (namely Necromancer thx Desouza ) the frags just rot, instead of being able to log in a character that isn't attending, we are going to have to let valuable, rare and needed fragments rot and delay our progress into Sanctum (even though its not done, it would be nice to beable to pop in when it is instead of fucking around with the hardest trash mobs in the game).

Sadly, I don't know of a fix for this, because making frags droppable is retarded, so I guess its something that's going to have to be dealt with.

 

[Wiz]

One of the things I see wrong with the NO DROP change are the ritual/archaic frags, which are rare enough already. Now if we don't have x class on a raid (namely Necromancer thx Desouza ) the frags just rot, instead of being able to log in a character that isn't attending, we are going to have to let valuable, rare and needed fragments rot and delay our progress into Sanctum (even though its not done, it would be nice to beable to pop in when it is instead of fucking around with the hardest trash mobs in the game).

Sadly, I don't know of a fix for this, because making frags droppable is retarded, so I guess its something that's going to have to be dealt with.

I could always consider upping the drop rate on them a touch.

 

[tinkaa]

Couldn't tmap chests' "corpses" be made that you can only loot it if you are in the level range for it (AFAIK you have to be max 20 levels lower than the mob to be able to loot it). Or is it different for treasure chests because you have to bash/pick the lock and they're all same level?

Why not adjust this to 5 levels difference and allow all 65s to loot the mobs?
As far as I've seen, people have been locking their xp or changing it to AAs to attend some adepts, while being twinked with rotting loot.
Or just apply the 5 levels difference to (raid) mobs, excluding treasure chests?

I hope you understand what I mean, but I can't write it any better in English

 

[Zurash]

Considering there is no raid bug that randomly removes people, I don't see why you would have to.

I think the comment was aimed more towards the bug, if it is one, whereby people either crash/go ld during raids and don't come back, or even simply log without leaving the raid. At the moment if this happens the raid is short one spot that cannot be filled. Before the change it wasn't such a concern, if you were stuck out of the raid and missed the kill it made no difference ... you could still loot if a needed item was going to rot.

Now if the raid gets bugged like that you must reform otherwise people that are attending the raid but are locked out for whatever reason will no longer be able to loot. Whilst this may not happen on every single raid, it does happen enough to be a concern due to people logging different classes for different encounters, such as Zurash the sucky beastlord on a ranged fight being asked to log so another wiz could join, etc.

 

[Wiz]

A quick question about fragments and such. Do you even realize that you can just tag the relevant character to the raid, log them off,a nd have them log on and loot as necessary? loot rights only requires you to be in the same raid, not online or in the same zone.

 

[Waldoff]

This doesnt help the situation when the raid is either full or bugged full, wich is the case with ruin 90% of the time. Would it be possible to make it so only people in the zone during a kill could loot no drop items wether or not they are camped in or out? This would allow guilds to not have to worry during raids, but wouldnt let a tmap or cmal group auction off items that they get except to a very small audience. Could even make it so if you were camped in the zone at the time of death you could loot it also, allowing people camp their boxes when the raid gets full.

And as an edit, I understand that loot is supposed to rott, that is a key part of the game. Are you trying to stop only the people who were trying to make money off no drop loot, or trying to stop both them and the people who like to log on their friends or spouses when something drops that they could use? Even if you are trying to stop the latter, in the same fell swoop the change that is currently implimented hurts the raid games ability to effectively distribute the loot to its playerbase. Wether it be because of the raid being bugged full, because someone was asked to camp their main to let in a box we badly needed, or even if its just a latecomer running to the raid who desperatally wants something that is just going to sit and rot.

I understand the need for something to controll the people who get uber loot and try to auction it off, and if thats who you were trying to stop, you absolutally succeeded. The thing that bothers me though, is that guilds that regarded that as shitty in the first place are now taking a hit for it. We are the only guild that maxes out their raid every day, without fail. We really dont have the luxury of running in a ton of bots and camping them out still in raid (wich we know is what is going to happen with the guilds who can afford this.) Anyways, hopefully you can respond to my suggestion in my first paragraph, and I do appreciate you discussing this with us regardless of the outcome.

 

[shebearcub]

I'm nowhere near the raiding level of the people that weighed in on this issue so far. My guild is just starting in the raid scene and our raid encounters are much different. The whole game is changing at this point and we're in strange territory.

I may need to leave my druid to play my cleric if one of ours logs off and would now end up losing the possibility of needed upgrades on the druid because I did what needed to be done for the raid.

Or we want to find out if we had more firepower could we win a certain fight, so I log on my wiz to try it... even if we win then I lose anyway.

These are things that happen all the time for us while we figure out strategy and try new mobs. Our exploring and progression will be really limited by how well we can gear up our guilds. This is already hard enough and with these changes it will be even harder.

Unfortunately I have no viable solution to offer. I just wanted to offer my perspective.

 

[Haphesto]

It's been said a few times in the thread, but I'd like to reitterate that the concern is people being punished for playing different characters to benefit the raid, and raid bugs causing unfillable slots.

Instead of this new loot system, why not just make OOCing rotting gear a jailable offense.

 

[jedz]

I'm sorry Wiz if this makes me sound ignorant. But if there is a way around this change,

Do you even realize that you can just tag the relevant character to the raid, log them off,a nd have them log on and loot as necessary? loot rights only requires you to be in the same raid, not online or in the same zone.

Do you want only people who earned the loot to be the only ones who recieve it?

Now if we don't have x class on a raid (namely Necromancer thx Desouza Sad) the frags just rot, instead of being able to log in a character that isn't attending, we are going to have to let valuable, rare and needed fragments rot and delay our progress into Sanctum

Is this progress somehow different than how other people are now forced to earn it?

I can see that it sucks to be late to the raid and not get loot, but the system is perfectly fair. If you are there to kill a mob, you may also loot it. If you are not, you may not.

And finally if you were trying to stop people from selling off No Drop items, which i hope was at least a major part of your plan, with the workaround quoted above you have stopped only the guilds that were not doing that in the first place, and hinder their progress.

 

[Wiz]

Selling items was never the issue, leaving the items for raid stalkers to pick over was. No raid guild is going to bother enough to accomondate spots in their raid for people that follow raids around to loot rots.

I didn't think of the workaround at first, but I don't think it's such a bad thing - it enables people to gear characters that they have to keep logged out for guild reasons, but it prevents the mudflation caused by looting raid/tmap/named rots.

 

[volvov2]

What if you enabled more than 6 groups in the raid window, typically we have to reform because a leader of a group 'mysteriously' goes LD or has to log and transfering ownership of a group in raids rarely works. Heck, even after people have had to logged and *definately* raiddisbanded, after a wipe and rez, that person appears in the raid again, even though not in the group.

If you enabled 8 groups in the raid window, it would not unbalance anything because of the 36 man on the aggro list limit, hell, you cant even have more than 40 people in most raid zones...

 

[Wiz]

What if you enabled more than 6 groups in the raid window, typically we have to reform because a leader of a group 'mysteriously' goes LD or has to log and transfering ownership of a group in raids rarely works. Heck, even after people have had to logged and *definately* raiddisbanded, after a wipe and rez, that person appears in the raid again, even though not in the group.

If you enabled 8 groups in the raid window, it would not unbalance anything because of the 36 man on the aggro list limit, hell, you cant even have more than 40 people in most raid zones...

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